Inside the World of Professional Rugby: Rich Bryan on Transition and Resilience | Episode 13

Today we speak to former professional rugby player, Rich Bryan. Having experienced the highs and lows of professional rugby (including having Rusty as a teammate at Bath), Rich’s playing career was ended by a difficult knee injury at the age of 30, resulting in a challenging career change that would test his resilience and mental well-being.

In 2011 Rich joined the Rugby Players Association (RPA) - the representative body and trade union for current and former elite male and female rugby players in England, and for the past 10 years he has held the position of Player Welfare Director. As well as advising members on legal issues, he also leads numerous player welfare-related programmes across a broad range of issues including head injuries, agents, insurance and mental well-being support.   

Rich shares his journey with us, and the wisdom he has gained through setbacks faced during his career, which he now uses in his work to advise and support within the professional ruby world.

In this episode:

08:26 Struggles with identity, on and off the pitch.

41:15 Reflecting on the challenges that come with transitions from professional sports. 

47:24 Facing new experiences, and navigating uncertainty with teamwork.

58:27 Importance of leadership in creating a positive environment.

01:02:04 The importance of strong support and resilience during transition.

You can connect with Rich Bryan here:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/rich-bryan-5a759412

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here:

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the bounce back ability podcast. The podcast explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:08]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on. Hi. Welcome to the podcast. Rusty, who we got coming on today?

Simon Ursell [00:00:16]:
Hi, Rich Brian. Thought I'd just bring in one of my mates just to make it

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:19]:
easier for us, really. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. No. I'm excited to meet him, though. He's got a cool job.

Simon Ursell [00:00:26]:
Yeah. So, and and maybe you should tell him a few times in the, podcast that he's got a cool job as well just to reaffirm that for him because his job often sounds quite stressful to me. It's, fairly responsive. He's currently, RPA and helping support rugby players, both male and female across the country and with all the kind of trials and tribulations and things that go on as a professional sportsman historically. So I played with him a very long time ago in the nineties at Bath. He was training to be a solicitor then and subsequently did a bit of work, in the in the world of lawyers and that type of stuff. So I'm really interested as well in, like, his experiences at rugby. I think you did 2 or 3 ACLs, I can never remember.

Simon Ursell [00:01:08]:
He was a good player, he's a great leader, and so all of that times it gets a bit like me where you're playing or you're not playing. So yeah I'm just really curious and I actually, funnily enough, probably haven't unpacked that much of this stuff with him so this is a great excuse for me to to do that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:25]:
Well, good. I could be a gooseberry and hang out with you guys. I'm quite excited to do it. Let's get him on.

Simon Ursell [00:01:31]:
This is your captain speaking, working aboard BA flight 582 from Bristol to Alicante. Simon, have you got your headphones on?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:38]:
I have got my headphones on. I'm quite disappointed you 2 don't, but, you know, I'm doing what I'm told because I'm a good person. And we know the microphones are an issue for me, so this is my security blanket. I can hear what yours well, what the, what the what the listeners can hear. And, yeah, it's working nicely.

Simon Ursell [00:01:54]:
Brilliant. And that was probably our quickest start ever. We only had one SIM card issue. The microphones are working. Yeah. Probably 3 minutes max to get us going.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:02]:
Yeah. And even something as clever as this that is basically foolproof, I bought some new kit and the SIM card just didn't work. So there we are. But I'm gonna go back to Luke's podcast and be all mindful and chilled.

Simon Ursell [00:02:16]:
Yeah. And we're not calling it mindful, but that's cool. In in the room today, Rich Brian, how are you doing, mate? You alright?

Rich Bryan [00:02:24]:
I'm very well. Thanks. How are you?

Simon Ursell [00:02:25]:
I'm good. Thank you, sir. How many press ups have you done today?

Rich Bryan [00:02:27]:
I've done no press ups today.

Simon Ursell [00:02:29]:
So how many press ups have you done?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:30]:
I've done 10 press ups today.

Simon Ursell [00:02:32]:
Have you done 10?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:33]:
I've done 10. Yeah. Wednesday is weights and press ups day. Oh, yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:02:37]:
Yeah. 1020.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:40]:
But I don't know. I think Rusty wants a badge. Would you recommend, Rick?

Rich Bryan [00:02:43]:
Yeah. That's a badge.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:43]:
Let's create one badge. Let's make a badge for for Rusty Frisbie.

