Shaping an Environment of Resilience with Prof. Mustafa Sarkar | Episode 7

In today’s episode of the Bouncebackability Podcast, we have the pleasure of talking to Associate Professor of Sport and Performance Psychology, Dr Mustafa Sarkar. Join us as we take a deep-dive into the parallels and learning opportunities that come from elite sport, with special focus on how the environment shapes the performance and resilience of team productivity and mindset. 

Mustafa shares his own experience and some fantastic real-life examples highlighting the importance of defining resilience within organisations; the symbiosis between performance and well-being, and the benefits that come from re-framing the way we view pressure and developing a healthy challenge mindset.

Mustafa is a Chartered Psychologist with the British Psychological Society. He works closely with teams and organisations to create environments and cultures that develop resilience and psychological safety. His impressive client list includes Google, the Premier League, the English Football Association and numerous international Olympic Committees.

Enjoy the show!

In this episode:

[00:07:13] Changing the mindset - should we re-frame resilience as how we handle pressure and is it important to be challenged?

[00:18:31] How creating a positive and comfortable environment can foster an open and honest conversation within teams and individuals.

[00:20:51] Changing a culture takes time and buy-in. Proactive development leads to resilience. 

[00:37:21] Has resilience lost its meaning? The importance of defining resilience in organisations.

[00:41:05] Why balancing performance and well-being is essential for individual and organisational growth.

You can connect with Mustafa here:

LinkedIn:

Dr Mustafa Sarkar | LinkedIn

Twitter: @MusSarkar

Nottingham Trent University Profile

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

 https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:01]:

Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:08]:

Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell [00:00:09]:

Looking forward to it. Listen on. Hi. Welcome to the pod. We're, gonna be talking to Mustafa shortly. Really Excited about this one. He's such such an interesting guy.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:22]:

Well, let's hope his interest doesn't wane by the time you have Ground him down with your microphones.

Simon Ursell [00:00:27]:

Well, at least I turned up to the to the university rather than staying at home, Rusty. I think, you know, I I made the effort.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:35]:

Zoom is a thing in case you didn't realize. Blend it's a blended meeting.

Simon Ursell [00:00:39]:

Yeah. Yeah. It's all good. It's all good. So, yeah, what what do you think we're gonna find out about, bounce back ability on this one then, Rusty.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:46]:

Yeah. Look. Moe's one of the cleverest people I've met, really. He brings to life This stuff. He has real good theoretical understanding of it, but we'll, I'm sure, share lots of stories and great quotes and ideas to help the listeners, translated into their environment. And one of the things I'm sure he'll talk about is, well, a, it's not just individual, and, b, the environment is super important, but also, like, It's contextual, so, sure, look, people are gonna leave with loads of great ideas

Simon Ursell [00:01:14]:

Oh, no doubt. As a result. No doubt. Gonna be one of the best, I think. Very privileged. Okay. Onto the pod.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:22]:

Welcome to the pod. And Simon has driven all the way up to Nottingham to, Meet up with, Staffa Sarka, associate professor at Nottingham Trent University, and, in my eyes, one of the cleverest people Simon has ever sat with. We are gonna delve a little bit into resilience and, I guess, where that sits around our podcast title of Bands Back Ability. So Let's, dive into it. Mustafa, how are you, mate? And and many apologies for having spent probably 40 minutes of your life. You're never gonna get back Trying to sort out microphones with Simon.

Simon Ursell [00:01:57]:

I I think you should definitely be in charge of microphones next time, Rusty.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:01]:

It would definitely get done quicker.

Mustafa [00:02:04]:

Looking forward to the conversation. Thanks for the, for the invite.

Simon Ursell [00:02:07]:

Yeah. So, it's really great to have you on the pod Talking about bounce back ability, something I think you're pretty well qualified as an associate professor to talk about. Don't wanna make you blush too much. But, yeah, that's, it was pretty cool to have you here. So, do you wanna tell us a little bit about your Your story, how you became to get so interested in this stuff?

Mustafa [00:02:29]:

Yes. So, I guess, personally, got interested in sports psychology through Through playing sport myself, kind of technically and tactically very good, legspin bowler and cricket, but actually, psychologically found it really, really challenging and difficult, particularly converting, training into competition, and also taking on board kind of coach feedback. So it just got me really interested in terms of why is it that some athletes are able to Deal with the pressures of of elite sport and and perform under pressure, whereas others like myself really, really struggled, with those demands and and actually, in some cases, actually underperformed. So, yeah, that I kind of I guess that kind of sporting journey got me interested in understanding the psychology of of sporting and performance excellence more broadly, and also how how individuals can deal with deal with the pressures of of elite sport.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:26]:

I was gonna say, Can I just I mean, obviously, the Ash is on at the moment, and so I'm interested? I mean, a, are you watching it? And, b, like, what does your lens look like? Because I'm thinking of, like, Ben Stokes, Mobo Bats said to me the big moments find him. I also interested a guess a little bit in When you spoke about, like, receiving feedback and, you know, was that ever you know, were those were those things you were practicing, like, were you practicing, like, In order to bounce back, were you were you practicing, like, big moments regularly, but also were you practicing oh, you're shaking your head with me already. Sorry. So, Sorry, mister Taylor. And and were you practicing receiving feedback?

