Rethinking Mindfulness: Strategies for Success in Sports and Business with Luke Doherty of Mindful Peak Performance | Episode 12

Today we speak to Luke Doherty, Managing Director at Mindful Peak Performance. Having trained as an elite rugby player and capped for England under-18s, Luke’s passion for marrying elite performance and mindfulness has now developed into the wellness space with mind-blowing results. Achieving advanced-level mindfulness training qualifications from Breathworks and the Oxford University Mindfulness Centre, he’s since been dedicated to creating and delivering bespoke mindfulness programmes for some of the UK's leading athletes and forward-thinking executives. He’s also the creator of a unique youth support network, bringing together boxing and mindfulness to engage and ignite disadvantaged young people, the results of which have been phenomenal.

Join us as we explore how Luke is challenging the traditional contexts around mindfulness; the questions around qualitative data vs storytelling and the shift in organisations' readiness to adopt mindfulness due to its impact on productivity and team resilience.

In this episode:

04:30 Luke's journey - from training with Buddhists to delivering for execs in London. 

07:49 Questioning the classroom setting – how conformity and environment impact on young people’s behaviour.

13:46 Positive impact of mindfulness on emotional clarity, personal experience, and individualised approach to definition.

20:27 Mastering mindfulness - being aware of thoughts, not engaging in them and choosing perspective.

24:02 The mind-muscle - how training the mind through meditation builds mental resilience and enables a better response to stress.

27:57 Boxing mindfulness training for youth workers and coaches across different communities. Embracing diversity and maintaining a clear structure.

31:58 Getting good at deep work and its relevance to leadership and productivity. 

You can connect with Luke Doherty here:

linkedin.com/in/luke-doherty-mindful-peak-performance

mindfulpeakperformance.com 

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the bounce back ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell [00:00:09]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on. So welcome to the Bounce Back Ability podcast. Today, we got Luke Doherty from Mindful Peak Performance, mindfulness legend in my eyes. What are you expecting, Rusty?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:23]:
I've heard lots about him. He's one of your kind of you've got, like, an entourage around you, haven't you, that do yoga with you and weights and mindfulness and all the like.

Simon Ursell [00:00:31]:
So I'm excited to meet

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:33]:
some of the, some of your entourage.

Simon Ursell [00:00:35]:
An entourage? Honestly, I don't have an entourage, but I've got some amazing I'm I'm very fortunate to have some pretty unbelievably great people around me. Luke is one of them, for sure.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:46]:
I mean, I mean, I'm just interested, really. Like, he works in business, works in sports, works with individuals, works with teams. I guess, there might be a point when I try and change the word from mindfulness to something else because I have a strange relationship with that word. I think it's a bit kind of

Simon Ursell [00:01:04]:
bit fluffy.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:05]:
No. I'm not sure if it's fluffy. I think people might just put it like it's just like a tagline that people use and Yeah. I I just wanna explore a bit more probably by what do you

Simon Ursell [00:01:13]:
some mindfulness to understand why that's agitating.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:16]:
Oh, wow. This is wow. This

Simon Ursell [00:01:20]:
is yeah. Now look.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:21]:
I'm I'm excited about it, and I'm sure, you know, we get a lot

Simon Ursell [00:01:24]:
of alerts from it. Yeah. I'm sure we are too,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:27]:
so let's get him on. Simon has now reset his computer 27 times, used used an expletive on almost 20 occasions, and defended the, authenticity of his antique bag. I think Religious bag. His religious bag. Sorry. I think you need a mindfulness coach. Unfortunately, we've brought one with us today.

Simon Ursell [00:01:49]:
Well, I'm incredibly microphone this coach here because if I'm completely honest, the microphones have been about as bad as they've ever been this morning. Just randomly turning off and on is completely out there. But yeah, I've got a religious bag. I don't know why you think my bag is religious. It's a leather satchel.

Luke Doherty [00:02:10]:
Sort of shamanic, I would say.

Simon Ursell [00:02:11]:
You'd say my bag's shamanic. Wow. Okay. That's pretty cool. I'm excited that I've got a shamanic bag. Anyway, we probably ought to say hi to Luke. Hello, Luke. Hello, everybody.

Simon Ursell [00:02:23]:
How are you doing? Do you wanna maybe just give yourself a little intro? Tell us a little bit about you and a little bit about Mindful Peak Performance. Yeah. So I'm I'm pretty interested in the kids.

Luke Gosher [00:02:32]:
Okay. So, yeah, I'm my founder of Mindful Peak Performance. We do three things. So we teach mindfulness to athletes, business leaders, and leadership teams. And at the heart of what we do is boxing and meditation, so our profits go towards supporting quite a radical combination in the mindfulness world that puts boxing and meditation together, physical and mental together.

Simon Ursell [00:02:52]:
Yeah. That's nice. I mean, having hung out with you, Luke, for a little while, I've seen the power of what you do with kids in some pretty challenging circumstances who get massive benefits from you. So, yeah, I just wanted to put that out there and say thank you for the work you did because it's pretty cool. And if you didn't know about it, go and look it up, Mindful Pete Performance. It's amazing. What

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:13]:
have you noticed?

Simon Ursell [00:03:15]:
Just kids who are having a really tough time using mindfulness, which I before before meeting Luke, I wouldn't have thought would make a massive difference to kids having a really difficult time. But having hung out with Luke and see what they do, it's it's ridiculous. I mean, it's they the results they've had are pretty astonishing, I would say. I mean, just taking people who are really struggling and helping them, just deal with all the nonsense they're having to deal with is And for for me,

Luke Gosher [00:03:44]:
it's like being if you're if when I was 16, if I was told to sit still and meditate and close my eyes, I would have said piss off.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:52]:
Like, low That's to our word. That's to our word. I don't think

Luke Gosher [00:03:55]:
a software was, but it's like, you can't I don't think you can expect young people or even adults to be able to to sit still. So this combination of being able to box, release physic, like anger, frustration, connect with that, then you've got an endorphin release, and then sitting and being still means something different when you're connected to your body. But if you've got mental health issues, you might you know, it's not even safe in some with some people too, sit and and do these practices. I'd also like to tell a story of how we started the the boxing mindfulness program, but

Simon Ursell [00:04:26]:
Love a story. Come on. Yeah.

Luke Gosher [00:04:27]:
So We're

Simon Ursell [00:04:28]:
we're into studies, are you? Know.

Luke Gosher [00:04:30]:
I spent, yeah, spent 7 years training in a in a Buddhist context. So I half of my, 4 months of the year, 3 months of the year, I'd be off on retreat. The rest of the time I'd be in London teaching mindfulness, and I and I trained clinically as well, to work with mindfulness. But it became very narrow. It's like, who can really do 40 minutes of meditation a day? Who can, like, this this religious framing of it was narrow, and I was, like, this doesn't feel right, this needs to get out into the world. So we we rocked up an estate in Layton. We got a bit of funding from the government, and we turned up to this youth this youth center. No one turned no young people turned up for the session.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:05]:
For our

Simon Ursell [00:05:06]:
international visitors, that's in East London.

