Becoming Britain’s First Female NFL Coach with Phoebe Schecter | Episode 2

Phoebe Schecter is pioneering the world of American Football, having empowered women in sport by becoming the first British female coach in the NFL. Her bounceback moment was taking a complete 180 away from her comfort zone and moving to the UK. Despite her initial lack of interest in American Football, she seized an opportunity to push her limits and face imposter syndrome head-on. Join us as we discuss the nitty-gritty of being a woman in a male-dominated industry and explore Phoebe’s inspiring journey.  

In this episode:

[00:03:35] Building Confidence as a Coach: From Youth teams to NFL

[00:08:49] The Struggle of Winning in Elite Sports

[00:11:11] Overcoming Doubt and Building Confidence

[00:20:27] Don't Let Toxic Environments Hinder Your Growth

[00:24:19] Rookie coaching challenges: A Head Coach's Perspective

[00:29:37] Embrace Your Flaws and Believe in Yourself

[00:35:47] The Importance of Independence and Strength

[00:39:08] Mastering Bounce Back Ability: Expert Tips

Please like, subscribe or follow so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here:
 
 https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

You can connect with Phoebe here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/phoebe-schecter-195626142/

https://www.instagram.com/phoebe_schecter

https://twitter.com/Phoebe_Schecter

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:

Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast, the podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks and challenges. Hope you enjoy the pod, looking forward to it. Listen on. Hey Rusty, so we got the Phoebe Shetler podcast coming up. How come we got Phoebe on?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:16]:

Well, I think we both agreed that we're living our lives through Phoebe social media at the moment.

Simon Ursell [00:00:20]:

Yeah, certainly.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:22]:

Yeah, probably that. Really so she's had so many experiences, one of which is obviously she's currently at the NFL draft and hanging around there. First time I met her I was just noticed her energy and her impact on other people. I don't think that's I guess it'll be something we'll delve into as to how easy she finds out or what skills she's learned, but yeah, I just think she's like super impressive and also she's like pioneering, isn't she? So to be a female coach in the NFL, doing the stuff she's doing, most of her social media pictures is Phoebe with lots of fellas, if I'm honest.

Simon Ursell [00:00:58]:

Yeah, really, really big fellas.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:01]:

And I guess she's done a bit of stuff with Tallah Grange before. So what are your thoughts around while we've got her on?

Simon Ursell [00:01:07]:

She's just impressive, I mean, she's done so much. There can't be many people who've done what Phoebe's done. NFL coach, ninja warrior, kabadi. Yeah. And just across all sorts of sports, horse riding and challenging stuff as well, things that can't have been easy. So, yeah, very excited to hear what she thinks about how you can bounce back.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:35]:

Looking forward to it. Phoebe Sheffner, one of three female NFL coaches, enjoys horses, enjoys food and Miley Cyrus.

Phoebe Schecter [00:01:47]:

You've been.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:50]:

Awesome getting to know you over the years and learn about your journey. So I guess we're going to delve into it a little bit more now.

Simon Ursell [00:01:57]:

Yeah, great to meet you, Phoebe. So I think what we'd really like to know is how did you first get into American football and how did you end up in the NFL?

Phoebe Schecter [00:02:10]:

Well, my journey is definitely not a normal one by any means, by my accent. I have an American accent, but I moved over to the UK ten years ago and I moved here originally to work for a gentleman on the Dutch Olympic team with three day eventing horses, basically, hence Rusty's little plug earlier. And really I was just looking for a way to get to meet people, get a bit of American culture. And literally not even two months after moving over, I saw an ad for American football and I thought this has to be fate. Like this is a sign that I should be trying out for something like this. Despite never playing contact sport and really not liking American football, but went to trials, somehow made the team. I think it was more my accent than anything and after that it was really I mean, for me that moment was, I think when you're out of your comfort zone, you're so much more willing to take risks anyways. And I just decided at that point, this is what I want to do, this is my career path. So I completely 180 it and started becoming a personal trainer and creating a schedule for myself that I could help my teammates and develop them and their strength and focus on American football, whatever that would look like.

Simon Ursell [00:03:28]:

So how was that first day when you first went? So it must have been a little nerve wracking.

