The Power of Storytelling: Connecting, Healing, and Transforming Lives with Clare Murphy | Episode 8

Today on the Bouncebackability Podcast, we speak to the international speaker and storyteller, Clare Murphy. Clare has an impressive CV. Not only is she the Director of Story at the Mission Critical Institute in the USA, she’s also a consultant and trainer for worldwide organisation, such as the National Theatre, The Royal Shakespeare Company, BLESMA Limbless Veterans, and University of Bristol. Clare has performed in over 20 countries with the former president of Ireland, Mary Robinson and NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory among the notable guests in her audience.

In this episode, she shares her experience of storytelling as a medium that extends beyond the personal experience. Clare explains the crucial role it plays in creating connection and fostering a sense of belonging in teams and organisations. From the legacy built by coaches like Alex Ferguson to the profound physiological and neurological impacts on doctors and nurses, storytelling reinforces culture, builds connections, and provides the much-needed space for reflection and processing.

Join us for this thought-provoking episode, sharing unique perspectives on the power of stories to bring positive change. 

In this episode:

09:57 Storytelling and culture in organisations – how we can share the legacy in a meaningful way through storytelling.

18:50 The Rishi Network – established by Dr. Rachel Reman to combat isolation and depression in medical professionals and the importance of addressing the emotional impact of extreme situations.

20:17 The DRIVE project - storytelling to train veterans with various injuries, including limb loss to share their life before and after the incident. 

23:28 The impact and importance of personal experiences over measuring output efficiency - has social media created a disconnect?

28:57 Storytelling as transformation - helping people overcome trauma, heal from past experiences and even alleviate pain through sharing their story.

45:09 Digital excess - how information overload is affecting our emotional processing response and how stories are the antidote.

57:55 Storytelling as an emotional gym – the impact of telling stories as a collaborative experience can build resilience.

You can connect with Clare here:

www.claremurphy.org 

Instagram: Clare Murphy (@storyclare)

LinkedIn: Clare Murphy | LinkedIn

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:

Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:

Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell [00:00:09]:

Looking forward to it. Listen on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:12]:

Well, welcome, everyone. We're super pleased to have you on with the pod again. This is a really exciting one for me. Clare Murphy lives in Bristol, goes for walks down by the harborside with me regularly. Last night, she hosted a blind dog salon, which It is as, eclectic as it sounds with people from all over the world, from NASA, from just incredible organizations, got presented to you by volcanologists. It's a very unpredictable evening, which is always the case with storytelling. Simon, I've heard you love storytelling. It's one of your favorite things.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:46]:

You can't get enough of it.

Simon Ursell [00:00:48]:

I do love storytelling. I'm very curious. I I mean, I didn't really not sure what to expect here because, you know, storytelling, how's that Affecting resilience. You know? It's telling stories, isn't it? I love a story. But, yeah, I'm not sure how this all, hangs together. She sounds amazing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:04]:

Well, if you were to take, like, a guess at how it hangs together, like, how do what would your guess be?

Simon Ursell [00:01:09]:

Oh, that's a good question. I've no idea. I mean, stories I mean, I guess telling stories is good. You know? Well, I

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:16]:

love the way I love the way you've just arranged the word the other way around. So turn storytelling into telling stories like Yeah. That's Like, that's an explanation. Just repeat repeat the question back to the artist. Saying, what's a bacon sandwich? What's a sandwich With bacon in?

Simon Ursell [00:01:31]:

With bacon. Yeah. There we are.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:34]:

Yeah. No. Look. I've I mean, my experience, I'm probably the same as you, really. Like, Couple years ago when I met Claire and someone connected me with her, and I thought storytelling sounds cool. Like, you know, sounds like we would probably waste a bit of time telling a few stories, Having a bit of a crack. If I told you she was working with, like, NASA and the NHS and people like that

Simon Ursell [00:01:53]:

Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:53]:

It's a very, you know, it's very serious business we're talking about Hey, Simon. So I need you to be very serious on this pod and not, like, be as flippant as you have in in the last 20 seconds about storytelling.

Simon Ursell [00:02:04]:

I'll I'll do my best. I'll do my best. But I am genuinely excited to meet her because it does sound amazing. But, yeah, I don't know what to expect. Yeah. Let's get her on. Let's find out.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:14]:

Let's do it. Welcome to the Bounce Back Ability podcast. I'm sat here with Simon Nelson, who is still basking in the glory of Clem Murphy, asking him, did we play rugby together?

Simon Ursell [00:02:26]:

Yeah. It was pretty cool. Quite excited about that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:28]:

And Glenn Murphy, who it appears as an expert performer, is able to move microphones to help mine be closer to my mouth. So I appreciate both of you.

Simon Ursell [00:02:37]:

Well, yeah. You need trading on microphones. I have been told off about your poor microphone technique, Rusty. So, yeah, I'm really pleased Clare's here to help back me up.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:47]:

Awesome. Look. I'm really excited about today. Clare Murphy, who I've was looking up to Me in lockdown, been for a few walks around the harbor and beyond. I got one coming up on Saturday, so really excited about that. Storyteller, person that makes me wonder if my fingers are my own fingers at times, taking me to new depths, new levels. God. No.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:10]:

Put in your

Simon Ursell [00:03:11]:

my fingers are your own fingers.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:12]:

Well, just I think maybe there's, like, this part of the world that I'm not accessing or that I'm not really on that level of the game yet. Yeah. And there's some stuff around Energy and connection and, and and being human that, that she's discovered that I haven't discovered yet. So, Hopefully, we'll delve into that today.

Simon Ursell [00:03:30]:

Hey, Claire.

Clare Murphy [00:03:31]:

Good morning. Good morning. How are you?

Simon Ursell [00:03:33]:

Yeah. Yeah. Really good. Really good. So do you wanna tell us a little bit about your story, Where you started finding out about storytelling?

Clare Murphy [00:03:40]:

I was in the west of Ireland, and I was just finishing up in college when I was Pulled into the world of story. So I had no plan to become a storyteller, happened completely by accident. And somebody read my writing and said, you should. You have a great narrative voice in your writing. You should think about storytelling. And that led me down a long and winding road where I ended up becoming A storyteller as an actual job.

Simon Ursell [00:04:06]:

Wow. That sounds like a cool job.

Clare Murphy [00:04:08]:

I have to say it's pretty good. I get to walk around the harbor with Rusty as part of my job. So yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:04:13]:

I think Well, okay. There are some downsides to storytelling there, I don't know. It's that's That that is a lovely thing, walking around the ark with Rusty. You, say, for our listeners, storytelling. What's that all about? What do you what is it that a storyteller does?

Clare Murphy [00:04:28]:

So I travel the world, and I stand in front of groups of people, be they young or middle aged, teenagers or elders, And I tell stories. No script, no book, no stage, no setup. I simply tell. And the and the stories I tell, so every storyteller is different. Stories I tell would be myths and legends and fables and folk tales, and wisdom tells because that's what I love. I love the stories that have been processed through humans, you know, between mouth and ear Yeah. For 1000 of years, some people tell personal stories. Some people tell historical stories.

Clare Murphy [00:05:00]:

And I say I just stand in front of people because I don't always need a stage. You know, actors often need a a stage or a theater, and I can just I can tell on a beach as I have done or, in In a castle or in a cave or wherever. So it's a very flexible art form.