Luke Gosher [00:05:08]:
East London. Yeah. And, but there was, like, there was 5 young people smoking weed at the side of the youth center. One of them was trying to start a fight with me, and we we went up to him and said, right. Do you wanna give this a go? And they they did. They did the first meditation. I don't know if because they were high, they they kind of like got into it. They did the first meditation, we did the boxing, we did the 2nd meditation, and they were they were soft, they were they were talking to us, they weren't angry, they there was a spark in their eye, and that's what gave us the confidence to keep going with it.

Luke Gosher [00:05:38]:
And then we delivered an 8 week course at a local boxing gym. 25 young people came down. 20 of them did the whole program, and the feedback was just awesome from the parents and the young people. So it's it's, I don't know, it's combining, like, yeah, combining, like, physical release with being still and, like, the power of those 2 together is is really cool.

Simon Ursell [00:06:01]:
It is really cool. I mean, I mean, big up to you, Luke, because I do think the stuff you're doing is just so impressive. And in in terms of bounce back ability, the theme of the podcast, I think, you know, being capable of, dealing with all the things and arrows and challenges that the world goes at you. Mindfulness just gives you that extra capacity, doesn't it, to to be able to to cope with that stuff? I mean, if you got I mean, I could bang on for hours about it, but you're the guest. Tell us some stories about, how how it helps you to become more capable of dealing with resilience?

Luke Gosher [00:06:37]:
Yeah. Well, I think, I mean, my own journey has been, like, crazy drive, like, from 10 to 18, and it was just play rugby for England. That's all I wanted to do. Didn't look didn't look at my mental health.

Simon Ursell [00:06:49]:
Yes. You played rugby for England under twenties, didn't you?

Luke Gosher [00:06:52]:
In the 18s.

Simon Ursell [00:06:52]:
It was. England under 18s.

Luke Gosher [00:06:53]:
Yeah. And, yes, that was my goal with with Glenn. Like, we both set out, but we were 11, and we were like, we wanna be we wanna be pro rugby players. I never made it as a pro rugby player, but my drive was just, like, intense. And then I finished rugby, then I went and did 2 degrees in law, and I hated law. But my drive again was just crazy intense. I had massive burnout after that and it was like, then I found meditation. It was like my drive still stays there, but I can now learn to be still and develop mental clarity, soften my emotions, and it's like this, it's like a, it feels like a superpower.

Luke Gosher [00:07:25]:
It's like I'm still driven. I'm still, like, quite crazy in that that way, but I've got this other edge to me where I can be still and clear my mind when I'm stressed. And I think bringing these, these, these skills into like high pressure environments, whether it's sport, whether it's leadership, whether it's young people in chaotic situations, that's what I want to pass on. Like it's and make that accessible.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:49]:
Just a couple of observations. I have no idea why we value conformity in children. It's the first thing I thought. Second thing is why would you take kids out of their normal environment? Sorry. Have them in their normal environment and then expect them to be able to do something differently. So actually, like, put them in a classroom on some chairs and then ask them to be mindful. It's probably quite a strange way to think about, doing this stuff. And then also why would you put such a high value on sitting down for kids? One of my most profound experiences was the day with a child when I started teaching, and I thought, well, this is boring and my knees hurt.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:25]:
So actually actually, for most of the day, actually not moving, not, you know, being in a in a place where you're told to sit versus, I guess, you're probably not practicing mindfulness in a being told what to do.

Luke Gosher [00:08:40]:
Yeah. And and also why can't you practice mindfulness while you're boxing? You're aware of your body. You come out of your mind. You're connected. It's like I was having a debate with someone yesterday in an organization, Like, what's boxing got to do with mindfulness? I'm like, if it's connecting you to your body and you're coming away from, like, thinking about the past and the future, you're that is what mindfulness is about. So it's like the the yeah. It's I just I really wanna break the the way that it's traditionally thought about and taught and make it, like, a total different image around it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:11]:
It's interesting. I know Kirk's been on the pod. I'm now starting to think of where my most mindful moments are, by the way, and and, there's a variety, but Kirk said, I do mindfulness whilst watching, Onlyfills and Horses. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:09:25]:
Well, mindfulness I mean, mindfulness can be when you want it to be, kind of. I mean, I I certainly having worked not with you, Luke, but with your with your great friend, Mia, who who helps coach me and helps me be more mindful. I would I would now I'm mindful when I wanna be mindful. She talks about Viktor Frankl, my favorite quote for Mia, which is, and I'm gonna get this wrong. I'm always quoting things wrong, but it's my inversion, which is, between, stimulus and action, there is a space. And in that space lies our freedom, which I absolutely love. So when I when I eat some food or whatever it might be.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:10]:
Or swear at

Simon Ursell [00:10:11]:
the microphone. Or swear at the microphone. Well, I definitely wasn't very mindful whilst I was doing that. But, yeah, there there might be a a space there where I can actually now I've been I mean, I'm far from perfect but I've got better and I'm able now to think, oh, do I really wanna swear at the microphones, do those kinds of things and I can it just gives me a better it gives me ability to to be a better version of myself. I know that's cliche, but oh my word it's worked.

Luke Gosher [00:10:38]:
What as a leader, does it give you more headspace around decision making, reacting to people? What I'm seeing with a lot of leaders is it's it's, there's quite a lot of pressure on leaders because a lot of people project onto you. People look at your body language. People, like, your reactions get amplified. Has mindfulness helped you in that area?

Simon Ursell [00:10:59]:
Yeah. I think one of the best stories about that actually is Tyler Grange and my mindfulness journey. Hanging out with you and thinking, oh, fancy a piece of this. And then, because I'm helping you, I work with Mia. Mia has helped me be more mindful. And then all the other guys at Tyler Grainge are thinking, what's happened to Simon? He's really, he's really chilled. He's really cool. And they're, they're asking me about it and going, well, I've been hanging out with me and doing this mindfulness stuff, and it's, yeah, it's really great, and it's it's really helping me.

Simon Ursell [00:11:31]:
And they get curious about it. And how many of the Tyler Grange leadership team are you working with now?

Luke Gosher [00:11:37]:
I think 5. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:11:38]:
Yeah. So there you go. And that's all on the back of just how I've been different can help them. And and now within the Tyler Grange team, there's loads of people getting involved in mindfulness because they've seen how it's affecting those guys. And it's I mean, there's some I mean, I won't name names, but there's some of the guys initially super resistant. Yeah. And what's all that what's all that nonsense? Who are now have been working with you for some time and absolutely massively into it. It's pretty cool.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:14]:
Can you pitch it to me? So, if it wasn't called mindfulness, what would you call it? And the second thing is, yeah, like, what's what's the benefit? So especially around some you know, people in, I guess, high pressure jobs being able to bounce back, deal with tough times, I guess, yeah, that pitch it to me.

Luke Gosher [00:12:32]:
Yeah. Well, I, yeah, I I wanna come up with a new word. Maybe it'll come out of this podcast because mindfulness Oh, let's talk about it. When I hear the word mindfulness, I'm like, mindful. My mind is full. That's not what I want. It it it there's something in the word that I don't I don't like. Don't have a new word for it right now, but for me, it's about,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:52]:
oh,

Simon Ursell [00:12:52]:
come on, Rusty. We've got to come out with the words.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:53]:
The space between empty space. They're the 2 that I'm thinking of.

