Nurturing Human Connections: Lessons in Resilience and Community from James Rutter of COOK | Episode 11

Today on the Bouncebackability Podcast we speak to 

James Rutter, Chief Creative Officer at a pioneering frozen food company COOK. James joined COOK in 2010 after 15 years as a financial journalist and editor. He now oversees internal and external branding and communications across the organisation. 

COOK is a founding UK B Corp, committed to using its business as a force for good in society and has been ranked in the ‘Top 100 Best Companies To Work For’ every year since 2013.

Today’s episode explores how they have earned that accolade by shining a light on the significance of community resilience and the role businesses must play in contributing to the well-being of the communities they operate in. We discussed the virtuous cycle of businesses supporting resilient communities and the positive impact this has on both the business and the community.

In this episode:

04:58 Thriving shops build resilient, community-based economies.

08:31 Relationships are crucial for organisational success.

15:56 Four-day week boosts productivity and connections.

20:23 Empower elders in the evolving workplace environment.

44:01 Incredible stories of support and personal growth.

47:44 Encouraging radical transparency and openness at work.

51:25 Focusing on gatherings for more energy.

You can connect with James Rutter here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/james-rutter-8972079/

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:09]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on. Hi, everybody. Welcome to bounce back ability. We're about to start a new year of pods. So who've we got coming on today? Rusty?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:19]:
Well, happy new year, everyone. Great to have you with us. James Rutter, good friend of mine from university, a winger by trade, now working for Cook. Doing amazing things there around leadership, recruitment. They're the shop that just down the end of my road that we get our Christmas turkey from.

Simon Ursell [00:00:39]:
Nice.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:40]:
So, yeah, I guess frozen foods, but probably done slightly differently. High quality, but also as an organization. And you'll know as a B corps and all the stuff that they do around purpose and people and planet. But also, I think they're doing some interesting things around. I guess partly because of the breadth of roles within their organization, also the breadth of people. Just some really good stuff around, like connection, helping get the best out of people, individualizing stuff. I'm sure we'll lead into a little bit of storytelling which will get you excited. And we'll mention Claire Murphy again.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:16]:
And you'll be struggling to contain your enthusiasm.

Simon Ursell [00:01:20]:
You're just talking about yourself there, Rusty. Come on, let's be honest.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:24]:
Look, let's. Great to have you, everyone back with us and look forward to you listening in with ruts.

Simon Ursell [00:01:32]:
Let's get him on. Okay. Welcome to the bounce back ability podcast. First one of 2024. Brilliant to be back. So what are we doing today, Rusty?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:43]:
We're sitting in a room near Windsor Castle. In a room that looks nothing like a castle.

Simon Ursell [00:01:48]:
No windows. It's a bit weird, isn't it?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:50]:
And we brought James Ritter along today. I brought him for two reasons. One is to give you a lecture on what a B court is.

James rutter [00:01:57]:
Yes.

Simon Ursell [00:01:57]:
Absolutely embarrassed myself as ever.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:01]:
And secondly. Yeah, look, Rutz is. How am I going to describe him? Ace? A university. A silky winger. John's what? A red boy. A red Boy at John's and Cambridge University, running around doing magical stuff. Has progressed from that to being the king of LinkedIn, working for cook and doing some amazing stuff. And then has now recently joined the Boaty Boys, which is a very small group of us, that middle aged men who should look better than they do with.

Simon Ursell [00:02:38]:
Better than me. You're doing something right with dumbbells on Zoom.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:42]:
So with that in mind, I thought I'd bring him on and just delve into. I know he's a big fan of the pod and I'm sure we'll revisit some of the lessons from other pods, but already, like, just grabbing a quick coffee and chatting through some of the stuff I'm excited about what's to come?

Simon Ursell [00:02:59]:
Sure. Hi, Russ.

James rutter [00:03:00]:
Hiya. Long time since I was called a silky winger, man. The biggest thing I can remember is Russ never passing me the ball as well.

Simon Ursell [00:03:06]:
I can believe that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:08]:
Is that true?

James rutter [00:03:10]:
That's definitely. Oh, come on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:15]:
Maybe I just became a better ball player as I got older.

Simon Ursell [00:03:19]:
Just a backbone player. Rusty, you're never going to let go of the ball, are you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:23]:
I actually played 1012 recently. Just saying. Just saying.

Simon Ursell [00:03:26]:
Indeed. Wow.

James rutter [00:03:28]:
No, thanks for having me.

Simon Ursell [00:03:30]:
So do you want to tell us a little bit about cook, where you're working now? Sounds like an amazing organization, B Corp, is it a couple of 1000, 2000.

James rutter [00:03:41]:
People now these days? Yeah. So for those who don't know cook and haven't had the pleasure eating our food. So we're kind of a pioneering frozen food business. We've been around 27 years now. It's an awful long time. But in that time we've grown from literally a little shop and a little kitchen in an old disused pizza kitchen into now. We got just about to have 100 shops up and down the land. We got 1000 concessions, we got 2000 people.

James rutter [00:04:08]:
As you said, simon, we were one of the very first B corps in this country, which is a certification for kind of better business. We just believe that business is about more than making a profit and that actually done right. Business is an incredible kind of force for change, for positive change in the world, in this country, in our communities. And, yeah, we just all need to get with the program, basically.

Simon Ursell [00:04:33]:
Yeah, I mean, those kinds of things. There's a lot of bounce back ability for the whole of community, isn't there? If businesses pay attention to it with things like B Corp is helping our communities be more resilient, it's business's job as well, isn't it? Shouldn't just rely on government and communities themselves. Businesses need to engage, help communities become more resilient and a bit more bouncy, don't we?