Simon Ursell [00:02:46]:
Anyway, welcome, everyone. Rich Brian, great friend, brilliant rugby player. If he if I had his mindset, I'd have been a brilliant rugby player as well. If he'd had my skill set, it'd have been even better. We appreciate you coming on the pod, obviously, actually really interested to talk about, I guess, the the bounce back ability requires probably as a professional sportsman and some of the implications of that. And then also, obviously, now you are, the the main man at the RPA. Now Damien's finally gone on a full holiday. Why is she kicking me out

Rich Bryan [00:03:22]:
of my man at the RPA. Is Christian

Simon Ursell [00:03:24]:
the main man?

Rich Bryan [00:03:24]:
Christian is our general secretary elected general secretary.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:27]:
So do you wanna because I don't actually know. Do you wanna do you wanna give us a bit of background on what you're currently doing and and what

Rich Bryan [00:03:33]:
that is? Sure. I'm I'm the player welfare director of the Rugby Player Association, which is the, player representative body for professional and elite players, I should say, in in England, men and women. Brilliant, Tom. So I've been doing that role for 10 years. It is unbelievably broad, incredibly broad. No 2 days tend to be alike. And, so I'm involved in, helping players from a legal point of view representation. Might be on players from a player welfare point of view, obviously.

Rich Bryan [00:04:07]:
So that might be look after player interest and protecting players and supporting players and all kinds of manner of different areas that might be brain health is is also a massive area for the sport at the moment. But I also help overseeing the, we have a player development programme which is called the game line programme. So we have members of our team out working in premiership clubs with the red roses, women's team. We're supporting players in their lives as professional, sportsmen and women.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:04:38]:
So bounce back ability has got to be something you think about quite a bit then?

Rich Bryan [00:04:43]:
Yeah. Because it's something actually we I might always recognize it as such, but I guess it's something we're dealing with, either in in our ourselves, our team, or within the individuals and and teams we are supporting and helping, on on a daily basis. We we have approximately, just over 600 current playing members at the moment and a cohort of retired players as well. So, yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:06]:
Oh, that's interesting. So so you said, no typical day is the same, say, as a challenge then. What's typical day like?

Rich Bryan [00:05:13]:
Typical day. It it's it's that's a very good one actually. Well, I currently work from home, for example, but it might be I might be involved in club visits. It might be, for example, at at the moment, what we're working on at the moment is the professional game partnership, for example. Yeah. So we have involved in that in the future of English professional men's rugby. And it's, ensuring that the players play a part in that, are represented in part of that. So that might be involved in negotiations, discussions around that.

Rich Bryan [00:05:46]:
It might be, helping players because they've got an issue. It might be a contractor issue. It might be an issue with their agent and some advice around that. It could be supporting the team in other ways. We run a, confidential counselling service, so it might be helping to signpost players towards that. It's really it's really varied. It's really varied.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:08]:
So that sounds really important. And so hopefully I'm totally aware of myself, but then I'm not a professional I wouldn't be necessarily, but it's good.

Simon Ursell [00:06:17]:
No. I mean, who knows with all the weight training you're doing, Simon, that your best days may be ahead of you.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:23]:
No. No. There's there's I have no goal for my weight training, Rusty. I just lift some weights.

Simon Ursell [00:06:29]:
Nice. I was thinking about so how would you introduce yourself? So I guess, one of the things I often think about with the bounce back ability is like identity. So we both used to be rugby players together Yes. And we probably thought ourselves as rugby players, although probably thought I was like head of parties as well. And then but also, like, you've you are a trained lawyer. Yes. You've got you've you're a husband, you're a father, like, I'm just curious, like, what's got you to this point? And then I'm just I am just interested because obviously you work with lots of players who are rugby players and that might be like the primary source of their identity. I'm just curious.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:05]:
I I

Rich Bryan [00:07:05]:
I how long have we been friends, do you reckon? Well What

Simon Ursell [00:07:08]:
would you mean by chance?

Rich Bryan [00:07:09]:
Yeah. For competitors to start with and where we for

Simon Ursell [00:07:12]:
Well, even the drop competitors is interesting. Sorry. I just spoke to a player the other day. He's a pro player who who's a who was at Bath, and he was best friends with another player throughout his whole life. And then he said we had a moment of clarity where we sat in a coffee shop, and I just turned to him and went, has rugby made his enemies? Like, how have the coaches made us compete against these other so much that we now do not see each other's friends? And he said we had about half, you know, like, half a day just chatting about that.