Simon Ursell [00:12:56]:
Space between. I like that. A space between. Yeah. I don't know. I'm gonna come up with something. It's gonna it's gonna sit him. I'm gonna get mine for them.

Simon Ursell [00:13:02]:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:03]:
But but, again, sorry. The reason I asked that question around what other options would you have around the name is because I probably have a bit of a relationship with that word where I go oh that doesn't sound like it's either accessible to me maybe if I was a youngster but also like, okay. It sounds a bit like like I'm gonna have to sit with my legs crossed, which I can't do.

Luke Gosher [00:13:23]:
Yeah. Exactly. Automatically it's got the connotations on and for me as well, when I started it, I was like, this is a lot of shite. What what's and I was really resistant going I went on a retreat, and I was like, oh, woah. This is weird. And when I came up

Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:40]:
I wouldn't have called it a retreat, by the way, because

Luke Gosher [00:13:41]:
it's Well, exactly.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:42]:
Having this kid, triggering resties to that. Resties sweating.

Luke Gosher [00:13:46]:
This is really good information of it, because when when I first engaged with it, I was like, this is this is weird. My mind was like, no, no. But then the experience of that retreat, I could not deny what it did to me emotionally and how it made me feel and the clarity that I got. But I guess my mission is like, I wanna I wanna hear what what you think because when working with sports teams or leadership teams, I give a lot of space for them to define their own definition, and and write their own definition. We don't give out a clinical definition of mindfulness. We take people through a process of connecting to it in their own life. So for someone, it might be running, getting that feeling when you're in flow state. That's where mindfulness can take you.

Luke Gosher [00:14:25]:
But we all know, we all, you know, we all know what that feels like. So if you can start connecting to how you get that naturally in your life, then you might think, okay. Well I'll try meditation. I'll try this thing. And it's not a foreign mystical thing that Everybody knows what mindfulness is. Everyone has an experience of it.

Simon Ursell [00:14:42]:
Uh-uh. Yeah. I completely agree.

Luke Gosher [00:14:43]:
So it's about saying you you know this, and then if you do these practice you're gonna amplify where you already experienced that kind of flow, that kind of those those times in life where you're not caught up in your head. Where life It's like

Simon Ursell [00:14:55]:
I mean, it's like in sport, isn't it, when you watch someone like Messi play. He seems to have more time than everyone else, doesn't he? I mean, he's able to do stuff more quickly, think more clearly. I would say that's because he is a a mindful superhero. Maybe we could call it messiness. How about that?

Luke Gosher [00:15:15]:
Well, yeah. It's flow, isn't it? We, look, we all want we all want to live live a life where we're not caught up worrying in our mind, and we when we're connected to our body. So maybe a word is embodiment, because we according to Harvard who did did some research on mindfulness, 46.9% of the time we're thinking about things other than what we are doing. So we spend a lot of time thinking, worrying, analyzing, a lot of energy going out in that direction. But when you are connected to your body fully, you can't be thinking at the same time, and that's what mindfulness is primarily doing. It's getting you to connect with your physical experience and be with that. That's what creates the space. So it's landing in the body more.

Luke Gosher [00:15:54]:
And and and for athletes as well, that's that's a bit of a, you know, that's a bit of a superpower if you can become more embodied, not just through training, but through practices that help you connect with yourself.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:05]:
I guess there's a a couple of things that's led one was I was gonna ask you about the practices that you were talking about. The second thing I started to think about athletes and so being in flow, being in the moment is, like, quite helpful for athletes. However, I've spoken to players that have said and at halftime, I went and spoke to the analyst and told him to get the clips ready for the Monday because the coach was gonna, like, shout at me.

Luke Gosher [00:16:27]:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:27]:
So, actually, some of the, like, organizational stuff, some of the leadership behaviors can actually get in the way of people being their best selves. I'm sure they're not doing it intentionally, but that's something you've discovered.

Luke Gosher [00:16:41]:
Well, yeah. When I was working at Harlequin's, when they I would go in on a Monday and when they didn't win at the weekend, it was different. It was very different. So the culture changes week by week and that's a that can be a real head spin. But if you've got some tools to learn how to work with thoughts that take you off into very self sabotaging areas or very super judgmental areas and you can become aware of that and come back to your body and and not take your thinking process so seriously, you can take some control back from those situations. You're not, you know, cultures are cultures. We we can mature cultures, but there's always gonna be ups and downs. There's always gonna be reactions.

Luke Gosher [00:17:18]:
So each in each individual needs to learn how to manage those thoughts, understand those thoughts, because they're not always true. Right? And and and learn to then go into the into the performance.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:27]:
And what's your process? What's your process for and and I don't know why I've used the word process.

Luke Gosher [00:17:32]:
Well, it is a process.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:33]:
Simon E. Yeah, around I mean, guess, it starts with awareness.

Luke Gosher [00:17:42]:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:43]:
Then you're starting to talk about, like, what are the you know, how can they have some skills that'll bring them into the moment and then and then they would practice, I assume. Yeah. So

Luke Gosher [00:17:52]:
Yeah. So it's about, first of all, breaking the back of any resistance to mindfulness and meditation and getting a feel for it. So, like, starting to learn to take on someone's own terms. When I was working with a very high profile athlete, they were really into fly fishing. I was like, describe that to me. Like, that's, you know, that's just not the same thing as this meditation thing. So starting to realize that you know this in your life and then we start a meditation practice. What the thing about athletes is they spend a lot of time training, so they're already quite connected to their body.

Luke Gosher [00:18:25]:
Most of us spend a lot of time in front of screens during the day. So athletes, there isn't there's an advantage there already. There's a physical connection to the body. Once someone goes through a process of getting the stress relief benefits of mindfulness and being like, oh, okay. This is this is making me feel better. Then it's There's a motivation to start a daily practice or some kind of routine. And then it's about identifying where in life is the pressure building up? Where are you not developing awareness? Where are you hiding? Where are you not facing things? And then you start bringing more awareness into those moments and making better choices in those moments. And that's where energy starts releasing.

Luke Gosher [00:19:00]:
People start to get a bit more of an inner confidence in themselves and go, yes. So that's the kind of journey I go through with people. Getting them to really get this thing as a concrete thing that makes them feel better and more connected and then identify where in your life can do you need to develop more awareness? Where do you need to make better choices? Where do you need to create more space so you don't go down hamster the roots that you get into?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:23]:
That's almost like, like when Simon there with the sorry to speak. Just keep talking about the microphones, but but the but Simon had an opportunity to be metacognitive Yeah.

Luke Gosher [00:19:32]:
Well, exactly.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:33]:
Metacognitive. A couple of steps back

Luke Gosher [00:19:34]:
Is that a to

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:35]:
breathe whatever his process is.

Luke Gosher [00:19:38]:
Well, we're

Simon Ursell [00:19:38]:
all talking on the microphones now, so I think being controlled by a version.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:43]:
It's right.

Luke Gosher [00:19:43]:
Yeah. I mean, like but

Simon Ursell [00:19:45]:
I think you get frustrated. It's a good example, actually because I do I get frustrated. You get you get hot, you start getting annoyed, then you get a bit embarrassed because, you know, you're here doing a podcast and nobody can use the microphones. Rusty is bullying me about it. So it all starts to get a little bit stressful. But then actually I am, I am much more able now to to find that entertaining and not so I mean I'm maybe, I don't know, but it's a silly example. But maybe 5 or 6 years ago I might have got quite annoyed about it. But now I'm, I mean, it's funny and actually I'm pretty chilled about the microphones.