James rutter [00:04:58]:
Absolutely. We see it, I suppose, in our shops. So the fact that everybody talks about the high street dying, about shops getting boarded up and shops closed, and the idea, well, how can you kind of flip that and say, actually a great shop is part of a great community. A great community needs places that sell stuff and enable people to get the things they want. But also that gathers people together, that gives the sense of the community having a heart. We see it in terms of our kitchens in a pretty deprived area down in Kent, just having good jobs in a town really matters. How do you make sure that that is part of, like you said, a resilient, bounce backable community, as it were. So everywhere we look, it's like that idea of not just how can we run a successful business, but how can we make sure the community where we are is better because we're there?

Simon Ursell [00:05:50]:
That also helps make your organization really resilient and bouncy as well, doesn't it? Because if you're creating a resilient community that you are supporting and helping, that community is then going to give you an excellent resource which you can then use to help your business achieve its objectives.

James rutter [00:06:07]:
It is a virtuous circle done right. It should be a virtuous circle. It should be that sense in which the classic flywheel, isn't it? It should gather momentum if you do it right. It's like people come and work, people come and shop, people come and engage with you. Because of that, they get benefit in their life. They feel more loyalty, they actually get closer to their colleagues or their neighbors. They come to your shop again, because actually they now recognize the person on the other side of the till. They say hello.

James rutter [00:06:35]:
They can remember when they came last time. That sense of community building is something that I think we're going to get all a bit meta now, maybe, but you could argue has declined. And we've just been through this incredible kind of individualistic century, when it's all about me, it's all about what I can do. Yeah, greed is good. Absolutely. And then we came out of that into the 21st century, and technology is suddenly undermining lots of that stuff. And then we had this pandemic, which was dreadful, let's be clear, but also gave that little glimpse for people of why community is important, why your neighbors matter, why the people down the road. It pays to know their name.

James rutter [00:07:28]:
And some of the benefit we could get out of that. And I think if you try and take a positive view of that, it's maybe we can retain some of that as we go forward and remind people of what that was like when it was good. And how can we kind of reach out a bit more for that sense of community? Citizenship is another great word that's kind of starting to bubble up a bit. How can we be more of a citizen or less of a consumer of everything, be it work, be it shopping, be it how we go about education, be it whatever, how do we lean into it as citizens? Rather than just sit back and be consumers.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:07]:
Yeah. There's two things we chatted about that you've kind of brought up there, and I love the word gathering. So I'm interested in one thing you said about cookies. Everything's built on relationships, so why. And then the second thing was, like, gathering. Tell me more about why you believe that. What's the stuff you're doing? What's the impact of it?

James rutter [00:08:31]:
Cool. So, relationships, I guess we had a little bit of a kind of damascene moment, I guess probably about ten years, maybe a bit more ago. There was this realization that when you run a business or whatever organization you're in, type of organization, all you are is a bunch of people trying to do something together that you couldn't do alone. That's all it is. When we put a structure around it and you call it a business or a charity or government or whatever you want to do, but that's all it is, is a bunch of people. And if that's all it is, then really what counts is the connections between those people. It's what happens in relationship between people that gives that group more impetus, more energy, more impact than they would have as a group of isolated individuals. So relationships are what counts.

James rutter [00:09:30]:
And we came across this great kind of Harvard study, which is, I think, the longest running study of human happiness. It's been going since, I want to say, 1938, and it's called the Harvard Grant study. There's a great TED talk on it. And so it's been going for 80, 90 years. And it took, I think it was about 150 undergraduates at Harvard in 1938. And it said, look, we're going to survey you every two years for the rest of your life and just see how you're doing. Are you happy? What's going on? What's your well being like? And so that's exactly what they did. And we should say it's just blokes, because there were only men at Harvard at the time, but it happened.

James rutter [00:10:13]:
So for the next 60 od years, they did this survey every two years. And what they found after all that time, they came down to the one conclusion, like, the measure of happiness across a lifetime is the warmth of your relationships with other people. And it was like, oh, whoa. That was like a proper lightning bolt. So if that's all that counts in life, why isn't that all that counts in work as well? And so if we want to have a good work life, we want to feel fulfilled and happy at work. What really counts is the warmth of our relationships with the people we surround ourselves with. So that was the relationships thing.

Simon Ursell [00:10:50]:
That is quite profound. Interestingly, on our podcast with Suzanne, and Rusty's going to school me on exactly what she said.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:57]:
Now, I suspect I'm just waiting to shout Bingo.

Simon Ursell [00:11:01]:
You can shout bingo at me. What am I supposed to say for being. She was talking about this whole relationship thing. And the animals are hardwired to avoid predators and to survive human beings. We're hardwired to avoid losing relationships. So from the very earliest moment you're born right the way through, one of the things we're doing all of the time is trying to maintain relationships, build relationships. And I don't think most of the time, we don't even know we're doing this, do we? And it's interesting you say that from that Harvard study. I knew of it, but that's really fascinating.

Simon Ursell [00:11:41]:
We are always trying to build relationships, aren't we? And I think if organizations want to create resilient, bouncy organizations, working on those relationships is huge. Giving people the ability to maintain, to grow the skills and the ability to have and maintain relationships is going to create happy, resilient people.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:02]:
I was going to just say, and just leading it into the gatherings bit, it just makes me think about Saracens. And they do the socials, they go away, they drop people off in France and you've got to find a central location. They go skiing, they have the crush at the club. So you'll see wives and girlfriends and partners and kids around that environment. But one of their studies is that every time they go away and do a social, they win the game after it. So despite being physiologically probably as badly prepared as you could be for a game, actually the connections trump that. And again, I just heard the other day, they talking about the last time they lost x number of games in a row. So I think it was seven was a few years ago.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:46]:
And I remember speaking to peely at the time and he went, and often at that time, coaches go, we need to get into the detail, we need to train more. He just went, we just haven't been connecting enough.