Mustafa [00:04:07]:

In short, no. So and I think that that's interesting. We'll we'll talk, I guess, later on about the environment. Like, I For me, coach, I I had a really, really good coach, so there's there's no question about that. But I think in training, just the I wasn't under any pressure in training at all whatsoever. So when I came Competition. And when I was under pressure, I I would say I definitely choked under that pressure for sure. So so no.

Mustafa [00:04:29]:

I I don't think I don't think I I had that Kind of practice of big moments or or big pressure. And in terms of feedback, yeah, there there wasn't really much. Feedback tended to be Very, very technical from the coaches. And at that young age, speaking to Simon earlier on that, you know, when you're 14, 15, all you wanna do is play play, have fun, Enjoy the game. You're not really interested about where your foot positioning is and where your arm movements are and things like that. So I guess For me, yeah, obviously, feedback's really, really important, but the balance between technical feedback and feedback, that's just gonna help you improve, You know, enjoy the game a little bit further. And on on reflection, I think coaches could have done for me. Could've give could've given me a little bit more opportunity to To face challenge in training, but also tailor the feedback a little bit better, I think, because, yeah, like, the technical feedback just didn't sit.

Mustafa [00:05:23]:

It stopped me enjoying the game, actually. It got got me less motivated to to wanting to play.

Simon Ursell [00:05:29]:

Do you still play now?

Mustafa [00:05:30]:

No. Well, I I play very recreationally. What they know, a staff cricket games might happen, you know, couple of times over the summer. I've got a community team that we play again very, very irregularly. So I think for me, that's the other thing. So we know that people not everyone's gonna be making it to that elite level. In fact, very, very few people are, and I guess, you know, ultimately, coaches are are predominantly coaching in terms of helping people to to fulfill their kind of Enjoyment of the game in terms of long lifelong kind of participation. And and that that for me is an interesting thing is that although I had an absolute love of the game from when I was 8, till probably when I was 18, I'm now not playing playing regularly, which is interesting.

Simon Ursell [00:06:09]:

It's quite good feedback for people running the game now, isn't it? If you wanna keep people in the game, If it's about participation, fun is everything, isn't it? I mean, you know, if there's not many people making it through to elite sport, Why do we spend so much time coaching everybody to be elite athletes?

Mustafa [00:06:27]:

Yeah. And I think you I think you can be you can be you can have fun, and you can be competitive. Part. I I was definitely competitive. I know I always wanted to win the game instead of we were we were playing. But as you said, yeah, that that competitive element does that then Get pushed through a little bit too much where you actually then lose the fun element. So yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:44]:

I mean, every every cloud has a silver We are now sat here with you today because of that very reason. So I guess your journey into investigating resilience, As in many cases, like lots of sports psychologists I meet, you know, struggled, as players. So so what what have you found out? So that's probably helpful been helpful for you, but also as, as as I know, you're helping lots of other people.

Mustafa [00:07:13]:

Yeah. I I think I think for me, When it comes to resilience, at the individual level anyway, one of the key kind of areas is this idea of what we call a challenge mindset, which is Helping individuals reframe how pressure is viewed. And, again, that's for me what what was really interesting is when I whenever I got coach feedback or I had also kind of parental expectations, which I I found difficult to deal with. I was always looking at at that as a negative, as a threat To my own kind of performance, whereas we know that those who demonstrate resilience are just able to view pressure as a As a challenge, view pressure as an opportunity to develop and to grow rather than viewing pressure as a threat. And, again, there's lots of things individually that can be done to help people Reframe that pressure. And I and I always make a point here that resilience and the challenge mindset is not about positive thinking. It's not just about changing negative thoughts into positive part. Thoughts, but it's about recognizing that there is an alternative way to view a a situation or an event or a circumstance and helping people to do that.

Simon Ursell [00:08:18]:

So one of the things we spoke about earlier, that I know you are particularly interested in is is the definition Resilience? Well, it actually means because resilience is a buzzword, isn't it? I mean, our podcast is Bounce Back Ability. We kinda deliberately avoided the word resilience, So there we we mentioned it quite a bit. How do we define resilience then? What do we do?

Mustafa [00:08:39]:

Yeah. And and I guess for me, the reason I'm so passionate about it is with resilience being a bit of a buzzword, The the word resilience is starting to be lost in translation. And as a result, teams and organizations are trying to develop resilience in so many different ways, which actually don't align with how actually resilience is being defined. So in real, real simple terms, resilience, practically, I would define it as the ability To maintain functioning when under pressure. And when we're talking about sport or business, we're talking about maintaining functioning, which is not just about performance, But it's also about well-being. So the ability to maintain performance and well-being when under pressure. And there are many myths and misconceptions around resilience. We've written a chapter around it.