Simon Ursell [00:20:21]:
There's other other ways of recording I put on there.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:20:24]:
And everyone's having microphone moments, aren't they? Exactly.

Luke Gosher [00:20:27]:
Well, on the on the way here, like, of having that meta perspective where you can see the thoughts and not buy into them, I'm thinking, what am I gonna say on this podcast? What's Rusty gonna make me? What's Simon gonna say? Like, All these I can see all of these judgments. I'm, like, watching. I'm not buying into it. Just let it let it be there, but it's not but I'm also feeling quite happy. I'm smiling at that and being like, yeah, I can see that, but I'm not buying into it. So it's like, it just gives you this perspective where you can you can see a lot more, and you can choose whether you're gonna engage with a lot of the nonsense that's in the mind, because there is a lot of nonsense that go through our minds. And if we if we buy into it all and get caught in it all, it affects us physically, it affects us emotionally, and our clarity just

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:10]:
And and when helping people, like, some of the language, like, seeing more stuff is obviously as we get more and more stressed, we see less things.

Luke Gosher [00:21:16]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:16]:
But just that ability to would you put language around people? Like, people's mindset, would you get them to go, actually, tell me about that mindset. What you know, like, my my fly fishing mindset as an example.

Luke Gosher [00:21:26]:
Yeah. Well, I guess, I've not got language around it, but you've you've given me ideas. I very much like to personalise individuals and get them to come up with a language.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:35]:
So that's what it means. So for them to Yeah.

Luke Gosher [00:21:37]:
They might choose a different language. They might reject mindfulness. That's fine. Yeah. The principle underneath it is what I'm interested in. I'm not interested in mindfulness being protected as a, as an approach or a, it's like giving the power to people. You, you know, you know what this is.

Simon Ursell [00:21:53]:
Well, an approach that is mindfulness strikes me as a nonsense anyway. I mean, that just means anything to anyone, does it? It's just a it's just a word. It's a construct. Everybody's got their own thought patterns. The whole point is connecting better with yourself. I wrote down connectiveness as my as my next go for mindfulness. Just making a better connection with yourself, isn't it? I I I'm quite cerebral. I tend to think things really quite well, I think, but I'm really not connected to physically to myself very well.

Simon Ursell [00:22:25]:
So I've been last sort of 3 or 4 months, I've been trying to really work on that, which is which is definitely having an impact on me Yeah. In a really great way. That's all come from mindfulness Yeah. Which now I don't wanna use as a word. So, because it does feel like a slightly odd one.

Luke Gosher [00:22:43]:
I mean, I don't wanna in the mindfulness industry, the next iteration of mindfulness is heartfulness.

Simon Ursell [00:22:49]:
Yeah. No. That's

Luke Gosher [00:22:50]:
not cool. That like,

Simon Ursell [00:22:52]:
who's the I think that's just playing towards I mean, I I mean, I I think, you know, the the word vocabulary is huge, isn't it? And I think one of the issues around mindfulness that I certainly notice, especially amongst, men Yeah. Especially sportsmen, is it's seen as something that's a little weak. It's pink and fluffy. Yeah. It's not for them. They're fearful of it, I think. Yeah. They don't really wanna connect with that side of themselves because it's a very macho world that they're in.

Simon Ursell [00:23:20]:
Yeah. If we could change the vocabulary. One of the things I absolutely love about your approach, especially with BAM, Boxing and Mindfulness, is it speaks about physical strength, that aggression Yeah. All those things that I think, an athlete, a a leader in business, or a coach, all would wanna have some sort of, not necessarily control, but also really strong awareness of and a choice around. Say, I think it's I think the vocabulary is huge because it is so heartfulness would definitely put off a lot of, for want of a better word, macho blokes.

Luke Gosher [00:24:02]:
Yeah. It doesn't resonate with me. I like the idea of training the mind, so learning to train the mind. So when your mind wanders off in a meditation, you're bringing it back to the body, to the breath. That's like a repetition. So in, you know, when you're in the gym, you you build repetition, you do repetitions to build muscle mass, but each time your mind wanders off in a meditation, you bring it back to the body. That's a mental repetition and you get more and more used to doing that. Then when you're in a in a situation in life where you get pissed off, you get stressed, you you almost becomes habitual that you can come back and face it more head on as opposed to get caught up in the in the mental interpretation of

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:38]:
things. Have you been with any teams where they've adopted this, like, wholeheartedly as a whole group of athletes, players?

Luke Gosher [00:24:45]:
Yeah. Harlequin's, I was there for a year and a half and I did what was really good about working with them is we put no pressure on the players. I just started coming into the club, chatting with them. How are you doing? Like, not saying let's do this mindfulness thing. Started doing a little bit of one to one work. A few players were like, yeah, this is this is cool. Then I then I was seeing 5 or 6 players and 7 or 8 players each week, and then we started doing group sessions. There was a lot of giggling at the start and, like, what the hell is this? But after a few months, they

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:13]:
Joe Marler, I imagine.

Luke Gosher [00:25:14]:
No. I'm not naming any names.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:15]:
Not a giggler.

Luke Gosher [00:25:16]:
Not not naming any names. But after after a while, they became they accept they sort of accepted me because I also know I can also be in be in the rugby world. I know what it's about. But what became clear to me is they were feeling less stressed and had more space, less anxious. They could talk a bit more about what was going on. People were hanging around after the sessions and wanting to talk to me. And they were just like, yeah, there's there's something in this. So that was the longest period I've been in a sports context.

Luke Gosher [00:25:42]:
And it was, you know, it was it was really a cool experience for me because it allowed me to go back into the rugby world, but fly a different flag. And, yeah, that was, that was cool.

Simon Ursell [00:25:54]:
Oh, it's so impressive. It it is a world that I think a lot of people would massively benefit from. I think as well, once you start working with somebody like me, or like you, and really get into it, you do notice other people and think who are reacting to things instantly. Something happens. They immediately respond. Yeah. They don't have the tools. Any they haven't done any work.

Simon Ursell [00:26:21]:
It is a gym, isn't it?

Luke Gosher [00:26:22]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:26:22]:
It's a mental gym, isn't it?

Luke Gosher [00:26:23]:
You build you build

Simon Ursell [00:26:24]:
the muscle of the mind, really. Yeah. Mind muscles is it it you can see it in other people. And I'm, you know, and the one of the challenges is I wanna go up to them and say, have you thought about mindfulness? They're not gonna respond to that

Luke Gosher [00:26:37]:
at all.

Simon Ursell [00:26:37]:
You've got to, like, get a Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:38]:
That's probably not a great idea.

Simon Ursell [00:26:39]:
It's not. It's not. It wouldn't work. No. So you you you kind of But you can see it happening and you're thinking, oh, they would benefit so much.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:49]:
All you

Luke Gosher [00:26:50]:
can do is live it yourself as best you can and let that create intrigue for others. Yeah. Because everyone's gotta adopt it in their own way. Like, if I think about the Tyler Grange leaders, everyone's got their own way into this. None of them are the same. Yeah. Which is why finding everyone's own little groove into this is, I think, one of the things we really value in MPP. We're not giving a prescriptive, come and do 40 minutes of meditation a day, come and learn these principles.