James rutter [00:12:56]:
Yeah, right.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:57]:
Yeah, they spent more time connecting.

James rutter [00:13:00]:
I love that. But it is like that sense in which part of the work is the relationship's work and a big part of the work is that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:09]:
So where do the gathering? So why that word and how are you using it?

James rutter [00:13:17]:
So part of that whole kind of focus on relationships and trying to build relationships across a big group of people, ultimately, like 2000 today or whatever, is giving people the opportunity to really connect. So if you're not going to do that, how on earth are you going to kind of make that happen? A real focus just on getting people together, small groups, big groups, as regularly as possible in terms of what time of money will allow, and then making sure that that time is really thought through and thought out and you're squeezing the most from it almost. Because like you say, that is going to be the energy that's almost the battery that is then going to power you over the next however many weeks, months or whatever until you next do it again. And a bit like that. Saracen's example, I guess after we've done a big gathering, get together for people, you'll come in on the Monday or the next day, whenever it is, and you'll hear it. You will just hear it and sense it and feel it in the atmosphere of the place that just everybody's buzzing, there's buzz. That's magic. That's the relationship kind of gold dust, isn't it? If you can create that sense of buzz around any group, it almost becomes inevitable that you're going to perform a level up from what you were probably performing the day before the gathering.

Simon Ursell [00:14:44]:
And that's so important, isn't it? I mean, there's a lot of talk about hybrid workings and their homeworking those kinds of things.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:51]:
I read Zoom as soon as you started speaking about it because I was just thinking about people are wrestling with hybrid work. Claire Murphy spoke again about having to give people visuals on Zoom of almost clapping and finger clicking when people doing stuff. Well, because then you get that affirmation or that dopamine hit from other people that sometimes you don't get from meeting in the room.

Simon Ursell [00:15:17]:
So I guess times you're on Zoom and all the screens are switched off, microphones are off and you're talking. I mean, that's pretty.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:15:23]:
Might just be you. Might just be you. It's good feedback.

James rutter [00:15:26]:
It's good feedback for me.

Simon Ursell [00:15:28]:
But it does happen, doesn't it? People tend to come on and switch the screen and it's a bit od. And we do have hybrid working with Tyler Graham's. We're doing a lot of unsociable hours and things like that. People are in and out of the office anyway. But I think what we've learned, and it sounds like you're doing it amazingly well. And I'm certainly going to. I've been picking your brains here because if you create an environment that people want to come to and you create, make sure it's fun enjoyable place to be. People want to come in.

Simon Ursell [00:15:56]:
I mean, our four day week is quite helpful for that because three days off Monday, you kind of want to come in because you want to see what's going on. It's almost that absence helps the connection. But creating a great environment for people to come in and socialize and interact together boosts performance, boosts productivity, it boosts well being, it boosts resilience, those human connections. Being together, so, so important. And I think one of the mistakes a lot of leaders are making in the business world is mandating time in the office. You must come in. That takes all the fun out of it, all the joy out of it. They come in and being forced to come in.

Simon Ursell [00:16:34]:
There's no individualization of it. It's just come in, sit at your desk, be annoyed that you've been made to come in, go and find another job, probably, yeah. But I think in order to create a proper, good, hybrid workforce like we've got, you want to try and make the office a place they want to go.

James rutter [00:16:55]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Simon Ursell [00:16:55]:
Choose to be in and don't make them come in.

James rutter [00:16:58]:
Yeah. I don't think it's easy. And equally, I don't think there's one right answer to it. And I think one of the interesting, you could say, kind of developments post Covid, is that you now have such a broad spectrum in terms of how working environments work. And you could argue, well, actually, maybe that's really positive because different strokes for different folks. Some people will love to come in, will be in a workplace that is a five day a week, full on type of vibe. Other people probably want a lot less. And I think it's just interesting.

James rutter [00:17:32]:
How does each company choose to approach it? How much flex do you give? How much do you just want to appeal to a certain type of person who might want a certain type of environment, or do you want to have breadth and therefore perhaps give it a bit more flexibility around the edges?

Simon Ursell [00:17:46]:
Do you have any examples at cook of how you individualize things, how you do different? Because I understand you have quite a few different roles within the organization, so people are going to need different things, I guess.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:57]:
Yeah.

James rutter [00:18:00]:
We'Ve got all types of roles and lots of our roles literally can't be done in any other way than a pretty structured work. We've got big kind of manufacturing kitchens where people have a shift. It's proper manufacturing shift work. We got shops that clearly work on a similar type of basis. Then you've got, if you like, the desk based functions, which are much more flexible of its nature. That means there's breadth there and then within the office. And I think we reflected what we generally felt. One of our big triumphs, kind of post lockdown, was successfully bringing people back into a hybrid type of workplace in a way that everybody seemed to embrace.

James rutter [00:18:41]:
There's always a few outliers, there's always a few people who don't like it and actually that's fine. And not forcing it and letting it just find its level. And within team, the team being the key structure, how does your team want to work? What makes your direct team most successful? Let the team sort it out themselves.

Simon Ursell [00:19:00]:
That's interesting because I don't know if you found this, but we certainly found the more sort of experienced, the longer you've been working, the more knowledge you had. You probably felt able not to be in the office so much. Whereas the newer people coming into the business, the less experienced. They really wanted those experienced people to be with them so they could learn off them. So it's almost. Some of the more experienced people need to understand that they're elders.

James rutter [00:19:28]:
Yeah, right.

Simon Ursell [00:19:29]:
They need to share their stories, their knowledge, and actually helping them understand the joy of doing that and the reward of doing that and of helping people really help them to choose to come in realizing that they needed to help others. That's quite cool because that's fun. That's good fun.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:50]:
Yeah. I almost think that's like a post Covid, like almost like a missing meeting. And a couple of things we've definitely chatted about with TG. One is around just going on car journeys with those types of people. So sometimes you get locked in a car with someone 3 hours then, and the other one was, and I know other people have used this, but that war stories of just getting you to quiz those people for a period and find out what was their hardest moment, what did they learn from that? Because that definitely went missing during lockdown.