Mustafa [00:09:22]:

We did a a webinar around, you know, myths and misconceptions of resilience in In high performance sport, probably haven't got loads of times to go through all of that in detail, but probably the main the main area I would I'll probably say is that People often think that resilience is this fixed trait that you're either born with, you either have, or you don't have. And what we've started to realize is that resilience is What we call a dynamic process, which means it's context specific. Our resilience level's gonna kind of change from situation to situation, But also resilience is time dependent. Our resilience levels can either increase or decrease over time. And I guess for me, the other the other reason why I'm I'm really keen to to make sure we define resilience correctly, those are really nice. Oh, I say nice. It was a damning kind of review, caught the white review. I'm sure, audience will have heard about it in terms of maltreatment and abuse in British gymnastics.

Mustafa [00:10:17]:

So what they found was the white review covered many different things. But what they found that the culture to develop resilience and I'm I'm putting resilience in inverted commas. The culture to develop resilience contributed to maltreatment and abuse in the sport. And when you read the right review in more detail, There were coach curriculum materials as recent as 2020 defining resilience as the ability to suffer. Wow. So if we're defining resilience as the ability to suffer, there's no surprise to me then we're getting to the situation where there's an abuse and maltreatment in the sport. So That's why although kind of academics get hit hard, okay, why why do we have to go so technical? Why do we have to go so academic with definitions and descriptions? If we don't get the definition right, it can have really dangerous consequences.

Simon Ursell [00:11:06]:

Well, that I think is I mean, you know, you see it you see it in all walks of life day, not just sport, I mean, certainly in the business world, politics, all sorts of organizations. You see people Using resilience as an excuse to behave badly. Yeah. And that's not resilience, is it? That's just

Mustafa [00:11:23]:

abuse. No. And and also, I think that links another myth that often when we think about resilience, We often put a lot of emphasis on the individual. So often resilience the myth is that resilience is is solely an individual responsibility, but we Know that resilience is relational, so developing and cultivating high quality relationships really, really important when it comes to resilience. And also resilience is environmental. The the environmental Conditions that are created can either facilitate someone's resilience or can actually undermine their resilience. So, I think and and and a link to the to that White Review, there's a really nice quote in the, article in the Harvard Business Review that resilience is our ability, to recharge, not our ability to endure. Again, there's a there's a myth that resilience is about working harder, working longer, Being more determined in in the context of sport, it was interesting to see the Ashes actually around Nathan Lyons who came on limping on, Playing whilst injured, and that's often seen as a sign of resilience.

Mustafa [00:12:22]:

And I would actually I think that other I think that's just stupidity, to be honest with you. So, you know, resilience, actually, we know that rest and recovery play a massive role in terms of being able to maintain functioning under pressure. It's not just about working harder, working longer, enduring, not giving up, etcetera.

Simon Ursell [00:12:40]:

Absolutely. So in terms of Environment, personal responsibility, are those equal things?

Mustafa [00:12:48]:

Yeah. I get asked that question a lot. So really nice, article in There's a lot of really interesting stuff actually in health care. So there's really, interesting article looking at resilience in surgeons, and the title of the article was, do you train the individual? There was a there was a debate about do you train the individual or do you change the system? I'm not saying on the fence. I actually think whether it's 5050, I don't know, but I would say it's a combination of the 2. I think training the individual is really, really important. There is There is a lot of things individuals can do to to develop their own resilience, but I would argue that training the individual is likely to lead to short term changes. Whereas I think changing the system is likely to be a lot more difficult.

Mustafa [00:13:30]:

It's gonna take, you know, months, If not years, rather than training the individual, that might take weeks. But changing the system, in my view, is likely to develop resilience In the in the medium to long term in a in a sustained way. So I think it's a combination of the 2. If you were to say which one, I would You say changing the system is is more likely to to to lead to to sustain change over a period of time.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:56]:

Have you got some examples of, like, what you mean by changing the system?

Mustafa [00:14:00]:

Yes. Yeah. So I I guess, you know, when we when we when we talk about, resilience in the environment. We've developed, a 2 by 2 kind of challenge and support matrix. So when we're When we're talking about the environment, we kind of argue that organizations, managers, coaches, etcetera, think about how they But provide an appropriate balance between challenge and support. And in the environments that I've often been, they there are there are other organizations, Teams, etcetera, that provide lots of challenge, but probably don't provide enough support. But then there are also some teams and organizations provide lots and lots of support, but then probably not enough challenge. So in terms of changing the system, I think part of that is that it's It's it's providing that make making sure that there is that appropriate balance there between challenge and support.

Simon Ursell [00:14:52]:

That's fascinating. Rusty, Mustafa and I were chatting beforehand about Tyler Grange. And, when I met you, getting you into trying to help some of our graduates transition from university into Tyler Grange and the sort of things we could do. And I think we, try to Eliminate challenge at Tyler Grange. Take it away and make it a very safe place where people could experiment, make mistakes, feel really super safe. But I think we went too far. We we took challenge away and that actually really inhibited growth and actually made people feel very stressed, very safe. Even though that was not the intention, and, yeah, I really hear you.