Simon Ursell [00:05:15]:

Sounds wonderful. It is pretty good. Yeah. How how lovely. So you I guess people may be wondering bounce back ability, storytelling, what's that all about? I've listened to a few things that you've done. And As Rusty says, I'm obsessed with environment. I am obsessed with environment. I can't help it.

Simon Ursell [00:05:34]:

It but but I I I've heard you say before that Telling stories helps people access the culture and the environment in which they're in, say, you know, be that a sports team, a business, Anywhere, any kind of work, any kind of place if people tell stories about it, that's one of the best ways to access that environment. Is that Is that a fair comment? And have you got any examples of that?

Clare Murphy [00:05:59]:

Yeah. And I'm happy to dive into that. But I'd love you to explain what When you say the word environment, no one can see this, but you light up. Like, your whole face lights up.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:08]:

Does it?

Clare Murphy [00:06:08]:

Your eyes light up. So because I know you you've worked in many worlds. So what what do you mean when you say the environment?

Simon Ursell [00:06:15]:

It's the the place you inhabit. Where where you are, where you live, where you work, What does that look like? I wonder why my face lit up. But we I'm I'm in I mean, I'm tired of cranes. I love working there. Got a lovely home, Lovely wife, family. I mean, I've I've worked in some pretty awful environments as well, so been in some pretty awful environments. So it's it's kinda Nice to be in an environment at the moment that I really enjoy, so I guess that's probably why.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:41]:

His face isn't lighting up Since you asked him a question. So so I appreciate that. I think it's and and again, it's a great risk. It it actually on the call last night. So, like, can people see your language is an important thing to consider. And then it was it was fascinating. We had a volcanologist, obviously, speaking about volcanoes. And a couple of people, like, just asked why did your eyes light up so much? What made that happen? So I guess, You

Clare Murphy [00:07:10]:

might you might have to tell people on this podcast what you're referring to if they were in there.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:14]:

Yes. So you do you run a a blind dog salon. It's a relatively regular event. Used to be in person. Now online, where we just get people together from different worlds, different environments, and share stories. And I guess what I was taken by them was just it made me think a lot about, like, it's not just our words, is it? The storytelling Isn't just words. It's actually and we're gonna go down so many rabbit holes, and we need to come back to Simon's question. Otherwise, he will kill me.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:44]:

I thought

Simon Ursell [00:07:44]:

I won't, Kevy. This But

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:45]:

but but actually recent events in the world, and I know you referenced it last night, but, you know, you think about COVID, think about the fact that we're here in person. This will be very different online, this meeting.

Clare Murphy [00:07:54]:

Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:56]:

Some of that art might be, like, compromised by some of our current ways of working. So I guess let's take the example of a, you know, Simon of of of a Tyler Grant, you have a business of of a team. Like, where do you think, like how do you see storytelling, like, helping people? I guess, Yes. Especially during more challenging times.

Clare Murphy [00:08:20]:

When I got started as a storyteller, I didn't think about how story could help people or how story affected environment In any way, I I simply wanted to get into that space that exists between me and someone else when I started to tell a story, and their face would change, And it would fall into this. The eyes would get wide, and the jaw would drop open. And people would come up afterwards and say, I haven't felt like that since I was 5. Obviously, 5 year olds just Go there really easily because, you know, being in a state of wonder is really addictive and easy for children to get to and harder for adults to get to. And so when I got started, I wasn't in any way thinking what can story do. I started to discover. So I think of myself as apprentice To story stories. I'm on my 18th year as an apprentice to story, and I'm always learning every year how much, How powerful it is.

Clare Murphy [00:09:10]:

But to go to the environment question, I'm just fascinated by it because when you said you've been in some really rough environments, And that makes you really appreciate the ones that you're in. And in sport and beyond sport, we're always trying to get the best out of people. Right? We're trying to maximize potential, and we're trying to, You know, improve productivity as if we're all objects in this large machine, which is, you know, lends to the kind of capitalist frame on things. But what I've seen from all the conversations I've had with you, Rusty, and with other people in sport is that the environment matters So much more than the outcome. Obviously, the outcome's really important because the money that goes in to support the team and all of this. But if you don't have a culture that supports connection and belonging, then people aren't going to stay. And there's huge turnover with sports coaches specifically because they're always moving on there. You know, it's just the nature of the work.

Clare Murphy [00:09:57]:

It's always moving on. So culture is something that's carried by the people who are in it. So if nobody's carrying the culture, how does it survive? You can't just transplant a coach or a person, a leader in, and then suddenly there's a culture. So where is culture coming from? You know, ground up or top down. A lot of people think it's top down. And how do you nurture a culture that will support connection and belonging? So there's this wonderful woman in In America, Sue Phillips, who runs the Sacred Design Lab, and she always comes back to the 2 things that humans need on any team, in any culture, in any tribe, as culture, is connection and belonging. So story is one of these really easy ways in to creating a feeling of connection and belonging, whether that's We're gonna tell the origin story of how we came to be. We see origin stories with superhero movies all the time.

Clare Murphy [00:10:45]:

Or whether we're going to tell the wins of our team from the last year, even if we've had a terrible year, or are we going to remind ourselves of some of the people that didn't win, but, You know, carry the culture of the team through difficult times. So we're, you know, we're in the middle of something with the government is Working with the NHS and asking them to share their story, you know, as a way of coping with what's going on With the fallout from medical, what medical's going through right now is a direct result of everything they went through in the last 4 years. So story, it it's really subversive because when we think about storytelling, I think by somebody, you know, older, maybe gray beard or gray haired, with a at least in Ireland with a shawl

Simon Ursell [00:11:29]:

or with a pod. Greyiest.

Clare Murphy [00:11:30]:

Greyest. Sitting and telling a story and everyone gathering around. And either either being a form of entertainment or something we do down the pub. But what we're talking about here and what you were asking about, Simon, is this idea of how you use story to nourish and nurture culture and create legacy. So it's not let me sit down and tell you long, long ago, at Gloucester Rugby, there you know what I mean? It's not that. It's using the stories of the environment that you're in, Both the good and the bad, the fails and the successes, to continue to reaffirm connection and belonging so that people wanna stay and people are loyal To the story that they read.

Simon Ursell [00:12:09]:

Oh, that's so true. I mean, I was I was just thinking when you were talking about sports teams and how transitional it is, I was trying to think of who the great coaches are, Alex Ferguson, those kinds of people. They they tend to have stayed where they are For a pretty long time, don't they? And they also tend to have developed a really distinct culture story around that team that has a lasting legacy. I mean, right now, Manchester United are struggling, aren't they? And there's a lot of harking back to that story. Whereas, I'm not sure many people have learned that lesson, have they that really you you probably need to stay with. Because I think I Pick pick on right in saying, didn't Alex Ferguson have a terrible time when he started? Really didn't perform all that well, but they stuck with him and allowed him to develop his story, I guess.

Clare Murphy [00:13:02]:

I mean, I don't know his personal story, but I know that culture takes time. And you you can't always control the turnover, but there Is there someone else within your environment, within your organization that is carrying your culture? And if so, are they being given enough Time to tell that story.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:18]:

Yeah. Made me think about 2 things. 1 is the government, so, that's not a good thing.