Simon Ursell [00:20:21]:
Oh, sure.

James rutter [00:20:23]:
But also some of the language there is really kind of important and powerful, particularly for if you like the older generation, like seeing yourself as a mentor, seeing yourself as an elder, not just as the crusty old gray guy in the corner, is so empowering. Again, a little bit kind of off topic maybe, but it's really interesting if and how the workplace can evolve to be in a way more accepting of age. So everybody's always focused on the next gen coming through and how they're different. But it's also really interesting to think about how do you, as our population ages, which it is doing, let's be honest, in the west, how do you create space for really productive. Again, really productive, purposeful roles for the elders. How do you fit them in? How do you blend those generations in a way that's going to be actually really productive for both ends? Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:24]:
And Claire Murphy spoke about that tacit knowledge transfer problem, which is essentially what we're talking about. I end up speaking to quite a lot of leaders who, as you said, see themselves as that, like the gray older person who's five years away from retiring. And actually, I'm often be like, okay, who are the three people you think you could help the most? How do you think you'd help them? We're going into 2024. Who's going to be having the toughest time in January? Like, why? How do you think you can help them? And suddenly those people going, oh, wow, this is service. This is quite cool for my soul.

James rutter [00:21:56]:
I love that. I'm going to steal that. I'm going to go into work on Monday and say to everybody over the age of x, who are the three people you can help the most? That's done. Cheers, Rusty. Pay for my petrol. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:22:09]:
It's not so much about age. No, of course, it's about experience, isn't it? I mean, you can have a young person with huge experience of a role or of your organization. We've got young people in their 20s who've been with tidy Grange for many years who have a huge amount of experience of how we work, not necessarily the technical knowledge of the work itself, but the knowledge of Tyler Grange's culture and environment and Claire's. We've got one of Claire's colleagues coming in to speak to us about storytelling. And one of the things we're going to try and upskill our guys in is the ability to tell those stories really effectively so that people coming into Tyler Grange are going to be able to understand how we operate, how we work through stories, because we can do all of the usual three word culture values stuff, which is helpful, but possibly not as helpful as many people think. Those stories, I think, are massively powerful.

James rutter [00:23:10]:
Yeah. This is in the sweet spot of your chum, Owen Eastwood Russ, isn't it? It's just that sense to create belonging in a group. You tell the stories that resonate through the ages and give everybody space to tell their own story. I think that's how I loved Claire Murphy we were talking about before, but I just thought she.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:33]:
Not as much as Simon did.

Simon Ursell [00:23:35]:
Rusty's pretty happy about. Come on. We all enjoyed.

James rutter [00:23:40]:
She was amazing and just some of the stuff I think we've seen at cook around story and its power is genuinely transformational. And I think the power of it a little bit, which she alluded to, is when people feel the permission to own their story, which an incredibly large number of people don't feel. And how do you give them space to do that?

Simon Ursell [00:24:12]:
With some posture syndrome and barriers like that getting in the way of it, isn't it? And them feeling like they don't have a story to say.

James rutter [00:24:19]:
I think there's some of that and.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:20]:
The consequences of tell this story, I'm in trouble, I'm getting sacked, I'll think less of me, I look weak. That is a significant percentage of the.

James rutter [00:24:30]:
Sports people I speak most. We see it on lots of different levels, because without being as maybe really intentional about it as Claire would be, we've created space for lots of storytelling at different places throughout the stories.

Simon Ursell [00:24:47]:
You could chow. I don't want to put you on the spot.

James rutter [00:24:50]:
So in terms of space through the organization, so we have our kind of leadership development program, which has five levels, but at every level, almost the graduation, is you standing up and telling a story to an audience.

Simon Ursell [00:25:06]:
Wow.

James rutter [00:25:07]:
And it's genuinely one of the most powerful things. So we always invite an audience. So it's not just the people on the course. There's always a few more people. And it is so powerful. So that's at every level. But the one that always stands out as being most transformational is our raw talent program, which is for people with barriers to employment. And sometimes that's prison, sometimes homelessness, sometimes it's addiction, sometimes just long term unemployment.

James rutter [00:25:32]:
So that's a very focused program, a two week program for people who are really struggling to get into work for whatever reason. And again, the culmination of that is a story. They stand up and tell a story. And a little bit like Claire's example of the guy who grew five inches, or however many inches it is that visual almost experience. The before and after is somebody who's grown a few inches. And the sense of control that that gives to people that they probably have never had in their lives is just phenomenal.

Simon Ursell [00:26:14]:
That's amazing. So how many people do you have coming through that world talent program? Is that something you're doing a lot of?

James rutter [00:26:20]:
So we do about four or five programs a year.

Simon Ursell [00:26:24]:
Wow. That's.

James rutter [00:26:25]:
I mean, last year we did a couple inside prison, which was quite a thing, and going, I'd never been into a prison before, and I went in twice last year. And the obvious thing to say, which sounds quite banal, is it taught me you really don't ever want to get sent to prison. But perhaps not for the reasons that I might have thought in advance, because it wasn't that it felt necessarily dangerous or intimidating, it was just the real kind of. You felt it inside you that you had no control, that your power was gone. And that sense of powerlessness and lack of control is just frightening and you can see how it destroys people and then what they've left trying to do after prison is somehow get back a sense of control over their life when they often think that everybody's going to be judging them for whatever they say and whatever they do.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:20]:
Yeah, I think you. And again, you just taken me back to a car park outside of prison where I stood there for about 20 minutes thinking exactly when feeling exactly what you just described there. It was quite a traumatic experience for me, I guess. Yeah. You spoke earlier and Simon, I know you're obsessed with Mustafa's matrix, but just actually really having to individualize stuff for people who've come through this program and actually that sense of lack of control, actually, you couldn't put them into an environment that me and Simon would love. You'd actually have to be quite structured, you would have to have really high support. They might be working with other people who might not have had similar experiences but also have those needs, but also people that don't have those needs. So you really do have the whole spectrum of society and so you got to be experts at this stuff, I imagine.