Phoebe Schecter [00:03:35]:

Yeah, absolutely. Especially when I first got into coaching. Right. I think a lot of people get into coaching through the youth in terms of you are able to feel a bit more confident because you think all their kids, they may not be as harsh to you. So I think my first time coaching went from youth, then I went to our adult game and then I became a player coach for our adult game, because in American football in the UK, you can play men and women on a senior team. So started playing with the men. And I think all these little experiences build your confidence because you think, all right, my teammates believe in me, they trust me to, as a coach, as a player, be there and support them. And then when it came to I mean, I remember my first ever coaching internship at a university. I flew myself out there, stayed on one of the coaches couches for two weeks just to kind of be around the environment. And it's intimidating because you're in that room. And it's the same in the NFL with 110 plus people, players, athletes, who have grown up with this sport from four years old. And it's been their dream to either play in college or play in the NFL. And I think you're acutely aware of the journeys of all these people and how much it means to them.

Simon Ursell [00:04:53]:

Wow, that feels to me like it must have been quite intimidating. So what was going through your head when you're are you just sort of plunging in and thinking, right, I'm just going to dirt, or did you do much prep?

Phoebe Schecter [00:05:09]:

Yeah, so preparation is always key, I think, in whatever. And I was always taught by one of my coaches, the seven P's, so prior proper preparation prevents piss poor performance and kind of living by that is something that's really key. So, like going to the NFL, I think I'm fortunate that you're able to research a lot of the people that are with a team and an organization. So one of the things I thought is I wasn't really an NFL fan, so to speak. So I made sure that all the coaches because in American football, we have at least 16 coaches on a staff because you've got positional coaches for everything and then assistance to them. So I printed out all the photos of the coaches with their names. So I can make sure at least that was one piece that I'd recognize, somebody be able to greet them. And one less thing to think about when I was into training camp, because training camp itself is quite intense and full on and I tried my best to kind of absorb as much X's and O's or scheme from coaches around. But I'd say that was much tougher because there aren't many people that know the operation of the NFL and knows what that looks and feels like. And I think that's something across multiple sports. If you're someone that's in grassroots or amateur kind of the younger levels, sometimes you don't even know what you're working towards because you've never been in that elite environment. You don't know what that looks like, what that feels like, and inevitably, you don't know what you're working towards because you've never even seen what that environment is like.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:42]:

Can I ask two questions?

Simon Ursell [00:06:44]:

Of course you can.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:45]:

Right. Thank you. It's very kind. One is, has your relationship with being out of your comfort zone changed? Has it? And the second question is, as well as planning. So planning seems like me to be a reasonable way to deal with out of my comfort zone, as you described it. So as well as planning, what other things have helped you, I guess hopefully move the dial around that relationship.

Phoebe Schecter [00:07:09]:

Yeah, I'll go with the comfort zone one first. I really think that moving to the UK is actually the first thing that kind of triggered this desire for challenges and almost discomfort. Granted, when I moved here, when I applied for my job, I was kind of just doing it to please my grand, if I'm being completely honest. She wanted me to interview with this guy. I thought it'd be nice, take advantage of my dual citizenship. And when my employer was like, yeah, you're hired. I'll see you in December, I thought, oh my gosh, this is an external force that's saying this is going to be a change in your life. And once I went through that growth period, that discomfort. I actually almost looked for that after that. And I thought, what are the next challenges? So hence playing American football. Hence playing Kabudi, hence doing American or doing Ninja warrior. I was constantly like, all right, well, what's next? What's next? And I think that really kind of plays into my curiosity. I love to know things. I love to know why. I love to understand. So if I can kind of keep pushing myself and this is comfort zones. And it's interesting because one of the conversations I'm having now is, all right, if I go back to an NFL team, would I go back to Buffalo? And obviously any NFL teams you'd love to be with. But I wonder if, would I be comfortable in Buffalo? And that's part of why I want to go there. Or is it that I actually should be in a totally new environment. Can I do it again what I did a couple of years ago? Can I re challenge myself in that way?

Simon Ursell [00:08:44]:

Sure. Did you ever want to give in?