Simon Ursell [00:15:36]:

The the there's a there's a we don't get it right. We try. We don't I don't think anybody gets it completely right. We're we're so we're now we we've gone back the other way, and and we're we're putting in quite a lot of challenge, Having to rebuild that back in, which we've been doing pretty successfully. I mean, you can see the change in in an organization when you do that. I think you can Become too safe, which actually then becomes

Mustafa [00:16:02]:

unsafe. Yeah. We, in terms of that environment that you're talking about there, so in this 2 by 2 matrix that we developed, we kind of split it into, like, you know, high challenge, low support, which we call kind of an unrelenting environment where I see a lot of organizations in sport and business where there's lots and lots of challenge, little support, in in the name of developing resilience. So that's where you get all of this kind of winning at all costs, environments and cultures. But I I always argue that actually that there is absolutely no need for anyone to be in an unrelenting environment. The the the negative consequences of that in terms of burnout, dropout, isolation, mental health, mental ill health, I I cannot a lot of people tell me that, you know, if I'm being challenging, I can't be supportive. And if I'm being supportive, I can't be challenging. But You can be challenging and supportive at the same time, and that can have a positive impact on both performance and well-being.

Mustafa [00:16:59]:

There isn't in In sports psychology, we have lots of debates about, you know, is our role about performance or is it about well-being? I think we need to move away from that. Performance and well-being should collectively be the to to should be the outcome at the end. That that doesn't need to be a sacrifice of 1 or the other.

Simon Ursell [00:17:15]:

A healthy mentally healthy, The mentally fit, emotionally fit athlete is gonna be a high performing athlete. So they're they're not they're the same thing.

Mustafa [00:17:23]:

But there's all there's always been this kind of debate about is, you know You know, it's a real role responsibility 1 or the other, and, yeah, we we need to move away from that kind of separation and think about it kind of collectively. But the environment that you were talking about it being too safe in some This is what we call kind of a high support, low challenge, and it's a comfortable environment. Now there's nothing wrong about being in a comfortable environment. You know? From a from a well-being mental health point of view, being in a comfortable environment can be absolutely fine. It's just recognizing that in a comfortable environment, it's Unlikely to have high levels of performance if you're in that environment for a prolonged period of time.

Simon Ursell [00:17:59]:

Yeah. Sure. I mean, we noticed that people actually got very stressed Because they knew it wasn't a comfortable environment, really, and it wasn't very honest. Yeah. And actually, we had to perform. I mean, businesses have to perform. We have the The ultimate measure which is if we don't make enough money, we go bust. And I think people knew they had to perform, say, not having that Challenge meant they were very unsure as to where safety was, especially because sometimes we people had to move on from the business And then really understand why because we'd always been so positive.

Mustafa [00:18:31]:

And I think also in that comfortable environment, you talk about conversation. I think in a comfortable environment, a lot of the time, Difficult conversations are avoided, because, you know, in in a facilitative environment, what What we call a kind of high challenge and high support, you can have those open and honest conversations. And it doesn't necessarily mean I I think that's the other thing. It doesn't necessarily mean you're You're best friends with one another, whether that's in a sporting environment between coaches and athletes, or between managers and employees. It doesn't necessarily mean you're best friends, but there is that kind of Trust and respect and that openness and honesty where you can you can you have the humility to kind of share, you know, highlight good performances, but also have the Kind of humility to kind of put your hand up and say, actually, I got this wrong here or, you know, highlight, you know, where where there's in areas of for improvement.

Simon Ursell [00:19:18]:

Yeah. You know you have to perform. You gotta feel like your boss has got your back. Yeah. And they're they're there to help, not to hinder or blame. So, yeah, in a challenging way.

Mustafa [00:19:28]:

Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:28]:

Yeah. Yeah. I guess, I was just trying to write down, and I guess what maybe summarize some of the stuff I've heard so far. So I think that, like, you're describing resilience as it's contextual. It's individualized. It's probably a response. And it's almost like, what's the you know, can people take the next step under pressure? Clearly, like, the peer group is vital in that, if that's an organization or a team or whatever. And then I was thinking as you were talking there about what are the skills that, like, would exist in, environments that were built to allow people to bounce back.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:20:04]:

So, like, some stuff I was writing down, the ability to cocreate, the ability to To give choice really well and, the the ability to encourage ownership, kindness, and I think kindness is also like telling people, you know, where the line is, Giving and receiving feedback, having important and, conversations around things like difference, Self awareness. Like, there's quite a lot of, I guess, stuff and skills that would go into a environment that would allow you to be high support And I challenge. And, I guess, is that when you're talking about it takes time to change, is that because of the a little bit because people, I guess this is how we've always done things, but also I guess there's a a skills deficit as well.