James rutter [00:28:22]:
Yeah. And you're right. So we've done that program for, gosh, eight years now. And through that we have learned so much in terms of, particularly in terms of the amount of support you then need to give people. You can give people a two week course, fantastic pat on the back and give them a job, even bigger pat on the back. But unless then they have this support network around them, there is no way they are going to fly. They need that really strong support network for quite some time and sometimes they need support which we just can't give and which the system very sadly just doesn't provide. If they don't have support for housing, then you come out of prison, you don't have support for housing, then what do you do? Where do you go without a house? You can't get a job, you can't get a bank account, you can't get X, Y and Z.

James rutter [00:29:11]:
And yet that's seldom tied up with the rest of their needs. And so there's nothing more frustrating than we meet a great person who's maybe been in prison. We think that we can really help them, that we can give them a job, get them back on their feet, but they can't take that job up because they can't get housing close enough to our kitchens in order to do the job. That is just. What a waste.

Simon Ursell [00:29:32]:
Yeah, that sounds pretty depressing. Wow, that is so impressive. And again, it sort of builds back into that resilient communities being about society being selflessly giving. But then that has a selfish outcome in that you have a resilient, wonderful community of people that really enjoy being around, working with, being near cook.

James rutter [00:29:58]:
Yeah. And we were talking a little bit about earlier about purpose, in that sense in which you've got to make your purpose, whatever your kind of grand company or organizational purpose is, you've got to make that relevant for individuals. So, like, that idea of purpose is personal. And through raw talent, I think, particularly within our kitchens, you see that. So if you like the non raw talent workforce who are supporting those people, see that their role suddenly has a much bigger impact and meaning than just them getting paid. And that sense in which you're letting them. Another great phrase like witness your impact. How do you enable people to really witness their impact that this is making a difference beyond just me getting paid or me doing a good job? I can see that I'm having a positive impact.

James rutter [00:30:47]:
And the story that I love from this was one of the very first. It might even have been the first raw talent program we did. And there was one team in the kitchen that was just so before we put anybody from prison into the kitchen, we talked to everybody about it, made sure they were comfortable, that they understood why we were doing it, that they weren't going to be at risk, all that kind of stuff. And there was one team that was just resistant. Just, look, there's no way I want somebody from prison kind of working in my da da da da. In some ways a natural response. So we were a bit worried about it. And so on, like, day one, guy comes in, works in that team, goes, okay, day two, he comes in, and at lunchtime, he sits down in the canteen.

James rutter [00:31:33]:
And one of the women in the team had noticed on day one he didn't have any pat lunch. And so she had made him sandwiches, and she brought them in on day two to give him lunch. And it's that sense in which suddenly people go, oh, I'm seeing something. I'm seeing somebody in need, and I can do something to fulfill that need. And again, that's that powerful human connection that's. Back a bit to relationships. Back a bit.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:58]:
There must be so many tears that cook, honestly. Like this story, a storytelling fear. The end of the course, people crying. Oh, my God. I'd have to sit at the back.

James rutter [00:32:11]:
No, they were amazing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:12]:
Yeah.

James rutter [00:32:12]:
Bring your tissues.

Simon Ursell [00:32:13]:
Dark glasses on.

James rutter [00:32:14]:
Bring your tissues. I'm not crying, actually.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:17]:
Well, it probably explains a junior doctor. Strike that. Witness your impact. Like being close to impact. Being close to your purpose is really highly helpful in developing people who are able to bounce back, able to be effective, able to get the best out of themselves. It's super important, isn't it? I just wrote two things, actually, while you were talking. One was three words I used to describe the people who work in the cook near me. Helpful, happy and informative.

James rutter [00:32:43]:
Oh, that's nice.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:44]:
There's some feedback.

James rutter [00:32:45]:
Thank you for the bristol. That's lovely.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:47]:
And then the other thing that I heard, this is like an amazing piece of data, and you might have seen this, I did tweet it the other day. So if you added up all the atoms from me and you two, and the other 8 billion people on the planet and put them together, how big would that be?

Simon Ursell [00:33:07]:
Not that big.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:08]:
Well, give me, like, how big do you think?

Simon Ursell [00:33:11]:
I don't know. I saw a thing where we'd all fit into Central Park.

James rutter [00:33:15]:
I wouldn't say something like that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:16]:
A sugar cube.

James rutter [00:33:17]:
Sugar cube.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:18]:
So much space in between atoms.

James rutter [00:33:20]:
Wow.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:20]:
So just that reality of that kind of makes you go, oh, right. And so when you started speaking about just going from this bunch of atoms to this kind of. To this, people that can now work together, can get the best out of it, can maximize. It's like quite a. Obviously, you're fueling all my biases around relationships, gathering, storytelling.

James rutter [00:33:45]:
Yeah, but it's that incredible power of human connection, isn't it? You think about what we do. We're here, we're living, we're doing whatever, and then we're going to be forgotten like that. And all we've got is, like this little moment and this connection that we share, that's the magic between us, is that connection.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:09]:
And did you always think like this? Or is this something that, like working a cook and being around or doing Bowie boys workouts with dumbbells.