Phoebe Schecter [00:08:49]:

I think you have moments where it feels so hard. It feels like and to be fair, there was times where we weren't winning. And in the NFL and elite sport, that is what success is based around is are you winning? And it's a black and white answer. And I think that felt really hard because you feel like you're putting in so much time. You're there seven days a week, you're not sleeping more than 4 hours a night and you're like, what are we doing this for? I think having really great leaders around me and being a part of a really great organization where they were utilizing this repeated messaging, they really believed in what we were working towards and it was a really clear vision. I think that kind of helps anchor you. But you absolutely go through periods of time where whether it's self doubt, impostor syndrome is a definite thing. Perhaps at the time I couldn't identify it as that. I just knew I was having all these thoughts of what am I doing here? I don't know anything. And these guys have been in this league and have known about the sport way longer than that. And I guess not understanding what I brought to an organization, all these things start to kind of build in your mind and it just makes you doubt a lot. And then again, not winning, that doesn't help. But it's really key that you again stick to kind of what you're saying in terms of your planning, your preparation, all of that, if you can keep that routine. Which is why so many athletes strive in an environment of routine and they suffer outside of it because the routine keeps them positive. It keeps them in this great mindset. It keeps them amongst others who are even though you're struggling, you're kind of all pulling through with each other. That makes sense.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:43]:

Yeah. I was concerned. I forgot to mention they start that you are now a tester for the Ninja Warrior circuits. That's probably the favorite thing that you.

Phoebe Schecter [00:10:54]:

Do, at least for kids.

Simon Ursell [00:10:55]:

Yeah, well, listener demographics definitely going to get younger. That's cool.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:59]:

Yeah, maybe. Let's try and be more specific. Is there an example you could think of? Actually, this was a real love. This was really challenging. And here's some stuff that helped me. Like what? Bounce back from that moment.

Phoebe Schecter [00:11:11]:

Yeah, I mean, there were times where I would be working with an athlete and it's interesting. So we would do scout team. So essentially I would act as the defense and I'd go against the offense. And I used to get in these almost like mental verbal kind of challenges with one of the players where I wasn't sure if it was like, did he think I shouldn't be there. And because you're already doubting yourself already is. He just challenging me to see what I can do, what I deserve, all of that. And I think we would have these battles all the time and literally to the point where it was almost like negative talk between the two of us. And it really made me doubt a lot, because I think when you've got someone at that level and you don't feel like you belong there at times either, I think that starts to spiral in your head. And so it wasn't until later in the season where it was actually Thanksgiving, we were at a Thanksgiving dinner together with all the team, and we started talking, and and he was explaining why, and I was I was curious as to, like, how we ended up in this scenario. And it was it was truly like, I'm challenging you because I believe in you. And to this day, I mean, we're probably best of friends in terms of, like, our relationship with each other, but when you're going through that, you don't understand why someone will put this pressure on you. You don't understand. He's questioning me on some of my knowledge, and I didn't know if it was to catch me out or if it was to be like, hey, you got this. And that was never that conversation. And it wasn't until we spoke about it. And it still makes me feel, like, uncomfortable now where you get all warm in your body, like, oh, I really don't like that. But it was really essential to my growth because now I can take on a challenge from a player I don't know, because he allowed me to build up my confidence through a very odd way without explaining it. So conversation was the best. I know it's very convoluted, kind of circle around, but I guess that's one example and then another example would just be a quicker example would just be we do film a lot in American football. You have to present or break down the film to the players. And this is my first training camp, and I was so nervous. And my coach at the time was like, you're going to go teach the DVS now? I had pros in there that have been in the league for seven, eight years, and I'm like, you want me to tell them what they're doing? Right or wrong? I don't have a clue. But I think when I got in there and I actually just thought, I can rewind it as much as I want, I can slow it down as much as I want, and I know what I'm seeing. And I think trusting your eyes and trusting that, hey, it doesn't matter if you're grassroots, it doesn't matter if you're elite. When you see fundamental movements, it's the same. It's just faster at the higher level. So I think going back to trusting who you are and trusting what you know, and also being humble enough to admit, oh, maybe I don't know this, or what do you see in this instance? I think all those conversations are really key, too.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:32]:

And did you have people that helped you as well? So people outside the environment? Because I guess one of the challenges is sometimes in business or sport, people kind of feel trapped in a bubble and a little bit helpless. Did you have people?