Luke Gosher [00:27:15]:
It's meeting people where they're at, meeting leaders, athletes, young people where they're at and and saying you can do this, like, we're not the experts.

Simon Ursell [00:27:23]:
So you can't you can't give Rusty a process by which you are being mindful. I mean, how Rusty would be mindful is going to be very different to how I'd be mindful, how you're mindful. Yeah. It's a it's a it's a it is so and and I think, Rusty and I, that's I mean, we would both be quite biased towards individualisation of anything, really.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:45]:
Well, we're all different, so it would be a reasonable start point, wouldn't it?

Simon Ursell [00:27:48]:
Yeah. And there are so many things that are given to you as a solution. You know, do this and it will make you happier.'

Luke Gosher [00:27:57]:
That's just Well, one of the, I think linked to this, we are with the boxing meditation approach, we've, we developed a training programme, so we've got like a 3 day training that we take youth workers through and boxing coaches, and we give them the skills to pass on boxing and mindfulness. And we piloted this with mind recently. We did it with with Iremind, which is a project for young black men. And we did it for Rainbow Mind, which is a project for LGBTQ plus young people. And we passed on Bam in a really clear unified way, but the youth workers in the different projects had different language, different ways of resonating with the people we work with, and it's like what I'm really excited about is like allowing difference into this approach whilst keeping a really clear structure of how how it's taught. I don't know if that makes sense. I'm exploring it at the moment. There's just something really powerful about having something

Simon Ursell [00:28:50]:
that's unified. That makes huge sense.

Luke Gosher [00:28:52]:
And it's bringing so much diversity together.

Simon Ursell [00:28:56]:
Yeah. You I mean, you've got a framework around which you are confident that's gonna be for people. Yeah. You teach that, and then within that framework, they make it their own, don't they?

Luke Gosher [00:29:05]:
Yeah. And what was also like, we we had 10 youth workers from Iremind, 10 from Rainbow Mind, very different cultures. And we we came together and did this 3 day training, and there was connect there was there was also recognition of we're we're all the kind of same on some level, some common humanity that comes through respecting difference. So you respect and allow people to be as they are, and then we start to realise actually there's something really common between us as well. And that's, I find that really powerful.

Simon Ursell [00:29:34]:
What I would use the example of you and Mia, being so different but having exactly the same goal. Yeah. With, you know, because Mia's she was a tennis pro. Yeah. Played for Finland at tennis. And she is just the most lovely person. Unbelievable. It's making me feel emotional.

Simon Ursell [00:29:52]:
She's so lovely. And I've spent quite a lot of time with her practising mindfulness. But but she's very different to you. Yeah. Yeah. But you both are have a common purpose in terms of helping people become really great at whatever it is they're trying to achieve through helping them with their mind.

Luke Gosher [00:30:10]:
Yeah. And and the recognition that we've got to take people in where they're at and not prescribe some kind of mindfulness thing on Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:30:18]:
You know, you don't download an app and practice mindfulness and off you go. It just doesn't work. Does it? I mean, that's not gonna I mean, it I mean, it hope it might give you a doorway into a to then working on it, I guess. But It

Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:29]:
might give you some clues. I've been thinking about it, like, as you were speaking there, like, ultimately, like, it's it's like, I think coaching's helping people help themselves. Yeah.

Luke Gosher [00:30:38]:
So you

Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:38]:
are helping people help themselves. Like, think about their mind, what's helpful, what's unhelpful, what triggers me, what might how might I be able to respond differently? And then as Simon was saying, get actually who and similarly, like, the people in my team, like, do we understand each other from that point of view as well? That's probably quite helpful in in teams as

Simon Ursell [00:30:58]:
well. Yeah.

Luke Gosher [00:30:58]:
Yeah. Yeah. 100%.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:00]:
It got me thinking a lot. I think I've had way more flow states as a coach than a player.

Luke Gosher [00:31:04]:
As a coach?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:05]:
Miles more. Like, 1,000 times more. How is states.

Luke Gosher [00:31:09]:
Why? Why? What what Well,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:10]:
I've just been trying to think about, like, when like, what's helps me be quite mindful. I think, like, every night, like, I'll plan the next day, like, our mental simulations around the next day. Won't necessarily know exactly what's gonna happen, but, and then I started writing, when am I most mindful? On a Friday in Bosco, watching first dates, doing exercise, and scrolling through Instagram. Some because I'm quite

Luke Gosher [00:31:36]:
busy and

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:37]:
my mind's often busy and thinking. Those are the moments where I go, like, okay. I'm just gonna, like, hold down the reset button for a period of time. Yeah. And,

Luke Gosher [00:31:47]:
And, you know, all if you'd said that in a traditional mindfulness context, it would persuade you to not do some of those things or, like, look at that critically, and I just wanna say, yeah. Like, that's part of your mindfulness.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:58]:
I found lots of it by chance, I guess, is part of it as well. And the other thing it made me think about that I think I'm I'm really, really good at is doing deep work. Mhmm. So understanding it might be something you do with the leaders as well as understanding, like, how can I have periods of time where I can be, you know, I can be really, really productive? Because I guess that's, you know, we started looking at, like, lots of the common things that are going on in the world now that are, I guess, challenges for businesses are things like imposter syndrome, are things like productivity

Luke Gosher [00:32:28]:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:28]:
Are things like, working together as a team, are remote working and actually the impact of that upon people's minds. Like, the the more we can have people who are able to, like, just take care of their own minds Might be helpful, I don't know.

Luke Gosher [00:32:43]:
No. No. Well, it certainly is. And I think the online culture is quite interesting. So we've, we developed an away day, and as part of it, we get we get people to tell their life stories to each other from certain perspectives. And one of the reasons why we do that is because we we forget the humanity of people when we're behind screens all the time. And, we did it with an organisation a couple of weeks ago. And one of the one of the end conclusions was when you're next on on the team's meeting and you're you're going for a functional meeting with someone, remember the other dimensions of their humanity, what they've been through in their life.

Luke Gosher [00:33:16]:
Stop. Remember there's a human connection here that can sometimes get lost. So I think that I'm really interested in that area at the moment. How do we how do we inject human connection into very fast paced, very online culture, and, and also see the link between that and performance and how teams can with withhold stress with each other.

Simon Ursell [00:33:37]:
I mean, that got me thinking, like, while you 2 guys are speaking, because that's pretty cool because if you if every coach, every business leader got a much better understanding of mindfulness, or or any if any coach, any business leader got a much better

Luke Gosher [00:33:52]:
understanding of themselves.

Simon Ursell [00:33:54]:
Oh, okay. That's a better Yeah. Okay.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:56]:
Because

Luke Gosher [00:33:56]:
mindfulness is one way into that. But I think that

Simon Ursell [00:33:59]:
Yeah. Understanding themselves and the the the Their relationship to other people. Yeah. And that would their performance would skyrocket. You know, governments want better productivity. This would create better productivity. I mean, in Tyler Grange it's no coincidence, we started a 4 day week, it's been gigantically successful, we're now 30% more productive than we used to be. I don't think it's any coincidence that whilst doing a 4 day week, we also work with Suzanne Brown, our psychologist, and Eleanor, who works with Suzanne, who's also a psychologist, but also working with Luke and Meer on on things like mindfulness, have led to significant measurable actual benefits in terms of our productivity.