Simon Ursell [00:13:25]:

Yes. Don't worry about me. I'm impressed. It just made you angry.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:27]:

I I actually was, thinking a bit about, like, what's going on. So when, for example, the the Doctors, the nurses that you're doing work with are sharing stories like, what do you think is going on, like, physiologically, neurologically for them That means that it's it's having this this impact either from a dealing with the stuff that they've encountered point of view or Building further connection. Like, I know you spoke last night about, like, the dopamine hits of the, volcano hands as I'm now calling them. Yeah. What's going on for a while?

Simon Ursell [00:14:03]:

To expand on that. You can't just chuck that out there and then leave it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:07]:

Well, if I if I give a quick yeah. Just quickly, really. Like, I know you use your hands a lot on the Zoom, and you'd be quite demonstrative and and just and and and ask people to do that because it just gives other people feedback. So, actually, they're able to notice the impact of the stuff that they're sharing on people, which gives us the dopamine hit that we might Experience when we're person to person, we might see some of those micro gestures. That's my summary.

Clare Murphy [00:14:32]:

So what you're referring to is when I when I talked last night at the salon about Up in your VC game, Video Comms VC. What I noticed during lockdown, and this is not neuroscientifically detested, so I'd love some neuroscientists to weigh in on this, is that 1st week of lockdown, I decided to help all my friends who have kids, and I would tell stories online. I'd never really told stories online. I'm a big physical performer. Right? So I get ready. I line up the Zoom, And I proceeded to have the worst one of the worst hours of my life as I tried to tell stories to a computer, And everything I knew how to do wasn't working. I didn't understand anything about the frame, about where to look, about how to look at them, and How to help them feel like I was looking at them, but I was still seeing their faces, all of this kind of stuff. So I stopped performing after online.

Clare Murphy [00:15:26]:

And I and I spent about 3 to 6 months watching what was happening online. And what I realized is when we're just a talking head, We all see the rest of the body. We don't hear the voice because of the Zoom silence. We don't see hands because people keep their hands below the frame. We just Just see the face, and the face is passive because the face of the person is almost in the state we're in when we're watching TV. So you get no facial expression, no breath, no micro gesture. Can't see if the person is wearing pants or shoes. You don't know if they're excited because they're not showing any expression because everybody's resting face is Pretty miserable or terrifying or angry.

Clare Murphy [00:16:00]:

So the person speaking isn't getting the feedback loop, the human communication feedback loop, which is a lot of other things aside from words. And when we're not getting the feedback loop, it creates this inner abyss where we think to ourselves, this isn't making sense to anyone. I'm not making sense to anyone. The inner critic Gets ramped up, and we fill the space between us that is now silent because of Zoom with the criticism. The drop in confidence from people all over the world in all kinds of roles because of Zoom, and I don't mean Zoom is in the company, but because of online communication, Was massive. So the way in which we communicate and have communicate as humans for hundreds of like so long, was gone, and nobody was addressing that. So that's something I always layer into my online talks, is using your hands And using your face. And it's also something I do when I'm training people because a lot of people have been told, don't use your hands.

Clare Murphy [00:16:54]:

If you're using your hands, they're moving too much and therefore. So you get all these people with their hands jammed into their pockets trying to give a talk or give a presentation, and they're not allowed to use their bodies or their faces, which creates this really Alien way of communicating. So that's in response to what you're talking about with volcano hands, which are are Vulcanologists, Ailsa Nesmith, who did this wonderful job. Because she asked me, could she use, a slideshow, and I said no. Because, you know, that's what the salon is about. It's about talking. So she used her body to communicate what a volcano does. And it was beautiful, and it created a lot of laughter.

Clare Murphy [00:17:29]:

So that was your 1st question. What was your 2nd question?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:31]:

Second question was, like, what's going on for people? The nurses, the doctors, when they're sharing stories.

Clare Murphy [00:17:35]:

Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:36]:

Not just the person sharing the story, but I guess Listening. The the people who are listening.

Clare Murphy [00:17:40]:

It's not just doctors and nurses. I've worked with all kinds of people, including the limbless veterans From plasma, the British Limbless Act Service Men and Women's Association, and the mission critical teams. So we're talking about a couple of different things. One is The ability story has for meaning making. So we have a lot of people who work in extreme environments, and they're never I was gonna say aloud, that's not really right. There's not really an opportunity for them to talk about their experiences. If you're a surgeon or a paramedic and you come home, you often don't bring your work home with you. You don't get chance to talk about it at work because work is very, very busy and high crisis.

Clare Murphy [00:18:15]:

So you don't get to process all of these extreme experiences. So that's the first thing. And the second thing is when you share a story, be it a story of extreme experience or something else, and you get listened to and witnessed, Then your experience gets recognized, and you recognize yourself and other people. So you get this massive amount of connection poll. What happens with a lot of people who don't end up telling their stories is that they think they're the only ones. They think they're the only ones who failed. They think they're the only ones who faced this kind of self doubt. They're left alone with their own thoughts, and story creates this communal space where you get recognized.

Clare Murphy [00:18:50]:

And then someone else says, that happened to me. And this decreases isolation, decreases depression, all of this. There's an amazing woman called doctor Rachel Reman who set up the Rishi Network Because she realized doctors and nurses and everyone in medical needs to talk, as does everyone in every sector. And she created finding meaning in medicine groups, Which is the most incredible thing where they're anonymous. So you go in, you're allowed to talk about whatever has happened, and it doesn't get shared outside of that room. And it's a release valve. Like, why do we think people can go through extreme experiences and get on with it? We have this archetypal image of our soldiers and our doctors and our, you know, air force pilots and our paramedics that they can just go see extreme situations and then come home and have dinner, and there's no effect. But there is a massive effect.

Clare Murphy [00:19:40]:

We've got high suicide rates amongst our doctors. In Hong Kong after SARS 12 months after There was a massive hike in suicide rates amongst doctors and physicians and surgeons because they're processing the level of trauma of being through a pandemic. But because we see them as our healers or we see soldiers as our fighters or or or, right, apply your archetype, we don't see them as human. We don't see them with the same needs as us. The act of telling a story releases the valve. So there's a I'll tell you 1 story, and then I'll stop talking. But I was working with

Rusty Earnshaw [00:20:11]:

I don't want you to stop talking, by the way.

Simon Ursell [00:20:13]:

Please keep talking.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:20:14]:

Miles better than time we're speaking well.

Simon Ursell [00:20:16]:

Ditto,

Clare Murphy [00:20:17]:

Rusty. So I work at the DRIVE project, and We use storytelling, with the limitless veterans and all kinds of people. We train the limitless veterans, so that's men and women who've been to they've been in the army, navy, or special force, wherever. And they've lost a limb sometimes in the line of fire and sometimes simply walking down the street and being hit by a car. And we work with them over 5 days To tell their story. So that's life before the incident, the incident of losing their legs, or whatever's happened to them, and then life since. Worked with all kinds of people, All kinds of injuries. There was this 1 guy who came in super quiet.

Clare Murphy [00:20:51]:

He'd lost both his legs above the knee, I believe. So 2 prosthetic legs. I'd lost it in an IED and in Afghanistan. Super tall guy by 6 4, I'd say. But you know one of those tall people who you can't tell how tall they are because they hunch? Telling to make themselves smaller. And this quiet voice, Really quiet. We could barely like, we had to lean in when he was telling his story. I went to pull his story out of him.