Phoebe Schecter [00:14:44]:

Yeah, I think having mentors is really key. I think having friends, I'd say for me, I'm definitely a quality over quantity person. So if I have one or two really great people I can go to for advice, who I know are not going to sugarcoat things and they're going to tell me how it is and push me and challenge me, I think that's really key. And there's also one of the coaches I worked with, we became good friends because I felt like he didn't look at sport quite the same as everybody else. I mean, sport and especially the NFL was definitely 24/7. Right. It's all encompassing, but he saw that there was life outside of the NFL, and I think that made me kind of connect with him more. And he was younger, kind of lower down in the totem pole. And so being able to learn from him, ask him questions, how does this world work? There's so much of that every day. What does this mean now? We're this part of the year? What does this mean? I didn't know any of that. So you're trying to constantly adapt in your environment, but I think so much of it is, who do you surround yourself with? Are you open to learning? And are you able to be humble yet also be confident in yourself? I think that's a really key be. And I guess it all goes back to like, all right, how do we earn trust? Because when you can do that with the players, you start to build your foundations, you start to build your family, essentially, who can support you once you.

Simon Ursell [00:16:20]:

Feel like you've got that trust, is that really when you start to feel very confident in that environment?

Phoebe Schecter [00:16:26]:

Yeah, there were a few times where there's moments right. And I think trust can be as simple as we did show highlights of me playing Kabudi because of the tackling. I'm a stopper in Kabudi, so it's like all tackling. And then playing American football myself, again, we showed highlights to the players. My first training camp, just to say, look, I may not know as much as you, but I'm going to give my all. And they appreciate that. But then it's like, all right, as simple as, okay, Simon, you ask me what time it is. I'm going to tell you it's this time. What do we have next? Oh, at this time, we have this and it's here. And even though that's only little, those little moments build up quite quickly when you're trying to earn someone's trust. And it got to a point where, again, we've got a lot of people on a team and we all sit in the same big auditorium. Sports people were quite routine. We like to sit in the same seat, we like to do the same thing. We follow all of that. And I always sat next to two of these players and we would get new guys and that we're always working out. And I remember one time, one of the new guys we're working out was sat in my seat and I came up and recognized all, but I'll just go stand in the back of the room, not a big deal. And the two players were like, no, you've been here, you've earned this. You up, out. And those little moments are what mean the most when you see someone, they've not been provoked. I've not said anything. And they've on their own been like, no, this is her seat, this is where she sits every day. And I think that means a lot. And then again, it's how others react to that and how others perceive that and they perceive you.

Simon Ursell [00:18:10]:

Sure. So I think a lot of people listening to this are going to be thinking, wow, Phoebe is pretty amazing. I know they're going to make it embarrass you now, but I think sometimes people can see somebody like you or hear somebody like you who's overcome so many great challenges and think, wow, I could never do that. What advice would you give to people who are challenged by some of these obstacles you've overcome, some of these challenges you've bounced back from?

Phoebe Schecter [00:18:38]:

I think the most important thing is I'm just an ordinary person like everybody else. I've perhaps faced some more challenges that others have not, but I think there's very conscious decisions of I'm going to take this risk, or if an opportunity arises, not being afraid to fail. I think too many people are afraid of, oh my gosh, if this doesn't happen, or if I do this, and actually what are the pauses that you could take on the other side of that, okay, let's say you do fail. What happens then? Right? That's not to say there aren't other opportunities in the future or there's so many learnings from that moment, but you also think, all right, what if nothing happens now from this opportunity? Well, who knows in 510 years from now that could pull back up again. I mean, I look at Rusty and I, we met at an NFL event five, six years ago just by chance, really briefly, and then look at what you're able to build off of that. Just because you were willing to talk to somebody you didn't know in an environment you weren't really comfortable in, and vice versa. So I think we tend to become our biggest obstacles, whether that's in your work life or home life, we tend to put ourselves in boxes and say that we can't achieve certain things, but in the right environment, with the right people around you, you could literally do anything. But you have to believe in yourself.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:20:06]:

Can I ask you a question? Because I was thinking about environment. Like obviously it explains lots of behavior and you spoke about moments there where it felt like if it didn't go so well, you would get caught by people. How important is that? Like picking the right environment? So would you be really intentional around actually would you go, I don't want to work here, I actually don't want to work with these people?