Simon Ursell [00:34:44]:
It's also, more importantly for me, led to a much, much more cohesive team of people, are trying at Tyler Grange, who are working together much, much more effectively. Because we've got a better understanding of ourselves as leaders, so we know when we're gonna be bad as a leader. We are aware when we're actually doing really well, and we can see that in others as well. So if somebody's having a bad day and they're not in the right frame of mind, we're we're much better now and much more better equipped to be able to say, do you want to have a bit of a pause? Because, you know, right now you don't seem to be or or you would probably step out yourself because I'll be thinking I'm not really on my game here and I'll go and do something else for a bit and then come back.

Luke Gosher [00:35:28]:
There's 2 things that come out as you're talking. One one is, I think the productivity thing is interesting with mindfulness because you're being asked to stop and be still and not do anything in inverted commas. The amount of times I do one to one work with people, they're like, I've got so much to do. I can't be And they come out of a session having realized half the things they need to do, they need to probably delegate or they don't need to do, and they and they start they're able to refocus on the things they actually need do, it's like a big relief moment.

Simon Ursell [00:35:57]:
Okay. So the microphones went out. So sorry about that. So we should be back. It seems to be working now. And we were just we were really getting into a nice little chat about, mindfulness at Tyler Grange, and I was basting about Tyler Grange's productivity. But I I think it's less about Tyler Grange's productivity and the 4 day week and more about the fact that we've done a 4 day week. We've got a psychologist in, and we've been working with mindfulness.

Simon Ursell [00:36:20]:
And I don't think there's any coincidence that we've been able to do a 4 day week and increase productivity because we've been really working on our ability to perform. And I think when you look at the amount of unproductive time, I think the average is 20% productive time in a working day. I think that's and I think that's good. I think if you're spending some of the other 80% of your time being mindful, that 20% is gonna go up. That's my theory.

Luke Gosher [00:36:48]:
Yeah. Well, what what I I always see this, in one to one work, someone coming in, finding it hard to be still, loads on their mind, coming out of a session, totally refocused, more connected to themselves and knows knows what they actually need to crack on with. I have a delegate that just really knows what they're what they're in control of and what they can do. And that just, that has a massive You know, you start then trust So that's my take on that. And that's what I see a lot with with the one to one work.

Simon Ursell [00:37:28]:
Yeah. That's very cool. And and in the sport context, I guess, you've got people that aren't performing on a match. So you got a great player. They're not gonna be a great player every match. Some matches, they're gonna play well. Some, they're not gonna play so well. I think mindfulness, the ability to understand where you're at mentally, before, during, after, and Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:37:51]:
Around a game is gonna allow you to identify that. And maybe if a coach really well versed in that, they might think, actually, my star player is not gonna perform as well as they might. I might I might, put somebody else in today.

Luke Gosher [00:38:04]:
Yeah. Well, the the key time in working with sports teams is when they when they fail or they're they're not performing well and and giving people the tools to accept that. Yeah. Re reframe that, reset that in their mind, not follow those really hyper judgmental thoughts.

Simon Ursell [00:38:21]:
Can they do it in a game?

Luke Gosher [00:38:23]:
It's possible. It's possible.

Simon Ursell [00:38:25]:
I'm having I'm not having a great game. I wonder why. Oh, I just realized what I'm doing. I don't

Luke Gosher [00:38:30]:
think it's it's best not to get into analytical mindset when

Simon Ursell [00:38:33]:
you're playing. Okay.

Luke Gosher [00:38:34]:
But definitely if you've, you had a dip in performance, you've not played well, you can spend a whole it's very classic for an athlete to spend a whole weekend analyzing that, judging themselves, punishing themselves. So much energy wasted in that. When you can learn, you can learn to work with that. If you've got more awareness of that, you can learn to, work with that mentally. And then it affects your nervous system, it's a stress in the body. So it's it's, it's a real hindrance to performance when you get stuck in that loop.

Simon Ursell [00:39:01]:
Or you're gonna get the same in the business world

Luke Gosher [00:39:02]:
as well? Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:39:03]:
Exactly. Because you're, you know, you're having a bad month Yeah. Or you're having a bad day. Yeah. Don't get stuck. Don't don't worry. You know, don't sweat the small stuff so much. I've I'm a 100% better than that now.

Simon Ursell [00:39:13]:
Still not there. Microphone stressed me out a little bit if I'm completely honest.

Luke Gosher [00:39:17]:
Mhmm.

Simon Ursell [00:39:17]:
But I'm definitely getting a lot more capable of coping with those kinds of things, which is nice.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:24]:
2 things it's made me think about from sport. 1 is, I guess well, rugby is an example of a lot of play sports. So, I I'm aware of the lots of the best players I would know are good at that ability to go, actually, I do need to, like, get back in the moment, so gazing and other things. And then the second thing I thought a bit about was that kind of that thinking slow to think faster. As you said, like, just trusting yourself to stay still for a period of time, I think sometimes in business, we have to be busy. If I get another person that tells me they're busy, I'm gonna make them do 5 press ups.

Simon Ursell [00:39:58]:
Mhmm.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:59]:
But actually that ability just to step back, sometimes people feel really guilty about that.

Luke Gosher [00:40:04]:
Oh, yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:04]:
The reality of sport is, like, sport has advantages, isn't it? You can't train all the time. So you have periods in between where you periods in between where you might be recovering or working on your mind, Jim, whereas actually business just doesn't like Yeah. You would go out, map out your week.

Luke Gosher [00:40:21]:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:21]:
Like show me, like, when are you when's your recovery bits? When are you doing your deepest work? Yeah. When you're working on your mindset?

Luke Gosher [00:40:28]:
It can take a when working with some business leaders, and it's very common, it can take quite a few months for the guilt to soften, for them to allow themselves to sit still for even 10 minutes. And I remember when I started working at the Buddhist Centre, I came out for a really strong I was managing, a really complex project and I suddenly started working in a Buddhist environment where it was like, you know, very relaxed in comparison. The first six months I was so anxious. I couldn't, I couldn't allow myself to, to have that space. So I went through like an initiation of like, working in a Buddhist context for 6, 6 years and, and learned to live in a very different way, but it took a year at least for the guilt and the anxiety and be like, to soften and for me to allow myself to have space. So yeah, there's a lot, a lot of barriers there. So that's half the battle really. If you can learn to allow yourself to have this space, you you develop more of an inner confidence, because if you don't create the space, you've got so much external influence coming in at you, and you don't know where your own compass is.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:29]:
Takes me, 5 days to be on holiday.

Luke Gosher [00:41:32]:
Well, exactly. We've had this conversation, Simon. In the 1st week, you're decompressing, The 2nd week, you you you will at the end of it.

Simon Ursell [00:41:38]:
Like We get yeah.