Mustafa [00:20:51]:

Yeah. And I and I think, obviously, as we know, like, In any kind of environmental system, if the things have been done in a certain way over a period of time, trying to change the culture where where you you do things slightly differently, that That's gonna require buy in, I think, from everyone within that team or organization, and buy in takes takes time. But I always say, you know, Those characteristics, Rashi, spot on in terms of ultimately, you want individuals in that environment to be very, very proactive in terms of their development. So whether that's seek actually, Rather than waiting for feedback, I guess if you if you look at even my situation, rather than actually waiting for feedback to come from the coach, I, you know, If I was in that environment, I I you know, me actually con you know, seeking out feedback, craving that feedback, and actually seeking out that feedback, rather than waiting for challenge to come to you, actually going to a coach or going to a manager to say, okay. What can I what can I do to challenge myself? What can be put in place to, to help me develop and to grow. So I I often say a big characteristic around resilience is actually that proactivity. Putting there's a really nice quote again in in the Harvard Business Review that resilience is not about responding to a setback, but it's about, the the ability to change before the case for change becomes obvious. You know, having that Having that kind of, you know, putting plans and strategies in place before you actually need to.

Mustafa [00:22:15]:

That's hard. That's that's not you know, you can't always predict what's gonna happen, but It's having that proactive approach, I think, rather than resilient and that bounce back phrase, which I have to say I'm quite hesitant about because bounce back Suggest that it's always react.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:22:28]:

It's too late for us it's too late for us to change the, pod title now and stuff, unfortunately, but it was, Probably more of a reference to, how soccer I am. Yeah. I mean, you're fueling all my biases around ownership. So ownership is super important. What I would also say is, so the best if I think about sports, the best players I've been around, so I've been lucky enough to be around, You know, like Jude Bellingham, Marcus Smith, Tom Curry, players like that, they are always thinking that 1 step ahead. So they are going, what's the next challenge I'm likely to get? How am I gonna prepare for it? Whereas other people are relatively responsive to that. And I guess When you were speaking earlier, you spoke about people's, you know, ability to deal with stress. Well, for those players, like, it almost doesn't become stress Because they predicted what's coming next, and it's not necessarily as novel a situation as it might be for other people.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:25]:

Yeah. I've I've been thinking about that a lot and actually asking people in business, you know, like, what's the next challenge you're gonna Need to overcome, how are you currently preparing for it? Who's helping you with it? Why? And just see how much clarity they have on that stuff, And it's limited.

Mustafa [00:23:40]:

I and I think that that's for me, that's where I think often when you when you position resilience, resilience is positioned as this reactive skill or capacity. Whereas I'm I'm trying to kind of encourage individuals to think in teams and organizations that the best way to think about developing resilience is actually as a proactive approach to Managing pressure and stress rather than just as a reactive approach.

Simon Ursell [00:24:03]:

Sure. So in defense of the pod, it's the ability to bounce back. It's not bouncing back itself.

Mustafa [00:24:08]:

Yes. Yes. The ability and and and and also that We

Simon Ursell [00:24:11]:

can keep the title, Rusty. We're good.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:13]:

Yeah. I would maybe we wouldn't as well say, like stuff like Gary plans like stuff from pre morteming and imagining situations in advance, playing them out, practicing them, role playing, like, all that type of stuff that's Proactive, and often not happening because I guess one of the reasons organizations might not be Both of this is because they're on the hamster wheel, and they don't you said, oh, well, we'd want everyone to, like, well, you know, own their own development, and Often they don't have time or people don't set aside time to do that.

Mustafa [00:24:45]:

And I and I think going back to that kind of the proactive approach, I think that's where organization Need to kind of look in the mirror a little bit in the sense that think about their own responsibility rather than actually putting the emphasis on the Purely on the individual to do something about it. We were talking beforehand about something that I'm really you know, I I I get asked a lot, you know, Mustafa, can you do a can you do a resilience webinar for us? Can you do a resilience workshop for us? And I say, yeah. I'm happy to do that, but ultimately, that's not gonna solve That's not gonna develop resilience sustainably. If you want me to do a one off session, and you're you're but, again, doing asking Asking employees or athletes to attend a workshop is putting the, the responsibility on the individual that you've got something wrong with your resilience, so you need to attend something To to to do something about it rather than actually thinking, okay, environmentally, what what are we doing that might actually be undermining their resilience? So, look, don't get me wrong. I'm I'm I'm I think there's lots of things that the individuals can do. Webinars and workshops are really useful, but that if that's the only way that organizations Are developing resilience in their athletes or their staff. Ultimately, that's not gonna work in the

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:52]:

long term. And what have you heard? I mean, where where have people Been doing good stuff. You got some great examples of organizations that are being proactive in this area.

Mustafa [00:26:01]:

One, probably, I know, Russell, you've done some some work with them. I I think Google have done some really interesting things around resilience actually. Specifically, They well, they've got actually a whole they've got a whole unit around resilience development. And it's not just about it's not just about, working with The Googlers themselves, but actually working with managers and leaders, that's something I've been really impressed by. I've I've been I'm involved in a little bit of that work and something that I've been really It's been really interesting to see actually is that they're not just focusing in on employees. They're focusing on training managers and leaders to think about the environments and cultures that they're creating, and the resources, the the, yeah, the time that that people are spending around that area, I think it's really, really, really Good to see, actually. It's not it doesn't seem to be just a bit of a tick box exercise. It seems to be a little bit more more

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:51]:

Yeah. And you'll be getting Simon excited about his lunch at Google now, so, So, I'm sure it's coming any second. Well, they've got project oxygen, haven't they? Where they talk about, you know, like, the number one skill of a good manager is His ability to coach, which is lots of the stuff we're speaking about, isn't it?