Phoebe Schecter [00:20:27]:

I think you'd push through it a little bit naturally because a lot of people don't want to give up. I've talked to some of the other female coaches in the league and they've not had great environments. And I know that I've had a really great environment. That's not to say that every moment has been perfect, but I think a lot of it comes down to opinions of others. I've come to a point in my life where in real life or social media or whatever that looks like your opinion is your opinion. I'm never going to change how you feel about me. I shouldn't worry about that either, because you also don't know me. You don't know what I've been through or what I've done or the experiences I've had. You'll never be able to have that. But I think when people are in certain environments that potentially could be toxic, I think it's also acknowledging that this is not a good space for you and it's hindering your growth and it's actually pushing you back the other way, right? It's kind of forcing you insular or you're starting to do things that you wouldn't normally do. And I think you look at any habit that humans have, or anyone has, it's repeated things over a period of time now that can be positive or negative. And if you're constantly in that negative environment, it's really hard to be strong and positive. So that's where you almost need the external piece of who are the people you have around you and are they able to pull you from that and help you grow? And if not, maybe you do need to step back, reevaluate where you are, where you want to be, what you think you deserve and your value. Because people will always undervalue you, right? I mean, inevitably people will never know your full potential. They might think you might not know your full potential, but I think you have to at least put yourself in a position to be as successful as.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:22:20]:

Possible and as well as environment. You spoke about experiences, so again, fuels my bias around multiple experiences, different information, different problems do you have to solve? If you could design one bounce back ability scenario for you or experience for you to have in the next twelve months, what would it be? What do you think would add to your repertoire?

Phoebe Schecter [00:22:44]:

Oh, man. For me, if I'm talking about a specific experience, I want to be in a brand new coaching environment with a brand new team, with a whole new style of learning and teaching. And I want to be pushed to learn how a new organization operates. I want to feel that kind of like, makes your body go warm on discomfort that you get sometimes when you think, I can't do this. For me, if I can put myself in that position over the next twelve months, this last season, I've kind of put myself in that position with doing more broadcasting, trying to tell people what I think I see. So the challenge is always there, but you're spot on with it, how can I even learn the same thing but have multiple different stimulus, multiple different people trying to tell me different message, the same message. And how you absorb that and the different key points you learn from that, I think are so interesting because how we all absorb data is so different to one another.

Simon Ursell [00:23:50]:

So fascinating stuff. I'm quite interested in talking about environment and being and it sounds like the Buffalo Bills was a cracking environment, really brilliant place to be. Have you got any examples of where you failed? Sorry, in the Buffalo Bills, but the environment really helped you feel like you managed to learn from that. And that felt discomfort. You felt a bit of discomfort, but then the environment helped you.

Phoebe Schecter [00:24:19]:

Yeah, I took on our rookies for tight end. So much of it was put on me in terms of making sure that X person comes into an organization, you pretty much have 24 hours with them to make sure that they're up to scratch, and it's just not long enough, it's not feasible. And everyone learns so differently and all of that, but when you put that person into practice, they probably get five reps, if you're lucky. And you think if they don't know those five reps and if they fail at all or do something wrong on those five reps, that's on me. Right. As a coach, you are responsible for that. I didn't do a good enough job teaching them. And then if you get the head coach coming over and talking to that player, you're like, oh, my God. But that is a result of your work. So for me, that was a real kind of stumble, because it's the first time that they'd really given me a set group of players. But you go back to, all right, my positional coach, he was like, look, this is what we need to work on. This is how you can help this guy out. Because there's still so much I don't know. And I think having that environment of support, not being berated, and them understanding that I was still pushing myself again outside of my comfort zone. So I think that's the environment piece that they were really helpful in.