Luke Gosher [00:41:39]:
It's like

Simon Ursell [00:41:39]:
I I would. I mean, I don't now, but Yeah. Certainly before, I would the 1st week would be holiday. I'll be having a great time because I'd be busy. 2nd week, I would finally unwind, and then I'd get ill. I'd be I like like physically ill, which was weird, wasn't it? But it actually kinda makes sense to me now. And it's and we have a similar thing with the 4 day week. So when a new person comes in, especially someone who's in a relatively senior position, they come into the business.

Simon Ursell [00:42:05]:
They find it incredibly hard Yeah. Not to work on a Friday. They're really guilty. We reckon it takes about 6 months for people to get the hang of of the effectiveness of the 4 day week. And I think the effectiveness of our 4 day week is all about that pause, longer pause we have at the weekend where you're not and you're able to, for over 3 days, pause much more effectively than you are over 2. So we see the benefits of that in productivity at Tyler Grange. Yeah. But it takes people a heck of a long time to get over the guilt because they're I mean, you're you go to school age 4 and do a 5 day week.

Luke Gosher [00:42:39]:
Yeah. And

Simon Ursell [00:42:40]:
then you're doing a 5 day week for the rest of your life. To then say, actually, no, we're gonna do a 4 day week is really uncomfortable for people. It sounds great, but actually it's very I found it very stressful to start with.

Luke Gosher [00:42:51]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:42:51]:
Yeah. I still do occasionally find it quite I mean, it's Friday today, isn't it? And we we walk past the office today.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:56]:
Yeah. Why the hell aren't you working?

Simon Ursell [00:42:58]:
I am I'm not working. I'm having a really cool time with you guys. This isn't work. This is lovely. But it's, it's just really nice to to have that just have a nice, relaxed time. Yeah. I mean, I get I have a lot of mindfulness on a golf course.

Luke Gosher [00:43:12]:
Yeah. Well, exactly. That's a that's a that's mindfulness. I we gotta change this word. We have. That's my commitment from this podcast, changing the word. Well, Rusty

Simon Ursell [00:43:22]:
and I will support you. We got it. What do you reckon? What do we reckon? Come on then. Let's come up with a different word. Let's brainstorm briefly.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:29]:
Space between. But I I was as you were talking again then, I was, yeah, I was just thinking about that kind of actually, to this, I I got a question for you, but then an observation. Was that a story I heard that I thought was pretty cool, which is about Buddhist monks, and this was like, this stressed me out hearing this story, practicing by standing in the longest queues in the airports. Mhmm. So I would always try and find the shortest queue, and I would be really stressed if my my queue wasn't going down as quickly as everyone else's. And so I just love the idea of actually, like, stress testing some of this stuff.

Luke Gosher [00:44:00]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:01]:
And then which then led me into so when you work with organizations or individuals, do people ever they must do in business. They must go, cool. How are we gonna measure this? So how are we gonna, like, know that this has worked? Now Simon's given us some objective figures around, you know, the the impact on on productivity. But but, you know, you go into a sports team and well, it might not translate to winning next week, might it? So

Luke Gosher [00:44:25]:
The thing is, I I I hear you and I I dodged this. With harlequins, what became really clear that human relationships developed. I was liked as a person, I was helping them connect in a particular way, and there was, I don't know, there was a, there was a kind of belief in what I did. I hate having to measure it, but I know it's really important, but it's quite

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:46]:
Me too. But I

Simon Ursell [00:44:47]:
just, again,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:48]:
that's what business does.

Luke Gosher [00:44:49]:
It's what does. Yeah. And, again, like, I'm I'm working with Monster Energy Joint Leadership Team at the moment. They're not interested in measuring. They're like, they're, they're kind of, say, and they also started working with Bupa a couple of weeks ago. They're not like, again, there's no, no metrics, Talley Grange. There's no, there's no metrics. I'm tempted to say no.

Luke Gosher [00:45:09]:
I don't wanna go down that route. I I absolutely hear you because how do I I don't know. I've got, like, 2 global brands and and Tyler Grange and another another organization's come recently, and they're they're believing in something about the humanity of what this is about. So it does depend on the leaders' buy in. If if there's some leaders that buy in and get this

Simon Ursell [00:45:29]:
But can't you just Clare Murphy it? Can't we just tell stories about it? I mean, I No.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:33]:
No. I'm just saying

Luke Gosher [00:45:33]:
Well, I'm

Simon Ursell [00:45:34]:
saying here's a measure.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:35]:
Tell stories. But Just tell

Simon Ursell [00:45:36]:
us stories.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:36]:
I know how businesses and sport work. Yeah. Yeah. Show me the return on investment. So, again, I was speaking to a technical director at a Premier League club yesterday, and they're having to put forward a business case to get a free kick coach. Okay. Well, 30% of goals come from free kicks. And if we get 5 more points in the league, that's an extra £15,000,000.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:53]:
So we can afford to spend Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:45:55]:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:55]:
X amount of pounds on a free kick coach. That's how the world works?

Luke Gosher [00:45:58]:
Oh, no. I know. I know, and I'm not I'm I I know and I don't have an answer to that question, basically, but I also know how important it is as a question, something that we need to think about, as we scale, basically, because at, and at the same time I do wanna protect working with organisations and people that know in their own heart and soul that this, this is really valuable.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:19]:
I think there's

Simon Ursell [00:46:20]:
a bit of a sea change there, especially around businesses. There are lots of businesses now that are, that feel that money productivity is really important. Yeah. We've got to we have to turn a profit. But actually we're more interested in making a difference, having a purpose. And and there is a there is a much stronger understanding in the business world of the power of that, for sustainability and longevity of of of productivity, growth, profit, whatever. But you can't measure it in the moment. But the long term benefits, I think this is why I'm saying tell stories because, you know, you can tell a story about Tyler Grange, you can tell a story about monster energy and about Bupa and about Bam and all these other cool things you're doing with mindfulness.

Simon Ursell [00:47:03]:
You can tell stories about it, can't you? And then those stories are will touch people and they are, you can demonstrate long term benefits to an organisation that may not be just the bottom line. But in terms of longevity, happiness, all those kind of things, I think, I think most business leaders are interested in that.

Luke Gosher [00:47:21]:
It's interesting because I had a meeting yesterday, to evaluate our first boxing and mindfulness training program where we took 20 20 youth workers from mine through it. And we did loads of qualitative and quantitative data, analyzed it all, got into this meeting expecting to really go through it and nitpick it, and and the evaluation team said, we don't really wanna look at the data, we wanna hear what people are saying, what, what's the spirit of this, what's the feedback, give us some case studies, talk to us about it. And I was shocked because the amount of data we have to gather for our, for the evidence base is so important because it's gonna help us scale. But this was the first time in a meeting where they were like, no, we wanna go qual qualitative on this, we wanna hear the themes, the stories, and that, that spoke to me. So I'm naturally inclined to agree with you, and I'm also like, what you're saying is really important, because if we're gonna affect more people, getting that clarity around the impact and how we measure that is is it's it's gotta be it's

Simon Ursell [00:48:22]:
gotta be We've

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:22]:
got a bounce back ability rating of 97%.

Simon Ursell [00:48:27]:
Yes. Using our bounce back ability gauge

Luke Gosher [00:48:29]:
Yeah. Your business Thank you

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:31]:
very much.