Mustafa [00:27:08]:

Yeah. And and project Aristotle, which was also really cool to see in terms of particularly around psychological safety. But they they they they really they do seem to put, you know and at the end of the day, well, the other other the example I actually that I give now that there are lots of things that they do which Some people might kind of critique, but the US army has spent over a 100,000,000 US dollars on building soldiers resilience. And it's not just the fact That they put money behind it because money is not the end, not everything. But what I really like about that particular example is there was buy in All the way from congress, all the way to senior management, to soldiers, and, also, it was Integrated as part of the community with the families and with veterans. So for me, resilience development is everyone's business. It it's some if if you can see that actually it's been done across an organization where everyone buys into it. And in in the context of sport, that Could be athletes, but it could also be coaches, parents, if everyone is part of that rather than as as a cultural kind of and and and the other bit Is that it needs to be integrated.

Mustafa [00:28:14]:

I think that's for me the other thing interesting thing with psychology is that often when we think about Psychology, sports psychology, performance psychology, the it's just about workshops. We'll do we'll do a workshop, and we'll do it as a separate thing to The physical or the technical development. Whereas, actually, if you integrate psychology into the day to day, into the week to week, then that's likely to be more effective rather than just as a separate thing in isolation. So that that's another thing I think that's really important when it comes to the environment is how do you how do you integrate it into the Into the fabric.

Simon Ursell [00:28:45]:

Oh, absolutely. I mean, I I I couldn't agree more with that. I mean, we've had our eyes opened by working with Suzanne Brown, as a psychologist within Tyler Grange, the the the impact she's had on our resilience has been all about the organization. She runs workshops. She does 1 to 1 sessions with our team to help them build their personal resilience up Mental changes around the whole business and the way we approach our work. She helped us go into things like doing Pretty significant things like 4 day weeks, that sort of thing, has been fairly fundamental in terms of changing how we look at our culture and our environment to Help people perform well when, it's difficult. So I completely hear that. So I I guess what I'm really hearing is the first thing, anybody listening to this who's thinking, I wanna build resilience in my organization, in my business, So my team, and wherever I wherever I am, first thing really is let's stop focusing on, oh, millennial snowflakes or any of this nonsense and start thinking, actually, how is my organization set up to be resilient? That's that's probably first thing you wanna do, start at the top, talk to the senior leadership, get by and look at the whole structure, then start training managers, train them to be coaches, Helping people to support other people, and then maybe you can start looking at the individual resilience.

Simon Ursell [00:30:17]:

But if you haven't got the environment right, You're probably banging your head on a wall and getting frustrated because people just aren't gonna be resilient in an environment that's not set up to be.

Mustafa [00:30:26]:

Yeah. And I and I and I think for me that the first bit It's actually auditing the environment. If you go back to the challenge and support matrix, you know, in terms of where where do you sit on that spectrum, you know, are you high challenge, low support in in the unrelenting environment? What if you also notice some of those characteristics, I mean, you know, Russ, you mentioned some of those characteristics of high challenge and high support. What are the characteristics of High challenge, low support. So you might see a bit of a blame culture where people are looking to blame other people. You might see isolation. You might see people, high turnover of staff. If you're starting to notice some of those things, that probably suggests that you're moving into this Desirable type of environment, and that then gives you the opportunity to then look in the mirror a little bit and think, okay.

Mustafa [00:31:06]:

We need to change those some of those kind of characteristics. I think, also, I I definitely agree that it's about training managers, coaches, etcetera. But something I've seen particularly in business actually, to some extent also in sport, Is we've also gotta be mindful that managers and coaches now are getting a lot of pressure to do so many different things. So, I often say that when I speak to managers and coaches, it's that it's really important for you to think about your own levels of resilience first Before you can think about developing resilience in others. So I think although, you know, the although environmentally, there's a lot of emphasis on leadership, I think we also need to, leadership need to think about their own self care as part of that

Simon Ursell [00:31:55]:

process as well. A good point. First thing Suzanne did with us Was put us on a 6 month course on our own emotional fitness, emotional intelligence. We we spent 6 months working with her before we even Look to bringing that into the wider business. So, yeah, I really I I really hear that. And I and I think from my experience, I don't know how you think about this, but fresh eyes. Trying to do this yourself on your own, thinking I'm gonna try some things out, I think you really are gonna struggle. I think it's it's important to get people you know what they're talking you have some training and and understand this to come in and help you and to have and to be open Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:32:33]:

And not and not be too close and not to have To shut a view around this because, you know, your your organization, you might be very precious about it. And, you know, you might feel that changing, you They need to change. Keep having fresh eyes come in and help you understand some things that are gonna have a massive impact. It certainly worked for us, but it but I can't I can't really overestimate how hard that was, I as well. I mean, we found it tough Yeah. But so rewarding.