Clare Murphy [00:21:17]:

So we finished the 5 day training, which is It's always a transformational experience for all of us. And then he goes out into the schools. The idea is that they tell their stories in secondary schools. So it's called Making Generation R, and the R stands for resilience. Right? And so the idea being that you can't tell a kid to be more resilient. It's like they do this in the NHS. They tell doctors, be more resilient. It's really effective, isn't it? What you do is you can't make someone be more resilient or be more Courageous or take more risks by telling them to do it.

Clare Murphy [00:21:45]:

What you can do is tell them a story in which that thing has happened to you and what have you done, and then you transmit because storytelling is an act of transmission. You transmit that resilience out. So all these men and women would walk in or roll into these classrooms to tell these stories, including this guy. He comes back to do refresher training a year later. He strides into the room, all 6 or 4 of them. He starts talking to everyone, shaking their hands. How are Adrian introducing himself, big voice, and we almost didn't recognize him. We sit down.

Clare Murphy [00:22:18]:

We do the 2 day refresher Training goes through any of the things. You know? People maybe not using their hands enough or not using their voice properly or whatever. You know? We're, like, coaching them. And we get to the end, and we ask him what his takeaway is. And he says, every time I tell my story, I release something from inside of me that's been killing me.

Simon Ursell [00:22:36]:

Wow. That's, that's pretty that's a pretty big statement, isn't it?

Clare Murphy [00:22:42]:

I had to write it down because I was so By the way, so I think when it comes to doctors and nurses, I think when it comes to everybody, all of our frontline workers have this Build up of residue, what we call residue at Mission Critical Team Institute. Doctor Preston Klein wrote a lovely paper on it. These things accumulate, We have to do something about them. Otherwise, our people, our people, our frontline workers are gonna get sick. And that sickness might be depression. It might be their marriage breaks down. It might be whatever, and often ends up with suicidal ideation. Right? So this is really serious stuff.

Clare Murphy [00:23:16]:

And weirdly, something as simple as storytelling could be an incredibly effective tool To helping people through that time.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:28]:

I imagine he came back in the room, and he was 6 foot 5, by the way, not 6 foot 4. I think, again, isn't that a great, like, way of seeing the impact? Because I think you said earlier, like, people's faces would change. I think, again, just that, we we we're like trapped in this world, aren't we, of measuring some stuff that's like, I'm enjoying your your your vociferous nonce, of measuring stuff Often around, like, output efficiency, that type of stuff, versus actually someone's face changed. Every day they walked in, they were an inch taller. I I love the idea of, like, just trying to create that happen to me moments. So how many moments can we create like that? Because, actually, interestingly, and I'm just thinking aloud. Social media often creates lots of moments of, that didn't happen to me. You're a bit weird that that happened to you.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:18]:

We could get into the whole debate around what normal is at this point. So, gee, I guess I'm just starting to become more fascinated by that stuff, and then, I'm I'm gonna be quite, like, provocative now. When you're doing your work, and this is an interesting one for me because people always got impact. You know, how do you measure it? How do you measure it? Like, how do you know that you are helping people become more connected, belong more, More resilient. I love generation r, by the way, as well. I've written several notes. I mean, you're gonna have to listen to it 12 times.

Simon Ursell [00:24:52]:

No. Not a problem, Raskin.

Clare Murphy [00:24:54]:

So something the the quantifiable outcome, the measurable outcome is

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:59]:

So and just to Add on to that. I'll often say to people, I actually think stories are data, so they don't have that. I think their assumption is stories are not data.

Clare Murphy [00:25:07]:

Yeah. Yeah. And there's no time to tell stories because we're too busy trying to down we're trying to get this data into our player's head, or we're trying to get this information across. But the whole point is stories have been keeping company with humans all this time because they're a mechanism. They're a vehicle for for carrying culture, information, data, and behavior change. Right. So when you think about the stories that have lasted 5000 years or 10000 years or, you know, With indigenous Australians, 6000 years, then you see that the story is worth telling because of the information that it carries, The data that it carries, how do I how do I measure my impact? I honored to to witness transformational change on a regular basis. 1st time it happened, I didn't know what was going on.

Clare Murphy [00:25:53]:

I was looking at my audience, and I was really confused because they all had this very strange look on their face, Which was what I described earlier. The wide eyes and the open jaw. The jaw goes really slack, and they they forget where they are, and they lean forward or they lean back, and the body's in a total day of relaxation. There's this transformational change that happens when you listen to stories and people undergo an inner journey. But then there's the transformational change that happens when you tell stories and And when you go to a workshop of of either like, say, sports coaches are working on stories of their own experience, this happened to me. I'll give you an example. I'm in California. I'm at a festival.

Clare Murphy [00:26:28]:

Festivals are great. They're great crack because you you're just going to tell and tell and tell and tell, and it's wonderful. And sometimes I say, Clare, we do a workshop, and it's gonna be a beginners workshop for people. It's kind of an intro to storytelling. You might get it for a couple hours. So I'm in the side room. I've got about 20 people in the room. Probably 5 of them have told stories before.

Clare Murphy [00:26:46]:

None of them are gonna be professional storytellers, so it's it's a gentle enough workshop. But I move people around. Right? I switch up the groups all the time. I switch up the pairs to try and keep the energy up as they do these different exercises. And this woman says, do you mind not Spreading up me and my husband, and we just wanna stay together for the workshop. I was like, yeah. Yeah. It's fine.

Clare Murphy [00:27:03]:

Fine. So we go through the workshop and, you know, like a classic We've talked about this in our walks, but a classic thing I do would be I I I give them a story, and then they they might retell it or they might retell a different version or a shorter version, all this kind of stuff. It's great Dexterity for the brain to to play with story. Right? Does all this training without people thinking that they're getting trained. We do that. We do that for 2 hours. Story exercises, questions, discussions, all of this. We get to the end, and everyone thanks me and leaves except for this woman who's waiting around.

Clare Murphy [00:27:33]:

And you know what it looks like? So I I make some space. She comes up, and she grabs my hand, presses it really hard, and says thank you. No. That's fine. You know, people get exuberant with story. And I said, oh, yeah. Yeah. Absolutely.

Clare Murphy [00:27:45]:

And she's like, no. I really I really wanna thank you. And I was like, well, this is one of those situations where it's, you know, it's too much. You know? And then I realized she was she was quite She's getting quite upset, and I was like, well, it's just a it's just a storytelling workshop. Said, no. You don't understand. Did you notice my husband? And I said, yeah. She said he has Alzheimer's, and I couldn't quite make sense of that.

Clare Murphy [00:28:10]:

She said he his Alzheimer's has really advanced, And we haven't had a normal conversation in a year. And I thought back to what I just witnessed, which was he had told stories. He had asked questions. He had participated in the discussion. She said it was like I got my husband back, and then she started crying. And I start crying because I I didn't even I didn't even know what to make of that. So That is the kind of thing that happens all the time with storytelling. It is this incredible, You know, superpower is is it almost a diminutive word for what it can do, but it it has it has the Howard, to help someone with Alzheimer's participate.

Clare Murphy [00:28:57]:

I've seen a selective mute, a kid who hasn't spoken in 4 years because of trauma, begin to speak because of story. I have seen people who never participate, participate. I have seen just the so that's the quantifiable data is is is watching transformational change, and it happens on a lot of levels a lot of the time. And I've heard stories from other storytellers that are on the same vein. A woman with chronic, she had a chronic illness, so she has extreme pain every day. And she went up to my friend, who's a storyteller. And, again, she waited until everyone had gone of this panel discussion. And she was very meek, you know, and her body was, you know, bent over pain.