Rich Bryan [00:07:41]:
Well, the the reason why I asked questions, I I don't think we've probably never had this conversation. That's what perhaps we have around identity.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:47]:
I'm feeling like a gooseberry here, but gone. This is gonna

Rich Bryan [00:07:49]:
be exciting. So we we would have first met in I'm gonna say No.

Simon Ursell [00:07:53]:
No. No.

Rich Bryan [00:07:54]:
No. No. It wasn't. That's actually where I met my wife. That's a different story. 97, I think. 97. You were just out of university.

Rich Bryan [00:08:04]:
I was probably a bit in awe of you because you were super confident.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:07]:
You were in awe of Rusty.

Rich Bryan [00:08:08]:
Oh, yeah. I know. I know. Exactly. This is this is the in the era when no one wore boots other than black boots, he wore white boots. Did he? Wow.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:16]:
He's a white boot wearer.

Rich Bryan [00:08:17]:
I didn't know. That's Me

Simon Ursell [00:08:18]:
and Steph Jones, shout out to Steph Jones, I think probably started rocking them in about 1994. Mhmm. That was ahead of the game. So so

Rich Bryan [00:08:26]:
that was that was the introduction. I was not in you know, and he was a really confident individual, ridiculously fit, didn't seem to work particularly hard to get that fitness, which is always really, really annoying. But as he said, you know, as he alluded to earlier, he once said not long ago, you know, if I'd had your kind of work right and you'd have my skills, we would have played for England. And at the end, it's the best backhanded compliment I think I've ever had. I like to have some skills. So so was that so that was where we met. And, yeah, identity wise is really interesting because I for for for a lot of time when I was a professional for 11 years, I kind of walked against this identity of of solely being seen as as as a rugby player. But at university, that's what I was known as.

Rich Bryan [00:09:13]:
I was a rich rugby player. My wife's friends knew me as a rugby player. Yeah. All that kind of stuff. And as soon as and I pulled against that because I I as you said, I, I was trained to become a lawyer at the same time, all those kind of things. And I thought, there's more strings to my bone in this. But when I then retired and actually became a trainees' listener, I kinda craved that identity. It's because that that that just disappeared.

Rich Bryan [00:09:38]:
And I felt, yeah, that that was a point of of difference. And now I'm in an office, actually just around the corner from where I sat now. And as as yeah. I I I just felt that real sort of identity. I was almost craving for that rugby player kind of identity, which had gone. And I felt that, I felt it became a bit boring after that because it's difficult. Boring is everywhere. Everyone everyone likes to not everyone, but but people like to talk to you as a rugby player.

Rich Bryan [00:10:07]:
Okay. What do you do for a living? I'm a rugby player. Wow. What do you do as what do you do as a living? I'm a solicitor. Oh, that was a genuine reaction I got on tradies.

Simon Ursell [00:10:18]:
So Lester is very close to accountant.

Rich Bryan [00:10:20]:
So so so

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:22]:
there are definitely interesting So

Simon Ursell [00:10:23]:
when I sell

Rich Bryan [00:10:24]:
them to play welfare director, I just said, oh, that's what what's that about? So, so, yeah, that I don't know. So that loss of identity and I I I remember the day I retired or officially retired. And I was at the training ground, and I finished my Cripple up in Leeds. And and I just really vividly being at the training ground. Preseason training was underway. And I actually I was a bit strange. I quite like pre season training. And the lads were going out on the pitch, and I was walking out the gate.

Rich Bryan [00:10:53]:
And it was very vivid, this kind of idea of, you know, your usefulness is kind of done. Because Can

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:00]:
you still remember that image?

Rich Bryan [00:11:01]:
That's the. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember it felt like it felt just like the felt like the bus felt like the bus is is kind of leaving, and you're not on it. And whilst you're on that bus, you were really in really important to that bus being and it kind of chucked you off the back. That was no one's fault, by the way. I was injured. And my knees let me down for one final time.