Mustafa [00:33:02]:

Yeah. And And I and I think for me, like, it seems like Suzanne's done a done a great job. And I think that the the best people do tend to I I will always I would never ever go into a team and organization to say this is how things should be done because at the end of the day, you are the expert in your particular context. I guess all all I would do is say I'm I'm more of a facilitator in terms of Here are some principles that I think are kind of useful, but actually in terms of the application of those principles, that's where we can have a discussion and conversation because you're you're the expert in your context. I might be the expert in the topic area, but actually you're the expert in that context in terms of how those some of these principles might apply in your particular area. So I think we've gotta be we've also gotta be a little bit careful that way that people kind of going into teams and organizations to say this is how it should be done because I don't That would land particularly well either.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:48]:

Well, that's that's

Simon Ursell [00:33:49]:

just a really beautifully put way to coach and support people, isn't it? Yeah. They're the experts. You're there to help them be the best they can be, not Yeah. Not tell them how to do it. Yeah. Absolutely fascinating stuff. Really, really, really great to have you on. I think what Clay's there, some pretty profound stuff.

Simon Ursell [00:34:06]:

Thanks, Mustafa.

Mustafa [00:34:07]:

No worries at all. I I just just 1 I guess one phrase, I guess, to sum up the the environment, but I use this kind of quite quite often. It's not specific to resilience, But I think I I often use it in the context of resilience that when a when a flower doesn't bloom, you fix the environment in which it grows, not the flower. And a lot of the time when it comes to resilience development, we focus on the flower. We, you know, we focus on the individual. We don't necessarily think about the plant food, the sunlight, the watering, etcetera. Sure. And, again, I guess, linked to that, we've kind of, again, not taking credit for this at all whatsoever.

Mustafa [00:34:41]:

I came across this on LinkedIn about Helping coaches and managers think like gardeners, in terms of the soil, the plant food, the the right soil for the right plants, When irrigation's important, removing weeds, all of those kinds of you know, we can you can take that metaphor in many, many different ways, but I think that that flower analogy or that kind of gardener, Farmer analogy, I think, can kind of can be used from a resilience point of view in terms of thinking about

Simon Ursell [00:35:07]:

that. Beautiful image. Thank you.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:09]:

Yeah. Enjoying your analogy. You want a great way to finish Mustapha. And, of course, like, a a wilting flower is unable to help any other flowers. So I think that's probably, like, my biggest take home from you really is that they're like, gotta wear your own oxygen mask first, haven't you, before you can help people? And I think Maybe something for leaders to think about is, like, how often they ask for help. I think if we rewind back to The stuff you said around, like, people owning stuff and coming to them, and that makes it easier, doesn't it? Because sometimes we feel as, like, a manager or a leader, we've got to organize everyone and But actually, the reality is if people are coming to us, that's like that's so much better for us all, quite frankly.

Mustafa [00:35:50]:

Yeah. I think role role role modeling the babies that you wanna See you. Because ultimately, you know, if if you as a manager or a leader are asking questions or asking for help, holding up your hands and saying, I don't know the answer. I've made a mistake here. Showing that vulnerability. I I think that definitely then gives other people, not necessarily the permission, but it increases the likelihood of others doing that. So that role modeling bit really important as well.

Simon Ursell [00:36:11]:

Alright. I'm gonna go and do some gardening. See you guys soon. Thanks for coming on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:16]:

Over and out. Thanks, Mustafa.

Simon Ursell [00:36:19]:

Wow. That was, that was a good podcast. I think, normally, we pick out our 2 highlights, David, but, there's way too much To do just 2, say, are you okay if we do 3, Rusty?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:30]:

Yeah. I'm more than happy to do 3, and well done on you for driving up. I know you want me to say

Simon Ursell [00:36:34]:

Yeah. Well, you should say that, Rusty. I did drive up, and my and my microphones worked amazingly well. You you start, I think, and, maybe do your 3, and then I'll jump in.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:46]:

Yeah. Look. Probably one of the first things to me was just that Challenge mindsets like almost reframing how we view pressure. And one of the ways that, I guess, professional sport does this quite well. It's like practicing big moments. So we will do scenarios. We will practice stuff. Maybe a nudge to, businesses And other organizations around how are you practicing your big moments, I thought that was really relevant.

Simon Ursell [00:37:11]:

Yeah. We don't. I'm in business. We don't really practice big moments that much, certainly not the way sport does. See. Yeah. Something to take away, for sure.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:18]:

Nice one. What's your number 1?

Simon Ursell [00:37:21]:

Well, I I just I mean, I like the fact that he said It's pretty much saying resilience has become fairly meaningless, isn't it? And it doesn't actually it doesn't mean so much like it used to. I think people have Started to use it for all sorts of different things, you know, in some ways become really quite unhelpful. Pretty shocking. Some of the stuff that's happened in some sports around using resilience as a as a way to make some pretty nasty The place is to to to practice your sport. So, yeah, I I think you gotta reframe it and take what you think resilience means and make sure it's really well find before you start talking about it in your organization. So, yeah, I thought that was pretty

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:59]:

important. Yeah. Someone who works in sport, the white review, and I didn't actually know that was the definition, the ability to suffer.