Clare Murphy [00:29:34]:

She went up to my friend, Debbie Thomas, and and she said to her, Thank you so much. When you tell stories, my pain goes away. I don't know what to do with that, but I do know it happens all the time. So if we're not using story, then we're working a lot harder than we have to to build connection, belonging, and to to transform lives and change behavior. So it it pretty much, From what I can see in the last 18 years, you can bring story anywhere.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:03]:

I love the way you're trying to make me and Simon cry. We appreciate this. And and and now

Simon Ursell [00:30:09]:

curiosity. I'm crying

Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:10]:

for the time. And and I'm now wondering what you thought, and I told you my terrible story earlier about the guy coming up to me and and asking Oh, I was. Made me think about a couple of things. Actually, made me think, more about, like and and I know that it's, like, It is normal, but again and it happens. And and the problem is if we wanted it to be a more widespread skill Used by people and people to be bit more effective at using it. We'd probably turn it into a GCSE market, which would like

Clare Murphy [00:30:39]:

trying to do right now. But it is a wide Are they? It is a widespread skill. We everyone tells stories all the time. So there's a difference between what I do and what people do in their day to day because I'm a storyteller, so it's like being a teacher or a singer.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:49]:

I get I guess what I'm saying is, like, that ability to and I don't mean just being the storyteller. So your ability to listen and help that person make sense and find meaning in it and is, like, is the is possibly the critical part so you might share a story to help people think about something.

Clare Murphy [00:31:04]:

People have been doing that. Like, everybody knows how to make Meaning and listen to stories because we've been doing that for a 100000 years. It's just that we don't bring it into the workplace, and we don't bring Okay. I told

Simon Ursell [00:31:14]:

you that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:14]:

That makes sense. That makes

Clare Murphy [00:31:16]:

Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:31:16]:

Yeah. I mean, it I it's beautiful. Just beautiful stories. I mean, wow. I mean, pretty mind blowing stuff. So thank you for sharing that. But the the the thing I was I was while you were speaking about that, I was thinking about, wow, How how often do we actually tell stories to each other or give each other permission to tell a story? Or or even shut down someone who's telling a story because you're busy and, You know, I don't know, one of your kids, your partner, relatives are telling you a story, and you don't wanna hear it because you're, I don't know. You're busy, or or you don't wanna hear the story because it may be challenging or upsetting to you, and you don't wanna be confronted with that.

Simon Ursell [00:31:58]:

Is it I mean, storytelling is a is a participation sport, isn't it? Absolutely. It isn't the person telling the story is not Even necessarily in charge. I mean or is is in charge a word? I don't know.

Clare Murphy [00:32:11]:

That probably that feels wrong. Yeah. It's it's absolutely collaborative. Yeah. 100% collaborative. So I tell this the listener is creating the story in their mind's eye, which is, to me, the real alchemy. And then there's this space between us where all this universal currency happens. So each person that's listening is thinking, what would I do in that situation? Because storytelling activates oxytocin, which Activates empathy.

Clare Murphy [00:32:33]:

So we get the, what would I do? So it creates, you know, increases emotional literacy and problem solving and all of this. So, You know, when Einstein there's that famous story about Einstein when they said, you know, if I want my children to be intelligent, what should I do? Read them fairy tales.

Simon Ursell [00:32:46]:

Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:47]:

You want

Clare Murphy [00:32:47]:

them to be really intelligent, read them more fairy tales. The idea being that stories are an emotional gem. They're they're they're how you work things out without having to go through the situation. And so The absolutely. It's collaborative. The listener is as vital as the speaker.

Simon Ursell [00:33:06]:

Yeah. I mean, I I I completely hear that. It's it's fascinating, isn't it? Because it's almost in order for storytelling to work, the audience have gotta give you permission to tell your story, haven't they? And And if and if they don't or if they're not engaged

Clare Murphy [00:33:20]:

Yeah. Or if you force it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:21]:

Or if you force it. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:33:22]:

You're just gonna you're not gonna you you know, you're just you're just making noise, aren't you? I mean, it

Clare Murphy [00:33:27]:

Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:33:28]:

I'm I'm guessing it's provoking a few things, I mean, but I'm guessing that the, the audience Are gonna hear very different things. And because you're probably you know, one moment, you might be thinking about your shopping list, or what you're gonna do the next day because your your mind's drifted. I've been I've been hanging out doing a lot of mindfulness with a wonderful lady called Mia, and my brain drifts a heck of a lot. And I've I've started to really notice that. So, you know, a bit but people will hear it very they they won't hear bits of the story. They'll hear other bits that engage with 1 bit, not another. So everybody's experience of the story is gonna be different. Say, the participation of your of your audience has got to be Something that you work on? I mean, are you trying to get them to I mean, how do you get that engagement? Because that's gotta be quite tough at times.

Simon Ursell [00:34:16]:

I mean, I find it hard.

Clare Murphy [00:34:19]:

Yes. You do work at it, but here's the interesting thing. So because everybody meets the story where they're at, So depending on how distracted you are, how much you have going on. But story kicks in this incredible activity in the brain, which Brings a lot of different centers of the brain together because you start playing at the story. Now as the speaker, you need to choose the right story at the right time for the right situation. You start Doing Gilgamesh in the middle of a 10 minute prep before the game is about to start. Nobody's gonna wanna listen to you. Right? So you have to your work as speaker.

Clare Murphy [00:34:49]:

And for those People listening here are wondering how to use story in their work. The idea is that you should always have more than 1 story at your fingertips. So, You know, me and Rusty spent time walking and talking, and he'll tell me stories from his his life as a coach or his life as an athlete. And those stories are really, really important and useful parts of the repertoire. And then there's gonna be stories you'll have about other teams that you didn't experience, but you heard about. That story contains a useful medicine. I think of stories as containing good medicine. And, you know, you wanna share that story from, I don't know, the all blacks because there was a really Good lesson in there that you're able to learn.

Clare Murphy [00:35:23]:

So you transmit that emotional intelligence out. So there's personal stories. There's nonpersonal stories that are still stories that have happened, and then there's the other, Which is the the what I maybe you might call the untrue story. So the wisdom tells, the folk tells, the fables, these are Stories that have stood the test of time with humanity. So you gotta make sure you have a variety so that you can choose. In this situation, I'm dealing with a young athlete who's just dealt with a massive injury, and they're dealing with A massive crisis around failure and around, will I recover, and what does my life look like? What's the story that suits that situation? Choose well. Right? So the more you practice this, the better you get at choosing the right story for the right time. But the engagement that happens So I learned this as I was coming up as a storyteller.

Clare Murphy [00:36:05]:

I'd be invited into all these schools. Right? And, you know, you'd be maybe do the whole school. So you'd maybe do 1 big Assembly, you have 300 kids, or you might do class by class. But inevitably, the teachers would take me aside. This is pre COVID. And they would say, This is in Ireland, they'd say. Now we have a lot of characters in our class. Right? And that's the kid that The can't sit still.

Clare Murphy [00:36:30]:

That's the kid that, now we know has ADHD and all these things. Do you want me to remove them before we start? Uh-oh. You know? And I would look. But should the teachers just trying to help. Right? They're just trying to help. Sure. Sure. They're trying to make sure I have a good opinion.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:43]:

You have them all removed immediately.