Rich Bryan [00:11:23]:
And and the club at Leeds tried really hard to kind of soften that as best they could. It's Joe Lancaster's coach at the moment at the time. And, yeah, I remember he invited me out on a I I was gonna have to retire, and the preseason just started, and he invited me out for a preseason meal with all the lads. And his words his his words always stuck with me and go, yeah, it'll be a bit of closure for you. And I don't and that that burned with me for so long. Again, he was trying to be kind, but but I kind of bought against that and really sort of fought against that and and was quite bitter about that for a long time. I'd be I'd be, before I could talk about running and I've been fortunate and even stuck my knees, I've been able to run for 17 years. There's a particularly hard hill called Nightingale Valley in Bristol.

Rich Bryan [00:12:13]:
And it's I reckon it's the hardest hill to run off in Bristol. And for years

Simon Ursell [00:12:17]:
No challenge

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:17]:
to the list. There's anyone in Bristol. Harder hills. For years, if

Rich Bryan [00:12:21]:
I was struggling at that hill, I would I you gotta conjure kind of a motivating factor to get you up that hill. And it'd be Stuart Lancaster, tell it be, it's closure. I've never spoken to him or told him about that, but it was it was just kinda that was what get all the other things that you draw upon that you're kind of resentful about, and you were just to get you to the top of that hill to motivate you. That's one of those things. It just stuck with me for for, a good few years after I finished playing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:47]:
So that sounds like a Not

Rich Bryan [00:12:48]:
17 years after I've started.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:49]:
No. You're over it now,

Rich Bryan [00:12:50]:
are you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:51]:
Okay. That's obviously really stuck with that sort of burn into your mind. And, you know, like you say, Stuart, trying to be kind.

Rich Bryan [00:12:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:58]:
Do you think that was good or bad then? Do you think it motivated you to do things, or do you think it actually held you back? Or

Rich Bryan [00:13:05]:
I I was it's strange because at the same time, I had in my mind that I didn't want to overstay my welcome as a rugby player because you'd sometimes and sometimes GC players sort of play. And I always remember someone who was actually a solicitor said to me, Robbie Fay, said just play Robbie for as long as you can. You're a long time retired. But I had in my mind, there was a there was a setback, but I wanted to retire at 32. That was in my mind. I want to retire at 32 and then get on with the rest of my life, and I think that's a decent innings. I have to retire at 30. And so yeah.

Rich Bryan [00:13:41]:
I just it it was it was no one's fault. It was just injury. And that's what happened. You gotta cope with it and deal with it. But it stuck around for quite quite a while. And but then you've got new challenges. And our challenges at the time were I've got to move down from Leeds. My wife is heavily pregnant with my first child.

Rich Bryan [00:14:01]:
I've got to change city, change start a new career and and all at the same time. So I didn't really have time at that instant to process it. It's only later when you have that time to sort of process what we've been through because it was so in it was right injured retirement. Right. Clarify what your job is. Yes. What's your career gonna be? Move city, have a child, or or in the space of a few months. It was it was a bit porkers at the time.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:30]:
Yeah. That sounds like a lot to deal with in a few months.

Rich Bryan [00:14:32]:
I mean

Simon Ursell [00:14:33]:
And I guess this is what you're helping players without just starting to write down there, like, your relation with a coach, whether you're selected, injury, like, there's just stuff all the time as a player where you're getting, like, punched in the face a little bit. You've trained all preseason, you get injured. You've you've played one game, you've played badly, you've been dropped. The coach doesn't speak to you for a very long period of time. Those are, you know, you have conversations that, like, where you just think there's a huge gap between what you think and what they think. Like Yeah. I just before we'd, like, delve into, like, I mean, your your role now, like, what are your experiences of that as a player, and how did you deal with those things where you needed to bounce back?

Rich Bryan [00:15:14]:
It was a series because you got all those different points. You say being selected, being dropped, being injured, ACL injuries, you know, took a long time to recover from, and 9 months out and then trying to get back to fitness, trying to get back in the team. I I just the thing is looking back is that the highs of your rugby career stay with you longer than the lows, but there are there are those lows. There are those points. How did I used to go? I used to work hard. Yeah. You get to I was really determined to try get back get back to fitness, get back in the team, And but I I do remember there's a there's a period at birth coming towards, the end of my time at birth. I've been there 4 years, I think.

Rich Bryan [00:16:04]:
And making the decision that I'm not getting enough of a crack of playing first year. Maybe that's what I'm gonna do. So I'm either gonna I I've gotta move. As as great as to be part of birth. I've gotta move, and that's gonna be kill or cure because either I start to play more, I'm gonna go and do my next whatever it is I need to do in life. So, I moved to Wales to try and get that, you know, that first more first team action on that, and it was it was great. It works out well

Simon Ursell [00:16:33]:
for me, but it could have

Rich Bryan [00:16:33]:
gone the other way. And till the till the club went bankrupt.