Simon Ursell [00:48:31]:
Is is as bouncy as this. Yeah. I mean, it's all a bit. I mean, I think if you need that, you're probably not ready for mindfulness, whether we're gonna call it that or something else. I don't I don't think as an organization, you're you're possibly that ready to to reap the rewards a bit. Because if you're just gonna face it, right, what are we gonna get out of this? When and when are we gonna turn more profit? When are you gonna become more productive? That your your mindfulness practice won't work very well because you're not being very mindful. Yeah. Well It's counterintuitive, isn't it? Yeah.

Luke Gosher [00:48:59]:
I mean Get over it. I also I also think, to embed it properly, someone in the organization has to have been for a journey themselves, I think, around some, like the journey you've been on, Simon. Yeah. You understand something about the importance of looking after your mental health when you go through change and transition, and that can lean people more towards exploring these things, that help help you become more resilient in your mind, help you, you know, help you when you when you go through difficulty. One of the things with mindfulness is that you, if you plant the seeds and get the, get the stuff set up to help you be more clear at becoming an athlete, dealing with pressure better, if you then get an injury or you go into retirement or whatever happens, you've got this skill set and this this kind of tool which will really activate later on as well. So it's it is about planting seeds for for those identity crisis, those big transitions that can happen like that in the sports world. And I think there's a responsibility, to equip people for that change, as fully as possible. The yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:50:01]:
I mean, I think we're gonna have to wrap it up there, otherwise my microphones are gonna explode. Probably there's probably be, I don't know, some sort of detonation in the microphone world. But, absolutely fascinating stuff. I mean, if you wanna get into mindfulness, I can't recommend Luke and his team enough. But there are loads of organizations out there as well because I think this is, this is something that sport and business are starting to do. But those that aren't doing it are probably gonna get left a little bit behind, if you wanna put some pressure on people to be mindful. So that's not gonna work, is it? No? No. I'll give you that.

Simon Ursell [00:50:41]:
But it but it is quite a it is it is a fascinating subject. Some points, Rusty?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:49]:
I'm thinking about lots of things at the moment. Yeah. Just your your own relationship with your mind and your body. Like, it's cool that you're, like, developing awareness of that for people. I think what you just said then, like, if someone hyphen the organization's been through that experience, I think it's it's always more helpful. A tab by Matt and a bath would be like buying into this full sorry. Would be buying into this fully. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:14]:
As you said, Simon, like, more and more you think about the young people that are joining the labor market these days and what they want, they're actually not salary isn't number 1 anymore. Like No. Their own mental health, that sense of belonging, sense of purpose. Like, I do think we're gonna it is a it's, as you said, not just a productivity tool from a, you know, tomorrow point of view, but actually retention of staff. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:51:39]:
You know Longevity, isn't it? It's it's it's a resilient talk. It's a bounce bouncy organization is gonna benefit from having mindfulness of some sort within it, because you're gonna last longer. You're gonna be around for longer. You're gonna cope with recessions, with changes in technology. You're gonna deal with that way better if you're a more mindful organization.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:00]:
And if anyone listening has a better word than mindfulness, because we are definitely struggling here, by the way.

Luke Gosher [00:52:05]:
We need we need to rebrand

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:07]:
this. This podcast

Luke Gosher [00:52:08]:
is start of a rebrand of that word.

Simon Ursell [00:52:11]:
Yeah. Okay. That's backability then. The the, say thank you so much for coming on leak. Really appreciate it. And, yeah, keep listening.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:21]:
We did it. We did it with the microphones. We did it. Brilliant. Well, that was pretty cool, that we managed to get through that, and the microphones only broke 7 times.

Simon Ursell [00:52:33]:
Oh, that's yeah. I've gotta get another way of recording these parts. Yeah. I feel quite certain about it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:39]:
Yeah. We'll do a studio. We'll do a studio. We'll go to BBC studios next time. Okay. Mate, that was cool. Couple of things. 2 two favorite bits for me.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:47]:
Just the individualizing it bit. Like, everyone's different, can we can we just help them, have a better relationship with their mind and body and more self awareness, what triggers them, how can they be at their best, all the types of things that I guess, we probably might call coaching. Sounds like he's doing a great job with that.

Simon Ursell [00:53:07]:
Yeah. I mean, he's he's a terrific guy. I mean, I think, that the thing I mean, it something that makes me really quite emotional about Luke and what he does is the impact he's having on some kids who are having a really difficult time. And I think if you want some if people want evidence, and I don't think you should be looking for that, but if people want evidence around mindfulness and and the impact it can have on everybody, you just look at what he's doing there because it is it is sensational and the work he's doing, the he's such a mindful cool guy. He's he's working with athletes. He's working with business and doing some unbelievable stuff and doing incredibly well. All the money he makes from that, he is then using to help help these kids and that is, you know, that just blows my mind. He's such a great guy.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:53]:
Nice. Not sure I can follow that one. I think that the the other thing that really resonated with me was just that trusting yourself to stand still for a period of time. I know sport does it naturally, but business is busy, isn't it? Numbers Yeah. Metrics and the hamster wheel and, you know, deadlines and KPIs and all those types of things, strategies, and and, just that ability to actually maybe take a little step back from the river and go a little few steps back on the riverbank and look and go, okay. Like, is there some stuff I could do here differently? Can I think about this differently? Actually, like, how am I reacting in these moments? What could I so, yeah, I just love that kind of, you know, that he's helping people be better at doing that.

Simon Ursell [00:54:38]:
Yeah. Sure. I mean, that and, you know, the whole productivity thing for me is is incredible because it's it's counterintuitive for most people, I think. But when you actually look at what's going on, people aren't very productive at work at all. And all layering on more of the same stuff. Oh, come on. Let's work harder. Let's work longer.

Simon Ursell [00:54:59]:
Let's do more time. Let's let's let's do more and more and more and then we will be more productive. That's clear. When you think about that it's clear nonsense and actually building in space, time, calmness, the ability to to create those mental muscles so that you can be better in the moment is gonna make you better. I mean if you wanna be more productive that's gonna make you more productive. So it's counterintuitive, but I think one of the one of the issues is that business leaders, coaches, they're not thinking that deeply. They're just repeat they're just on repeat of everything else they're doing. And they just think, well, let's just do more because this this is what I've always done.

Simon Ursell [00:55:38]:
If I do more of it, we'll be better. Well, that's not gonna happen, you know. So pause. Relax. Have a bit of a think about what you're doing. Go and do something very different, and then come back because you can't be amazing a 100% of the time. So, yeah, I'll be I love this pod. This is a good one.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:57]:
Nice. Well, yeah, the more harder thing is something that sometimes happens in sport. And hopefully next time we get into the one of your entourage or maybe your your personal trainer or your your nutritionist or

Luke Gosher [00:56:09]:
Nutritionist. I

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:10]:
think your wife's your nutritionist,

Simon Ursell [00:56:12]:
My wife's my nutritionist. And and yeah. And she's my best coach too. So yeah. But, but we're not getting my wife on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:20]:
Awesome. Over and out.

Simon Ursell [00:56:21]:
See you.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:22]:
Thanks so much for joining us on the Advanced Speculative Podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can I reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:56:32]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursel, u r, s for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:39]:
TikTok? No. Not really. LinkedIn, Russ Blanchaw. And then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts.

Simon Ursell [00:56:46]:
Yeah. Second that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:48]:
Over and out.