Simon Ursell [00:36:45]:

Yeah. Take them straight out.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:46]:

Just straight them out.

Clare Murphy [00:36:48]:

And I would say, oh, they're so kind. Thank you. No. Why don't we just see what happens?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:54]:

And they'd

Clare Murphy [00:36:54]:

be like, alright. You know? Because they they have to live with this kid who's really disruptive every day. Inevitably, what happens is that kid Buys in fully because and here's the answer to your question. The brain engages at the level at which the brain can engage. So each person takes something different from it. Whether you're coming at it from an incredibly busy or traumatic day and you've got, like, 30 seconds to engage with this, whether you, you know, you've got ADHD and your brain is going super fast. You you meet story meets your brain wherever you're at, and That to me is one of those incredible things. So then from that, realize, although you're telling a story about, say, you You know, when you got out of a really difficult situation in your life and you decided to start your company because you wanted to work in an environment that was really much more positive and changing the world for the better, You're telling that story, and that to you is about making a decision.

Clare Murphy [00:37:48]:

Someone else for them, it might be about courage or it might be about community. Everybody hears The lesson they wanna take out of it. So stories contain these multiple morals. So when you look at Aesop's fables, there's the easiest way to explain this. A$AP was a slave who did phenomenal work composing oral stories. He never wrote them down as a way of sowing seeds of Revolution and rebellion at a time when they were when people were being oppressed. Those stories went from mouth to ear and mouth to ear, and And it's all about, you know, the the the meek can, you know, overpower the strong, the mouse, and the lion, and things like that. He never had a moral at the end of story because it was up to the listener to determine the lesson of the story.

Clare Murphy [00:38:28]:

So, you know, going back to what you said a few minutes ago, our story is collaborative. They're incredibly collaborative, And the storyteller story dictates what they want you to take away can often deprive the audience of the multitude of lessons that exist in all human experience.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:43]:

Because if they do the storytelling GCSE, they would start off with lesson objectives.

Clare Murphy [00:38:47]:

Yeah. And then they would strip that away, wouldn't they? They'd strip away

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:50]:

Just strip it away.

Clare Murphy [00:38:51]:

Yeah. The kind of magic that happens, and magic's a like, it's a very controversial word, but there's a there's an alchemy that happens in this, A collaborative process between speaker, listener, and story. This is a, you know, a triangular relationship. And, yes, if we try if we try to make it into this into this GCSE thing, we will probably deprive it of It's amazing capacity. And we'll also turn it into a writing a writing form, and I am talking about oral storytelling. Our orality is way older than our literacy.

Simon Ursell [00:39:23]:

I've gotta say, as soon as you started talking about a GCSE and storytelling, I felt quite uncomfortable.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:28]:

Yeah. I was deliberately trying to be uncomfortable about it because they they just make it terrible.

Simon Ursell [00:39:33]:

I mean, you're gonna have somebody getting a 9 in storytelling and someone getting a 1 in storytelling, aren't you? And it's like, well, that doesn't make any sense. I mean, but they will get assessed and a and a politician will say, why aren't we doing better at storytelling?

Clare Murphy [00:39:45]:

And Well, they're already talking about it. Kirsten, we're talking about Oracy. And it's important we talk But Oracy, we bring we bring Oracy back in, orality and Oracy because that's our don't

Simon Ursell [00:39:52]:

measure it.

Clare Murphy [00:39:53]:

Inheritance, but, yeah, don't don't put it on there.

Simon Ursell [00:39:55]:

Measure it.

Clare Murphy [00:39:56]:

Don't put on the Ofsted list of things to quantify.

Simon Ursell [00:39:58]:

Be another thing we'll have to unpick when they start working at Dolly Grange. Yeah. Because, I mean, I I'm I'm really a giant this. It's absolutely fascinating. I think I'd like to try and bring in bounce back ability. Yep. Because I think, you know, everything Because it's the name

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:15]:

of the podcast. It's the time it's getting a bit Just just just just quickly before that, but together

Simon Ursell [00:40:21]:

woven into all of it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:22]:

I guess Yeah. I yeah. I guess we are just all like, And and especially, I think about my like, we're not like collectors of stories, aren't we, essentially? And then the the how and the why you share the stories is probably the crucial part And the bit why the reason you look at people's, like, faces and their body language is to see their engagement. You know? It it appears something just crossed your mind and that, you know, like, to see how people are relating to that story, and then and then it's it's how it connects up with them. It's not about like

Simon Ursell [00:40:52]:

But isn't that isn't I mean, I I've

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:54]:

taken him off I've taken him on a tangent again. I'm so pleased. No.

Simon Ursell [00:40:57]:

It's cool. No. I'm bringing it back again. Isn't it isn't it The point is to tell a story, not, necessarily think about how that's gonna land. Sure. If you're in a leadership world or you're trying to build something, then, yeah, you probably do need to think about what you're gonna say in that moment. But, at the moment, no one's telling stories.

Clare Murphy [00:41:18]:

Well, people are. People are. There's a multitude of things there. People are telling stories. So the point is, yes, get better at telling. But if If you're in a leadership position, if you're on a mission critical team, if you're in a in a role on a sports team, you absolutely have to think about why you're telling the stories you're telling. And, also, people are unconsciously telling a lot of stories. They're unconsciously telling stories about we've gotta get this win or we're putting pressure in a certain way and all of this.

Clare Murphy [00:41:40]:

So If you wanna use story in your work, you sometimes have to be more targeted and think about what are the stories that are gonna best serve This job. So one of the things we talk about mission critical team institute is the tacit knowledge transfer problem. Right? So like a firefighter that has 20 years experience, And they're about to retire. What are the stories they need to be telling to pass on that knowledge? So, yes, just the act of telling a story is important because We often don't. Although when you look at social media, it's nothing but people shouting about their story. But then there's the if you wanna be a good leader, if you wanna Look at the survivability of your teams, and you wanna look at making stronger teams in the future, building better human culture. What are the stories you would like to see survive? Are they stories of heightened individual celebrity and how many millions somebody made? Because we're telling a lot of stories of that right now. Or do we wanna tell stories about, you know, Extraordinary acts of community.

Clare Murphy [00:42:39]:

Where where are we putting the where are we putting the microphone?

Simon Ursell [00:42:42]:

Absolutely. And, I mean, I I was I was, in parliament yesterday at an all party parliamentary group talking about modern slavery, which blew my mind because I didn't know anything about modern slavery. I I knew it existed in, you know, enough of a sort of layman's knowledge. There's a few people there speaking about it who are really involved in trying to do something about it. I mean, telling stories about people who are enslaved. There are more slaves now than there have ever been in history, And that blew my mind. And what are we doing about that? And I think the power of that story means it's hidden, isn't it? Let's not talk about it. Let's not tell any stories about it because it's really uncomfortable, and people don't wanna hear it.

Simon Ursell [00:43:23]:

And the people who are perpetrating that definitely don't wanna be telling the story about that. But The more we tell stories about stuff like that, the more we can create an environment and a culture which is where that's unacceptable because there's a light shone on it. So I guess those stories were, a, a shining a light on a on a situation that I think most of us Didn't realize it was happening. I mean, I knew it existed, but I didn't quite understand the scale. I mean, millions of millions, tens of millions of people worldwide. It's it's pretty terrifying. You know, you think it's a historical thing, don't you? But actually, it's a it's a here and now major issue around the world In every country, there are slaves. So you talk about Aesop.