James rutter [00:34:20]:
That's been the moment, genuinely, I think it's been cook. And I was intrigued. I was thinking as I was driving here, it's kind of interesting to me that, in a sense, both you and I, Russ, have ended up in a similar place. In the bigger kind of worldview type sense, which is just interesting to me. It's like, oh, how do we end up there from going very different routes. But it's kind of interesting. But cook is genuinely a wonderful place to work. And I always say to people, the best I could say about cook is I would love my kids to work there.

James rutter [00:34:58]:
And I genuinely believe there are more businesses like cook. And this isn't to say we're perfect. We do things wrong all the time. We get stuff wrong, but we're always trying to do the right thing, do a good thing for the world. Trying to make those relationships kind of nourish relationships is kind of how we think about what we do. And that's always our aim. No matter when we get it wrong, we'll pick ourselves up and we'll go again. I love the fact that Tyler Granger is a beacon.

James rutter [00:35:26]:
While wonderful thing. I look at some of the stuff you're doing again and it's like, yeah, that kind know swells my heart. What a great know Tyler Granger doing. There should be more Tyler Grangers in the world. It's just like how do you help people see that there is a different way of doing things in the way that they've been kind of drilled into them through education?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:44]:
Well, obviously as corporate life, you've helped me and Simon understand more about b course now is writing it down around people planets purpose. It would be interesting, wouldn't it, to look at what's the impact of that organization, the culture of that organization on people's happiness, well being, bounce back, ability, all of that stuff. Do people stay there longer? Do they go away, realize that they've made a mistake and desperately want to come back where they can feel like they belong? That fascinates me that we've hopefully got this set of organizations that are thinking this stuff's really important and we might have some others. And me and, you know, a couple of examples of people that have left Tyler Grange and have gone, whoa, I want to come back.

James rutter [00:36:26]:
Yeah, we've got a few of those as well.

Simon Ursell [00:36:29]:
But I think one of the mistakes we've made in the past is try and create a business that, and I've spoken about retention before. Retention of employees is a phrase I really dislike. It sounds like you've got digestive issues and you need the laxative you're trying to retain so much. You need to have people moving through your organization. The world no longer lives. We don't live in this world where people start a job at one organization stay there forever. It happens, actually. I wonder if cook probably has more than most.

James rutter [00:36:59]:
Yeah, we have quite a lot.

Simon Ursell [00:37:00]:
But I think it's actually really healthy for people to realize that there's other things to do. And as your life changes, as you get more experience, you decide you want to do something different, you're going to experience something new. You just want people to have the best possible time they can have whilst they're with you and be really clear about what it is you're trying to do and not try and hold on to people and keep them if they choose to leave. We try and celebrate that at Charlie Grange.

James rutter [00:37:22]:
Love that.

Simon Ursell [00:37:23]:
It's something we really want to try and achieve as an organization.

James rutter [00:37:27]:
I've got a question, just because I'm intrigued on both your perspectives to the degree to which you think the word family is or isn't applicable to either business or like, sporting organizations.

Simon Ursell [00:37:39]:
I dislike the phrase family when it applies to organizations.

James rutter [00:37:43]:
Interesting. Why?

Simon Ursell [00:37:47]:
I think it's quite problematic in terms of you tend to have a patriarch, a matriarch, you tend to have siblings. Those worlds are pretty fixed in a family. The analogy of a family is something warm. I don't think people mean family when they say family, I guess is what I'm trying to say.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:06]:
Right.

Simon Ursell [00:38:07]:
I think they're looking at a healthy relationships. And often families aren't necessarily always healthy relationships. Most are, some aren't. And I think that analogy can be very problematic for some people. And I think it's something you need to be very careful about using in an organization.

James rutter [00:38:25]:
I'm not saying that's interesting. I'm just intrigued.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:29]:
Can people see your language? Really important question, obviously, as I always say, when you said the word family, Simon saw something different to me. I thought, similar to what you say, like, would I want my kids to be there? Would it be? And again, I'll pick on, you know, and I said, oh, Suzanne's quite tough. And you. No, no, she's kind. So I think families are kind, but that is sometimes toughness. So I think, again, you agree, if family's something, that's a word that resonates with your people and they understand what it looks like and what that means and what that means when times are tough and what that means when times are going well, then by all means use the word family. I'm chilled with it, really. If you've got a better word, use a better word.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:08]:
But I do think it's helpful to have some language that binds us together.

James rutter [00:39:17]:
We use the word family. I'm just always just popped into my head. I was intrigued.

Simon Ursell [00:39:21]:
I have no problem with family being used. I just wouldn't use it myself.

James rutter [00:39:25]:
Yeah, right.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:25]:
Yeah.

James rutter [00:39:25]:
Yeah. I think there's a really interesting. The analogy you're bringing, and I think this might be the Seattle Seahawks guy, Pete Carroll, because I think whether they use family explicitly or not, I'm not sure, but he definitely talked. I heard him talking about it as a sense in which, look, when you join our organization, we are kind of saying that we are now invested in you for life. Whether you're within our organization, formally or not, we are making that commitment. And that doesn't say you have to kind of make the same commitment. You can choose to move that, but we're saying we're kind of committed, which I just love the sentiment of it. And again, it's like using the word love in business or in sport again, is interesting.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:13]:
I spoke to a coach the other day and the owners of the club introduced him and the other coaches at the start of this season. As we are fully invested in these people, we see them as the. I think you can guess where their stories ended. Someone lost their job already and he's super stressed about his job. If it's that we've made a good decision to bring you in, we're here to support you. We're here for however long, then that's how you would describe TG Simon. I'm sure that I would think that would be a good place for people to be. We're going to help them get the best out of themselves, but at some point they might move on.

James rutter [00:40:54]:
Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:40:54]:
I spend quite a lot of time talking to people who have left teaching and helping mean, I just do. Yeah, I think you build a strong relationship up with people at work. I don't think that ends just because they're no longer in the organization. The relationship I have with them still exists, so I'm going to help them and I would hope they'd help me. In fact, they definitely help me. If I asked, they would, I'm sure. And if that's what family means, that's what family means. It's just the word can be a.