Simon Ursell [00:38:06]:

That's terrifying. Yeah. That was terrifying. Yeah. So it I think it's really important that you you actually make sure you understand what you what you mean and your organization means By resilience. So yeah. What what was your next

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:17]:

one? Yeah. Yeah. I just think the 2 by 2 is a helpful one, isn't it? And they might not be, you know, you might You might have slightly different axes, but just understanding, like, where does, challenge and where does support sit in your organization? How are people experiencing it? I'm still waiting on my staff to come back to me with the zed axis on that as well. But, yeah, I think it's a really at all. Just to almost, like, ask people just to, you know, share with you where they feel like they are at the moment.

Simon Ursell [00:38:45]:

And I

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:46]:

I've worked with an organization recently where where someone's just said, I said I need more challenge. Yeah. Like, the support's great, but I need more challenge.

Simon Ursell [00:38:53]:

Yeah. Well, you do. I mean, sometimes you really did, ain't you? Yeah. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:57]:

What about you? Number 2, what have

Simon Ursell [00:38:58]:

you got? I I really like the idea of bounce back ability, resilience being the ability to recharge, not the ability to endure. Say, I really enjoyed that because I think most people think it's the ability to endure. But, actually, if you are able to stop, recharge, then, you know, you're you're gonna be a way more resilient person. So have being able to stop, not thinking that it's, You know, playing on with with an injury or something like that, that's not resilience. That's just stupidity. I I thought that's, I thought that was great. And then in in the business world, I think that happens a lot. People, there's almost like, are gonna work longer because I'm resilient.

Simon Ursell [00:39:34]:

Well, you're not gonna be resilient for long if you do that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:37]:

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes people think it's a badge of honor, don't they? And I guess the 4 day week's probably a good nudge towards people giving that opportunity to recover. And

Simon Ursell [00:39:45]:

Yeah. Building in different working patterns into your day so you're the most effective If you can be, I mean, yeah, I'm definitely gonna be chucking this around when people ask me about 4 day week because it's it's absolutely gold for that, And it's nice. It's coming from a very different angle. So, yeah, that was that was really cool. Enjoyed that. What about you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:03]:

Yeah. My third1 is a shout out. We're gonna go I joined the the pod soon, which I'm obviously pretty excited about, and I'll I'm sure I'll get the quote wrong. But along the lines of, You know, just because a flower isn't is broken, you don't fix the flower. You fix the environment in which it grows. So probably thinking about the soil in which, people are existing, your environment, what is it that you need to, help, or adjust or play around with in order to get the best out of people. So I I love that quote. I think it's a real great nudge towards leaders where They can often go, oh, this person this or this person that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:41]:

Actually, maybe look at the environment first and think. I'll delve into that, and maybe that's a great start point for us on that

Simon Ursell [00:40:47]:

point. Yeah. That's a cool quote. It really is. It's by the way, it's when a flower doesn't bloom, you fix the environment, not the flower. Just Get its words right.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:56]:

Yeah. I appreciate you acting like a team.

Simon Ursell [00:40:58]:

Yeah. Well, okay. I'm just making sure that the environment is right. I'm not trying to fix the flower.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:03]:

What's your last step?

Simon Ursell [00:41:05]:

Performance and well-being aren't separate. Say, you know, I think some people think, well, if I'm if we're practicing well-being, that means performance to suffer or if we're In order for performance to to really work, we've got to you know, our well-being has to suffer. The reality is You've got to get both of those working well in order to be really, really capable and good. Say, yeah. Really love that. Yeah. Don't sacrifice your well-being. If you think that's gonna help your performance, you're dead

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:34]:

wrong. Just watched Stuart Broad Announced his retirement, and he spoke about the change room he's in, been the most fun change room he's been in, and those lines are definitely performing in the ashes at the moment.

Simon Ursell [00:41:45]:

Yeah. Yeah. They they sure are. I mean, that is that is a great example, isn't it? It's I mean, they're not that focused on the result. They're just Going after their environment, making it the best it can be, and that's gonna lead to success long term, isn't it?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:59]:

Yeah. Brilliantly. I know. So and and and with resilience in mind, If you could sort out the microphones for the next podcast, that would be really helpful.

Simon Ursell [00:42:07]:

Okay. Well, I think I'm gonna train you up because you're clearly more resilient than I am. I'm struggling with it, if I'm honest, but there we go. Yeah. Anyway, I hope you enjoyed the pod, and, listen to the next one be out seen. Cheers.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:22]:

Thanks so much for joining us on the Bands Back Movie podcast with Simon Russell. We really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can I reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:42:32]:

LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursel, u r s for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:38]:

you? TikTok? No. Not really. LinkedIn, Ross Lanshaw, and then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts.

Simon Ursell [00:42:46]:

Yeah. Second that. Over