Simon Ursell [00:44:08]:

You know, going all the way back to that, He was telling stories to help upend slavery, powerfully and successfully. So day you go. I mean, there's a there's a way to create a better world and a better place to live in is just tell the stories here. Witness stories about people who have been in those situations.

Clare Murphy [00:44:29]:

And we're living so I just wanna make a comment because we're looking at you, and we're really affected by how you're talking. And I'm just gonna say, like, right now, you're you know, what's coming through your face, your eyes, everything is the level of passion that you feel about this. Right. And so this is important thing, which is the transmission. And so you're right. By by even just you telling me and Rusty about modern slavery, we are now carrying that Story, and now we're gonna think about it. I wanna draw, the opposite end of this is we're we're in information overload, right, as a species Sure. Because of the Because of the Internet, so since 1989, we're looking at the amount of data and information and inverted comma stories.

Clare Murphy [00:45:09]:

We are in a deluge. We've never had this much information fired at us on a daily basis. So we are looking at traumatic stories from around the world constantly, The way the news cycle 247 has gone. So you've got a you've got a conflagration of events. Right? So it's not a it's not a conspiracy theory like that. It's it's more like we are living in a time where we have access to all the information in the world, Well, we're processing that through our brain, and the human psyche is not built for this level. So, yes, we have to look at things like modern slavery, But it's I find it more powerful and easier to process to sit here with you and have you tell me about it than this what we do When we are scrolling through screen after screen after screen and being exposed to information after information, the emotional and psychological processing is not Happening.

Simon Ursell [00:45:56]:

So what

Clare Murphy [00:45:57]:

we're dealing with

Simon Ursell [00:45:57]:

social media people.

Clare Murphy [00:45:58]:

Well, it's not just social media. It's news. It's it's all of it. It's we don't have impulse control. So I just wanna set like, as a word To the to the kind of listeners is to think about the blank space that we used to have in our brains to process these heavy stories and these intense stories. We don't allow for that anymore, and and we're expected to stay on top of all the stories that are coming in. And it doesn't allow any, Natural human processing to think about all of these traumas. So just to be mindful of that.

Clare Murphy [00:46:28]:

There's a lot of stories that we need to hear and a lot of stories we need to fight for, But also please mind your own inner space because it's the only thing you own.

Simon Ursell [00:46:36]:

Sure. I I hear that. Mia, my mindfulness coach, She would be nodding her head vigorously. I can see her doing it now in my mind, because, you know, self care, Allowing space.

Clare Murphy [00:46:50]:

It's not even self care though at this point. Like, we have never been in this, the information overload we're in right now. The data creep that's happening, how often are we away from a screen? Yeah. So it's it's it's so self care and wellness are these catch all terms that really are Can can can hit people either way when they hear them.

Simon Ursell [00:47:09]:

Sure.

Clare Murphy [00:47:09]:

But think about how we used to process information and stories and think about what's happening now. And you are not a computer. So there's a wonderful neuroscientist in the States that I work with called doctor Zab Johnson, and she's at the Wharton Neuroscience Initiative, and she talks about deep she's We've we've made her talk at length at the salon about the default mode network, which is the state your brain goes into. And I'm gonna say it in a storyteller way. Right? But the state your brain goes into when you're not task oriented, when you're not with a job, when you're not looking at a screen. And it's you know you know those epiphanies you have In the it might be in the shower or when you're out walking or something, when you're away from your phone, right, is because there are more parts of your brain connected up on this the storytelling way of saying it. And you go into a place of deep reflection and processing, which is where the good ideas come from. Because we're in this data creep, this information overload, There's no time for deep thinking or strategizing or processing.

Clare Murphy [00:48:03]:

So when you extrapolate out from what that will mean for us, The telling of stories is important, but there's also you have to leave silence and space for the stories to have to be able to rise up.

Simon Ursell [00:48:14]:

Yeah. That's where the magic happens, isn't it? There's a great story from Kirk Wallace, friend of the pod been on. They told me about, the penny dropped. Do you know where that phrase comes from? Which is I think it was Edison who was trying to come up with some new trying to be creative. And what he used to do is put his he'd Sit down on a chair, put his feet on a silver tray, and hold a silver penny between his knees. And he would sit there and just try and switch off, And chill out or maybe fall asleep. And as he relaxed, the penny would drop Yeah. And hit the tray and wake him up.

Simon Ursell [00:48:46]:

And then he would write down whatever it was that That he was thinking about. And that's where he came up with his best ideas, and that's where the phrase the penny drops come from.

Clare Murphy [00:48:53]:

That is brilliant. That is brilliant. And that's exactly it. Is we We know.

Simon Ursell [00:48:58]:

Christy. Just no. She's yep.

Clare Murphy [00:49:00]:

Anyway We have to make but but but the the screens are never gonna create those moments for us. It's up to us to create those moments. So we have to protect our blank space and our our task free space and our screen free space so that the penny can drop. Yeah. Otherwise, we're The strategies we're gonna come up with, the solutions we're gonna come up with, and the answers we're gonna come up with are gonna be impoverished because of the lack of thought that goes into them.

Simon Ursell [00:49:23]:

Yeah. Yes. Deep, deep thought, isn't it? And that and that magical space that Kirk talks about. Was it alpha waves or beta waves? Something that's going on in your brain. I I didn't understand it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:33]:

Busy beta. Busy beta. Yeah. That's the one you wanna avoid.

Simon Ursell [00:49:36]:

But you're trying to you're trying to get into a a state where you're Super, super creative, which is the state between waking and sleeping, which is pretty cool,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:45]:

isn't it? Yeah. Why'd you do your best thinking is a good Thing to consider, are you creating space for yourself and others to do that? You call that, Claire's, like, answered your bounce back ability stuff? Are you comfortable? The pod has comfortable. Answered any of your questions about

Simon Ursell [00:50:01]:

I think I think to I mean

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:02]:

Whilst whilst bathing in your own, Self brilliance.

Simon Ursell [00:50:07]:

I didn't call myself brilliant. I think you're fine, Claire did. But, I think there is a threat The there's gone through everything we said that is about resilience and being able to bounce back that it's linked together by stories. I mean, it's pretty much every I mean, for me, Everything you have spoken about is about creating the ability for people to process, to connect, to feel belonging. And when you go to, you know, a a scientist like Mustafa, that was every in in the poll we did with him last, everything he spoke about was about belonging, connection, all the things that storytelling is allowing us and helping us to do would We've timed beautifully with that. So I think the whole everything is this the the storytelling creates a whole, doesn't it? That that brings all of those things together, Allows people to be witnessed, make them feel safe, make them wanna try things out because they've heard somebody else's story That that gives them permission. I think in leadership I mean, we try to do this at Tyler Grange. I don't think we're intentional enough about it.

Simon Ursell [00:51:14]:

So definitely gonna be doing more of that. We're not even intentional enough about selling the stories of these people who a new person coming into the business might look up to somebody. I think, wow, they're brilliant. How do they do that? They're incredible. I could never do that. Whereas, that person might well be thinking, wow, that graduate's so great. They're so brilliant at that. I could never do that.

Simon Ursell [00:51:35]:

And telling those stories about vulnerability, and failure, and all the things that haven't worked, And the time and the the way they've learned from that, it gives permission to somebody to then do the same thing, and the story is everything in that Because it's believable, and it gives context. You I I can't tell someone to try and fail, but I could tell a story about when I tried and Failed, and that might allow them to do the same.