James rutter [00:41:25]:
Motive and yeah, I guess that's why.

Simon Ursell [00:41:27]:
I'm cautious of it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:29]:
I've been debating a tweet through for about a week or so about this, if I'm honest, and it was more around the academy rugby system in particular, and like how I'm going to anger Simon, I'm sure, but just how well connected they stay with people that used to be part of their organization and actually the impact that might have on those players. I'm not saying you have to stay in contact with everyone, but actually that can have huge impact upon their bounce back ability, their resilience, that parts of their life. Actually just a simple reach out, I think would be like something I would be thinking about. Yeah, I've just pressed your button.

Simon Ursell [00:42:08]:
Pro sport academies. Yeah, find them.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:11]:
But it's interesting and I've experienced it like having left Bath on pretty average terms. I don't care how well you play, I'm never picking you again. But then the alumni stuff and connecting up with people and has been really significant for me, to be honest. And being like, I now see that place completely differently and it's definitely been helpful for me. I was just thinking then when we do like the summer parties and things like that, but actually people will come back. Used to be part of the organization, but almost extending that invite out to other people is like, we have people.

Simon Ursell [00:42:49]:
Coming who've left, come to our parties.

James rutter [00:42:52]:
I love that. Definitely.

Simon Ursell [00:42:53]:
That's great. Not many, and we wouldn't necessarily have an invite, but they quite often say, can I come? Especially if they're fairly recently moving on and they just want to come and see their friends.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:04]:
Yeah, their family.

Simon Ursell [00:43:07]:
I use the word love a lot.

James rutter [00:43:08]:
Right. Nice.

Simon Ursell [00:43:10]:
I mean, I sign off a lot of my emails, peace and love, which I think people find very pretentious, and this sort of gray haired old man using phrases like that. But I'm an old hippie, so I'd make no apologies for it. But I think it's important to show love and use that word and to not be and not to think that it's some. I don't know, some people, I think, think it's weak or I don't know what it is, but I think it's a lot of strength in love.

James rutter [00:43:35]:
Yeah, absolutely.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:36]:
What have you heard? I know you talk about the storytelling and the people. What have you heard from the people in your organization about the impact of the organization? Give me some examples of stuff where we've had this organization saved my life type conversation. I don't want to trump you and make you have to have one even better than that. But is it something you're hearing.

James rutter [00:44:01]:
On the storytelling stuff? You do hear some incredible people just get up and blow you away with what they say. There was a recent one, there was one of our shop team who was kind of transitioning in terms of gender and just spoke about the incredible support they'd had from the team in the shop and how they made them help them kind of just feel that it was okay, even kind of helped them fill out the forms to change names and all this kind of stuff. And just, they felt, as a result of that, just able to be who they felt they really were. For me, I was properly floored by that one, partly because they told it all lovely in such a beautiful way, but also that that team had been so supportive, so that was a great one. Somebody else, not in a storytelling scenario, just in a completely separate kind of context, just said, oh, I feel like I've become a better person since I've been working at cook. And I think that is almost the most you can ask for.

Simon Ursell [00:45:08]:
That's so lovely. Yeah, that would really make my day.

James rutter [00:45:11]:
Yeah. And I almost think that's, like, the goal, isn't it, for everybody? If everybody can go away and say, I think I've become a better person since I worked here, then you've done your job type thing.

Simon Ursell [00:45:23]:
Yeah. That would be some of the best feedback I'd ever want to hear.

James rutter [00:45:27]:
Yeah. And it come from a very unexpected source as well, I got to say. So it's just like, yeah, that was great. I was thinking about love when we're talking about love, because there's a great. And I recommended the knowledge project. There's a great interview with Alan Malali, who is the CEO of.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:50]:
Was.

James rutter [00:45:51]:
And this just surprised me because I didn't know much about him. You just know. So. But his whole thing is like love in business. But what was most interesting about it, which I think is really relevant to this idea of bounce backability and kind of, if you like building resilient organizations, was how it was built on, if you like, radical transparency. And so he went in. He's an engineer by training, I think, from Boeing. So his engineering background worked at Boeing, then moved to Ford, but he brought in for his global, kind of, whatever they are, department heads, country heads, they'd have a weekly call, a bi weekly call, 30 or 40 of them on the call, and everybody literally submitted their.

James rutter [00:46:35]:
This is, you know, their. Their ten things that are priorities for them. And then each week, just did a red, amber Green, scored. How's it going? And so he said, so they brought this in. They'd go on the call first week, all green, of course. And he said it took him about two months, however many months, before he got the first one that wasn't green. And he just, like, went, hallelujah. Finally, people see what this team is for.

James rutter [00:47:03]:
This team is to help us sort out each other's issues and problems. And if it's not clear where those issues and problems are, how can we help each other? How can we become a better? So I loved that all along. And then I went, as Russ knows, I climbed Kilimanjaro last year. And what we had to do on the day we woke up in the morning, first thing I had to do with the group who was climbing was a health check, which completely in the open, completely transparent. How's everybody doing on the health measures? And after which. After which, genuinely, they'd run through the list and it would be like I'm.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:37]:
Just imagining myself going, yeah, I'm fine, and then limping off. Exactly. And stopping 100 yards of the mountain, exhausted.

James rutter [00:47:44]:
And they're doing, like, oxygen tests. They're doing this stuff. They're asking, you've been number one's number two. So everybody get a cheer when you say you've been number two. But again, it was just that sense of transparency and that if we don't know, if anybody's struggling, how on earth can we kind of lean in and help? I took this back as something for work and for Cook. How can we have that same level of, if you like, radical transparency that everybody feels able to bring to the table? Start the week, the month, whatever it is, here's where we are. This is where my problems are. Because that takes out so much of the baggage of feeling like you're failing or feeling like things aren't going well.