Simon Ursell [00:25:55]:

Sure. Have you got any examples of the opposite, where you were challenged, had an obstacle you were struggling with in an environment that wasn't so good and how that felt?

Phoebe Schecter [00:26:08]:

Yeah. So I was volunteering, essentially at a university. It was like a rules thing, so I was living there. Like, again, head coaches basement, didn't make any money for this season, all of that stuff, and I felt like they gave me a job to do. We call it Tuck Dog. It's like basically a way to motivate the players and do all that. And it's that and self scout. And I didn't understand the game. Truthfully. This was a few years ago, but I didn't understand the game. And so you'd have to, at the end of it, give your recommendations to the coaching staff on what we should do based off of statistics analysis and all this. And I remember giving a couple of answers on what I felt we should do, and they just all kind of looked at me like I was dumb as a box of rocks. And I had no right to stand there and say that because I didn't understand. And I think that feeling in that moment makes you feel like, oh, my gosh, I never want to sue this again. You don't have that supportive. You could have managed that so much better, right. You could have said, oh, well, actually, this is why we do X, Y and Z, or, this is what this means in this situation.

Simon Ursell [00:27:35]:

Did you recognize that at the time that that was what was happening, or is that really reflecting now?

Phoebe Schecter [00:27:41]:

I think I just felt mortified at the time.

Simon Ursell [00:27:45]:

Sure.

Phoebe Schecter [00:27:47]:

And for me, I'm definitely someone that has to kind of step back and then really evaluate and think about what's going on. It doesn't always immediately hit me because I always want to think the best of people. That, for me, is always key. Right. No one would ever intentionally make you feel bad, but when you step back, you think, oh, my gosh, how many people would just leave the sport potentially off of that or just quit? And I know it's just one instance, and I wouldn't want to speak badly of anyone, but I just think people can they don't always reflect themselves because when something's so normal to you and then someone comes in and just says something, you're like, you don't know anything. Like, if I tried to talk to you about rugby, you'd probably be like, Buddy.

Simon Ursell [00:28:37]:

I don't know. Well, that's a great I think that's going to really resonate with a lot of people. I think it's really important to understand that everybody goes through those challenges and those feelings, and it's how you react to it, right?

Phoebe Schecter [00:28:51]:

Yeah. And again, understanding.

Simon Ursell [00:28:56]:

Did you leave or did you go somewhere?

Phoebe Schecter [00:28:57]:

No, I saved for the season. Yeah. Safe for the. Season. And I think you just have to be more cautious with how people's words affect you. And there was a definite element of this was early, my first real long internship. So it goes back to that earned piece. Like, I wanted to earn my stories. I wanted to earn my right to be somewhere. So for me, those are the quote unquote battle scars that you build and you can look back. Oh, man. When I'm talking with other coaches, you can be like, oh, yeah, I was terrible. I was embarrassed at this time. And it becomes part of your you find a way to turn it positive, I guess.

Simon Ursell [00:29:34]:

So you're almost grateful for that challenge.

Phoebe Schecter [00:29:37]:

Yeah, I think you have to be, because every single thing that happens in every one of our lives, every single decision, it literally is directing you to who you are right now. I have flaws, absolutely. But I wouldn't change who I am. Everything that's happened to me in my life has led me to this exact moment right here, right now. And I think there's a lot of power in that because that also is so much who you are as an individual. I just think when you look at how you work in an environment, in an organization, the keys that I've found is, again, that belief. Believe in yourself. Someone might have given you an opportunity or opened a door for you, but you have to work your butt off to stay there, and you have to work hard to keep earning these new opportunities and then knowing what value you bring to an organization. And it doesn't have to be a tangible thing. It can be soft skills. It can be I am consistent all the time. I bring positive energy. Those are all things that really add a lot of value to an organization.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:48]:

Can I summarize what I've heard? Experiences are really important environments, really important. Spending time with experts and learning of them. But also, like, you spoke a lot about moments and opportunities. And again, I think about my daughter, who's relatively introverted and would like and that would involve it sounds like you've done quite a bit of work on yourself.