Clare Murphy [00:52:03]:

And the question then is, how do you make space in your company or in your daily culture? Where does the space exist? How do you encourage people to tell stories? And it needs to be done in a in a way that's organic and that's human, that isn't putting people on the spot. So it and that's everybody's challenge, really, that's listening.

Simon Ursell [00:52:20]:

Away. You know? We we we definitely don't do it in an organic way. Well, we we try to do it. So we've done some we get come in and video stories. So we've got some stuff on our website where they videoed. We're we're we're working on personal branding at the moment, so people tell their stories about themselves and because we think we think the person is much more powerful than the the corporate brand, whatever you wanna call it. So we're working on all of those kinds of things, and that's Storytelling, isn't it? But I'm wondering whether we're doing it all that brilliantly, having been profoundly affected by Clare's stories.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:55]:

Well well, I'll I'll complete the circle of this, of this podcast. We spoke at the start actually about people and connection and belonging and how important that was to get the best out of people. The the reality is in rugby, the Crusaders won the last 7 Super Rugby titles. They're the most successful Dynasty ever. They've been doing storytelling since 1995. And I was speaking to a coach last week, and he he said I was in with the Crusaders. Scott Robertson's just a great storyteller. And I was like, that's a pretty cool skill to have because it unites people.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:28]:

It connects people. It Probably gives us a common purpose. It actually allows us to chunk together information that's part of our game plan. And, actually, I think the flip of that is people who are starting to talk about, Like, detail, plans at at at 1 minute past 3, we're gonna be doing this, Rather than, like, this kind of organic but I do think I don't see that many people that have the skills that Scott Robertson has. And interestingly, I guess, La Rochelle just won the double in France, and they've brought in Dave Sharkey to be the person who helps Facilitate that because Ronan Agara is away. He's not that good at it. Saracens who've probably dominated English rugby over the last decade have again, they would. This will be really normal for them.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:13]:

Normal in their environments, and it wouldn't feel forced. My I see it in a few teams and actually asked a player the other day who was in a, an environment at the World Cup. I said, give me one word to describe that environment, And he said forced. And, like, people can see through that, the forced part of it as well, can't they? I guess What I'm trying to say is I think it does lead to a really good performance. I think it's vile.

Clare Murphy [00:54:42]:

And there's people in each of those places in Saracens and Crusaders who tell stories. And so how do you create storytelling culture? People within it Tell stories, and that allows other people to tell stories, and it's not forced. And it and it re it reinscribes It's all those things you're talking about, the culture, the knowledge, the belonging. It gets reinscribed and reinscribed as each story is told. And so it's finding a way Do that. That's meaningful in your environment.

Simon Ursell [00:55:09]:

Amazing. Thank you so much for coming on the pod. Please. I think we'll play as Dave, and I would love to do another couple of hours of this. Thank you so much, Clare.

Clare Murphy [00:55:18]:

My pleasure.

Simon Ursell [00:55:19]:

You loved having you on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:20]:

Thank you. Over and out.

Simon Ursell [00:55:23]:

Well, that was pretty incredible, Rusty. Thanks so much for introducing me to Clare. She's See, sensational, isn't she?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:30]:

I told you so. I I mean, I don't wanna say that, but I told you, like, it's, lots of people get you know, there's lots of Elements of, I guess, coaching leadership that are like this, to me. Like, storytelling's a huge part of it, and so but I think some people are struggling with it. I guess it's not on that many courses, So there's a little bit of that as well. I think it's starting to people are starting to understand the kind of benefits and the The things it could bring to both individuals and organizations. So, mate, I I appreciate you, eating humble pie. What, what was your favorite bit?

Simon Ursell [00:56:04]:

There were a lot. I mean, I particularly love the I I mean, the the the story she was telling us about storytelling, the stories about stories is It was incredible. So the medicine of storytelling, I just think, is pretty profound, isn't it? The impact she's having on people's lives By telling a story I mean, the guy with Alzheimer's, just, you know, kids, the the changes in behavior, I just think it's unbelievable, isn't it? I mean, how can you not be affected by that?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:33]:

Well, you were affected. So there was one point where she noticed That you are eyes wide and open jawed. So

Simon Ursell [00:56:39]:

Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:40]:

I love that. So the the the reality is, you know, as humans, Storytelling creatures, I think, are really, like probably to build on what you said. Just those that happened to me moments, which can be so helpful in teams, because Sometimes people, they're not quite sure if they're doing a good job as an example, and then suddenly, they get you know, the boss goes you know, tells him a story, and, Oh, okay. That happened to you as well. Like, oh, and that kind of connection and that understanding, which is gonna lead into my 2nd best bit. So I'm gonna tell you my 2nd best but

Simon Ursell [00:57:11]:

Go on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:12]:

Just just whilst, you know, because you're still sat in the humble pie. And that's the tacit the the tacit knowledge transfer problem. So Just that ability to for the elders, and she referenced the elders a bit at the end, and they and they don't have to be a hold. But they probably had some experiences, Some war stories, some scars, some stuff that's gonna help people who are new into a business better understand Decision making, how we do things around here, what are the consequences of certain things. So, again, just creating situations where we can share Brilliant stories that are gonna help that be kind of pass through the generations of a team or a business. I mean, there's my That's my 2nd one. What's your what's your 2nd one?

Simon Ursell [00:57:55]:

Well, building on that, I mean, it's it's the bounce back ability point, isn't it? That the the fact that that builds resilience up. Because if you you've heard A story from an elder about something that's happened to them and it's and that happens to you, you've got something to fall back on, and you tend to remember stories. I mean, I do. Oh, I mean, I I love it. Just so cool. And I think we are all doing a bit of storytelling, aren't we? But it's more you know, somebody like Clare can help you much more intentionally tell Stories better, more effectively in a great way. It's gonna help people be resilient, because they can They can really relate to the story much better than they can to say a process or a or a system or or, you know, in sport, maybe a play, in business, maybe a there's some sort of organizational structure, whatever, but a story just gives you it's so much more depth The richness and meaning to it is is amazing. And, I mean, I love the sort of talking about it as an emotional gem, you know, and that sort of, it is and it's not just you.

Simon Ursell [00:58:55]:

There's the storyteller that's involved. Everybody's involved. When you're telling a story, everybody tends to get involved in it. You can access Bits of it, you can come in partway through. It's just you know, they're just it's just such a brilliant, brilliant thing. I mean, I'm genuinely blown away by that. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:59:12]:

And Players working in the most extreme of circumstances. So you're talking about people who've been on frontline NHS. You talk about NASA. You talk, You know, talking about teams that are under extreme stress. And talking of which, I did see a bit of a glint in her eye at the end. I think she was worried you were gonna take her hostage because you enjoyed it so much.

Simon Ursell [00:59:30]:

Yeah. Well, I might. She's I'm definitely getting her into Tyler Grange. Why wouldn't you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:59:35]:

Nice. Well, look. It's a great challenge for me. In future pods, I need to find more pods that make you eat humble pie. Over and out. Thanks so much for joining us on the Bands Back Building podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can I reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:59:54]:

LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursel, u r s for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [01:00:00]:

TikTok? No. Not really. LinkedIn, Ross Lanshaw, and then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts.

Simon Ursell [01:00:08]:

Yeah. Second that.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:00:09]:

Over