James rutter [00:48:24]:
If you can come with that approach. That feels really powerful to me.

Simon Ursell [00:48:29]:
Yeah. Just to echo your thoughts there. Everything you're talking about fueling my biases. Bit like rusty. But also, I'd like my kids to work at cook. I think it sounds like a really wonderful place. So we kind of need to wind up there.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:48]:
Well, you haven't said the word transference yet. I'm just waiting.

Simon Ursell [00:48:51]:
I've said it once. Have you? Yeah, but only on purpose. So, yeah, we've done one. Bingo. It's been really insightful. Cook does sound wonderful. And you're obviously doing some amazing. So.

Simon Ursell [00:49:06]:
Yeah, really, really impressed.

James rutter [00:49:09]:
Right back at you.

Simon Ursell [00:49:10]:
Okay, come on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:11]:
Thank you.

Simon Ursell [00:49:12]:
But, yeah, Rusty, did you want to sum up?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:15]:
No, look, it's been great. Loads of. I knew we'd get meta quite early. I've enjoyed it. I'm fascinated that we both ended up in a kind of a similar, relatively spiritual place. And, yeah, look, keep up the great work, both of you, from me.

Simon Ursell [00:49:32]:
Back out. You're rusty.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:34]:
Over and out.

Simon Ursell [00:49:35]:
Great to meet you. Bye.

James rutter [00:49:36]:
Great pod.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:39]:
Well, that was pretty cool. We got a little bit meta at times.

Simon Ursell [00:49:41]:
It was cool. Yeah. What a great guy. I mean again, another amazing guest.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:47]:
Yeah, you were getting all dreamy and talking about love and stuff.

Simon Ursell [00:49:50]:
Yeah, well love is good. Love is love. I mean I just think it's so important and people don't like to talk about it. I feel a bit uncomfortable. I don't know why.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:58]:
Well, why don't you talk about it now? I'm assuming it was one of your favorite moments.

Simon Ursell [00:50:02]:
Yeah, absolutely. Well, love is a big thing. I mean, if people feel love, if you feel love, it's just going to make you more bouncy. You're going to be more resilient if you feel cared for and appreciated and loved. I mean it's just a wonderful word and I think we don't use it enough.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:17]:
I appreciate you sharing that with us.

Simon Ursell [00:50:19]:
Love you, Rusty.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:20]:
Thank you.

James rutter [00:50:20]:
Love you too.

Simon Ursell [00:50:21]:
Thanks, mate.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:22]:
Yeah, and I guess one of my big things really was the happiness survey and I guess I've heard about it and thought about it but just the way they just said everything is built on relationships. Like. Well of course it is.

Simon Ursell [00:50:34]:
Yeah. But it's just not acknowledged. I mean, I guess when she think about it it's obvious but it's not intentional, is it? We're not intentionally working on that enough say, yeah, I'm going to try and work more intentionally around those relationships even more than I'm doing now I think because it's pretty inspiring stuff.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:55]:
Yeah. And again, just reflecting upon people I speak to are unhappy in what they do and it's their relationships. It's actually my boss doesn't know this about me or they've done this or actually I don't have clarity on this or I don't feel supported in this area and kind of seems obvious.

Simon Ursell [00:51:13]:
It does. And it's interesting to. Claire Murphy, you there? Your face just changed when you started talking about you looked sad.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:20]:
Yeah. Felt sad.

Simon Ursell [00:51:21]:
Yes. Sad. Can I do my 2nd 1 second? Go for it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:25]:
My second one is I'm just going to use the word gatherings way more. And just that getting together of people, the real intention around it definitely made me think about the summer party at TG. Yeah. Just like how we do that. And again, I think a lot of people are wrestling with this in the hybrid world and I just also been with a couple of teams before Christmas and just reminded me of the energy and you can close your eyes and you can hear it when those people get together. So probably going for more gatherings in 2024.

Simon Ursell [00:51:58]:
Yeah, I'm with you there. I love a gathering. That's absolutely superb. I mean, my other one, his raw talent program, where they're helping people out of really difficult situations like being in prison, those kind of things. Is that superb? And I love the fact that that is all about their local community, about society as a whole. With the idea being that you build your local community, you help support society, it's going to make your organization much more resilient because you're engaged with your local community. It's just so important and overlooked. And if you want to be selfish about it and cook definitely aren't being selfish about it.

Simon Ursell [00:52:40]:
If you want to be selfish about it, it's going to help your business achieve its ambitions, because you're going to have a pool of people that really want to work with you, that really value you, that are very loyal to you and are going to give you their absolute most. So why wouldn't you do it? It's all good.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:56]:
Yeah, there's no benefit to not doing it. And it made me think again. Of course, we're connecting up the pods and seeing some common themes, but Mustafa's two by two, which you love. Again, just having that awareness of who when.

Simon Ursell [00:53:10]:
I do love it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:11]:
Yeah, who, when? Why do people need real support? And again, that's just a punch in the face for me because my preference is to go low support, probably not as high support as I should. So I really enjoyed him sharing that and I'm glad you've had a great time in this windowless room.

Simon Ursell [00:53:31]:
He's pretty grim in here, but at least the acoustics are pretty good, I hope, anyway, what a great start to the year. Another great pod. Really enjoyed it. Love to you, love to the listeners. See you all soon.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:44]:
Much love back at you. Over and out. Thanks so much for joining us on the bands back building podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you want to reach out to us, Simon, where can they reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:53:56]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursul. U-R-S for sugar e l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:03]:
TikTok. No, not really. LinkedIn. Russell, anshore, and then the same on Twitter. But please ignore all my political thoughts.

Simon Ursell [00:54:11]:
Yeah, second that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:12]:
Over and out.