Phoebe Schecter [00:31:13]:

Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:13]:

And understanding. Like, almost, like, getting better at feeling, like, understanding, okay, this makes me feel like this. Oh, that's really interesting. I might need to check in with one of my trusted friends around this. Or if they haven't and I love the bit at the end around you'll. Then people often think it's just them. Then you'll sit around the table with everyone else, and they'll go, oh, yeah, that happened to me loads.

Phoebe Schecter [00:31:36]:

Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:36]:

Happens all the time. And it's really common, obviously, in coaching and with you, Simon, leadership as well, like, the battle scars. And again, I think we might spoke about this, Simon, but often people will do those type of sessions, like a battle scar session, where you can get someone like old and haggard like me and Simon, and you can ask young people like you, Phoebe, to come and ask some great questions. And again, it's just helpful to go, okay, that happened to them as well. I think it is a gift at the time. Sometimes it doesn't feel like a gift.

Phoebe Schecter [00:32:08]:

Yeah, I couldn't agree more.

Simon Ursell [00:32:10]:

So do we think that if your.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:13]:

Killer question here we go, here we go.

Simon Ursell [00:32:17]:

It might be a killer question, it probably won't. I'm going to have faith challenge myself.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:25]:

However, if isn't a killer question, let's make him feel bad about it.

Simon Ursell [00:32:30]:

Yeah, okay. Let's get some more scars. So if somebody is in an environment that is feeling toxic, super challenging, they're developing a lot of scars, they got two people that they're going to tell them their questions. Rubbish if it is, do we think that they should stay in that environment and carry on challenging themselves? At what point do we think a toxic environment becomes toxic and you got to get out? Or a toxic environment is something that you're actually developing great experience from.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:04]:

Well, I work with lots of coaches who are in those type of environments and probably the first question I ask them is, how old are you? How many kids do you have? Because I think it depends, doesn't it? I think sometimes you might be able to benefit from some of those experiences later on. If you are like young, keen, got good support around you, not like, got a family that you're taking it home to. I'm not saying those are the only variables, but for me it depends. I've had a terrible boss, honestly, at least one terrible boss. And so you learn a lot from that about yourself, don't you? I learned loads from even a simple thing. Like Fletch said to me once, rusty, do you realize every time he speaks, you shake your head? That's really helpful feedback, I appreciate that. So, yeah, look, we don't want to have like, smooth waters, do we? Because that's not going to necessarily help us. We don't want it to be too extreme that it's like, we're going to end up in hospital with this or it's going to be impact upon loved ones. I think it's different, isn't it, for different people?

Simon Ursell [00:34:16]:

So it depends.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:17]:

It depends on what you think.

Phoebe Schecter [00:34:19]:

Yeah, because everyone's so different. What Rusty can withstand may not be the same as someone else can withstand. And I think knowing that about yourself and knowing how far you can push it or stay in that environment before you're thinking, this is actually going to start having an effect on my mental health, or I'm taking it home to my family, I think it's key to be able to call out those moments. And again, I think that comes back to the support group you have too, who are able to be like, I think you should probably move on now.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:51]:

The levels changed, aren't they? So things like the first time someone said to me, rusty, you're taking a meeting in half an hour, and me going, what? Sorry. But of course now it would be easy to take a meeting, or when we did our level four, like, you're going to go coaching a women's netball in an hour's time. And I'm like, no, you're definitely confusing me with someone else at this moment in time. But of course I would now be really happy doing that, but if I hadn't gone through those experiences, if I hadn't had people hold my hand and help me and catch me when I'm falling and great people alongside me, then you don't get to those points, do you?

Phoebe Schecter [00:35:28]:

No.

Simon Ursell [00:35:29]:

You can also train yourself to have more capacity to deal with challenge there, can't you? I mean, you can do that. I've been working on myself quite a bit on this, to allow myself to have more capacity. I think you touched on that early, phoebe, have you got any stories around that?

Phoebe Schecter [00:35:47]:

Well, I do think a lot of it comes to looking at your whole life as well, right? How you've been raised to how you manage yourself throughout all these big life experiences. I don't think I would be the same if I had my hand held, so to speak, throughout my whole younger years. I think there has to be a level of independence, there has to be a level of strength to it as well, or at least later in life, an awareness of who you are and how you're willing to push yourself and know that it's not going to be easy. And I think a lot of people say, oh, it's not going to be easy, it's not going to be easy, but know what that means, know what that feels like. And I think it's harder later in life if you've never felt what not being easy feels like, because then you go through it once and you think, oh, my gosh, but it's always on the other side, everything's. You're like, oh, that's not so bad. I mean, not, not to relate to, like, pregnancy or something, but if people knew that it was as horrible as this, they probably wouldn't do it again. But you forget those moments afterwards as well, and then it's like, all right, well, because I felt so good about having this child or whatever it is afterwards. That was my best analogy. It's not great.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:05]:

And there's actually certain industries that will take you to that extreme. So if you are learning to be a comedian, then they'll go through the dying on stage process with you almost intentionally storytellers the same, improv same. Like, I was speaking to an improv guy the other day and he's mostly.

Simon Ursell [00:37:23]:

Anxious, just talking about, yeah, he said.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:25]:

We have a game called the dying on stage.

Phoebe Schecter [00:37:27]:

Oh, my God.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:29]:

And then people essentially get put into a situation you can't recover from it and you will end up dying on stage. And so you're then able to go, okay, well, there's the worst that can happen.

Phoebe Schecter [00:37:45]:

Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:37:45]:

So important.

Phoebe Schecter [00:37:46]:

Massively.

Simon Ursell [00:37:47]:

Well, it's been amazing. I mean, genuinely, really quite wonderful. I really enjoyed talking to you, Phoebe. Thanks for coming on.

Phoebe Schecter [00:37:56]:

Thanks for having me. I can't wait to hear all these incredible stories that you have.

Simon Ursell [00:38:00]:

Yeah, keep your ears peeled over that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:06]:

Well, cool. Paul dad. Hopefully the listeners can now understand why we're both living our life through Phoebe.

Simon Ursell [00:38:11]:

Yeah. Impressive lady.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:13]:

Well, let's go. Let's do two each. What's the kind of take homes. Let's go. Alternate, you first. What have you got for me?

Simon Ursell [00:38:20]:

Okay. I love the phrase humble and confident. I mean, that is so cool, isn't it? It just speaks of Phoebe and Ash attitude to life, which is, you know, she's just so confident, but very, very humble about it as well. And I love that. I also really like when she she's learnt through the experiences she's had, some of her bounce back ability is down to her being clear about what her opinion is and clear about what other people's opinion is, and their opinion is their opinion, and she kind of allows that, which I think is that's so powerful. So, yeah, those are my two those are the two sort of things that really stuck out to me.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:00]:

Nice. I love the way we didn't do alternatives and you just did both yours together.

Simon Ursell [00:39:03]:

I appreciate that. That's okay. I thought I'd get mine in first.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:08]:

Because otherwise I'd speak for the rest of it. We've only got two minutes. Yeah, look, for me, again, linking it to bounce back ability, probably the stuff that's helped to be really good at it. So, actually, a multitude of experiences in lots of different environments that have given her different challenges. So she spoke about, like, mental challenges and she didn't use the word, but almost like impostor syndrome and actually some challenging conversations she's had to have. And so all of those, I guess, equipped her with the skills to bounce back. And the second thing for me was just being really aware of when her environments are the helping or hindering you. And she talked about probably getting yourself out of toxic environments, but also how those toxic environments can lead to bad habits, and so it becomes self perpetuating. And we see this everywhere, don't we, with tradition, and I guess just really aware that she's trying to break some of those habits. She's pretty cool.

Simon Ursell [00:40:05]:

Yeah. Such a cool podcast. I really loved it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:08]:

Over and out. Thanks so much for joining us on the Band Speculability podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you want to reach out to us, Simon, where can they reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:40:19]:

LinkedIn's best place? Simon Ursul. U-R-S for sugar. E-L-L. Send me a message. Russell where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:26]:

TikTok no, not really LinkedIn. Russell and Shaw and then the same on Twitter. But please ignore all my political thoughts.

Simon Ursell [00:40:33]:

Yeah, second that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:35]:

Over and out.