Simon Ursell [00:16:37]:
Oh, that's

Rich Bryan [00:16:37]:
a different story. That's a different club as well. But yeah. Yeah. And that has actually had a really relevant extreme relevance to me recently in in my job. But, yeah, how do how do I deal with them? I I probably like everyone like, everywhere we play, if you get dropped, you probably get a bit angry, and then you double your efforts. You get injured. You work really hard to to I remember when I did my ACL for the first time, I was like, right.

Rich Bryan [00:16:59]:
I'm just gonna use this period as positively as I can. I'm gonna go hit the gym hard, and I'm gonna come out a different player. I did come out a different player. I was massive. You know, and instead of actually probably doing my rehab as well as I might have done, I was probably spending too much time doing other things in the gym, and my I'm not gonna say effective, in fact, my knee went again, but it's it's that it was you kinda look back now years after you think, god, I could've done that so differently. But it's that it's that that Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:17:27]:
That's what I was that's what I was curious about. Like, who was helping? Who was helping us? Like, the other thing I was thinking about, did you see other people struggling? Yes. Because I actually had a really good Yes.

Rich Bryan [00:17:35]:
It did.

Simon Ursell [00:17:36]:
Exactly. I had a really good conversation with John Slighholm a couple of years ago where, because I really vividly remember Sligh too at that time had played for England,

Rich Bryan [00:17:44]:
Ben was

Simon Ursell [00:17:44]:
going to hatch away in Ireland, and I remember looking at him thinking, this guy's just circling, but I didn't know what to do or how to help. And I guess I guess that's where RPA and other things now fit in, but I didn't know. Like, I don't think anyone was helping us. Now I've had some reflections, and I was definitely having a good time in Pune Donah's and and the assembly where I met my wife so it worked out well but I do wonder if we were like medicating around some of the stresses and that just because I I just found it, like, it was tough.

Rich Bryan [00:18:15]:
It was it was, people were trying to help actually. And again, it's with hindsight you kind of, so so I'd I'd I'd had no problems with knees, knee injuries, anything like that. And I had my first so I went to went to Bridgend to play club rugby, then I went to regional rugby where I played for the Celtic warriors, that lasted a year. I'm diving into that in a in a moment. I went to the dragons, and I had never had any knee problems. And then I did my ruptured my ACL for the first time. And, worked really hard, as I said, to try and come back from that and come back, play a few months and then did it again. And it was devastating.

Rich Bryan [00:18:58]:
I remember, yeah, really really devastating. And my dad was in hospital at the time. I remember that and and my dad was the biggest supporter. And he was in hospital with heart problems at the time and I have to tell, you know, tell him that I've done my knee again. God, it's brutal. And we we, yeah, we had a bit of a support group because of other players. I remember Kevin Morgan was going through similar new at the same time and trying to support each other through rehab and whatever. But you're way you're not part of that bus that's kind of like I talked about earlier.

Rich Bryan [00:19:29]:
It's got not really part of that bus again. You're in the gym on your own on that cold January, February mornings working to to a goal which seems miles away, miles away. And and and the club there were people that was, one of the coaches, tried something from a psychological point of view. And eventually, they they they said my contract wasn't gonna be renewed, but the club tried to help me out. And they actually offered me a job or to work with a job at the club if you're thinking of use your legal background and what have you. And I I was I was almost offended. I remember being I remember being and actually, they could've cut my contract as well, and they didn't. They sort through to the end.

Rich Bryan [00:20:06]:
And they I know it's only hard you at the time, you you ask, what do you mean you offer me a job? No. I'm a rugby player. I'm 29 years old. I'm not finished. You know, I was, but it was just generally, I do think there are people out there who are trying to help but perhaps it wasn't as as formalized as or as or as the pathways to help weren't as obvious to the people. But we're talking, yeah, 20 years ago. So, yeah. But people were really quite kind and generous.

Rich Bryan [00:20:32]:
Just at the time, you don't necessarily see it because you're just so in that one track mind of I'm a professional player. That's what I do, my identity.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:20:39]:
That does speak to a sort of general principle around helping people, especially when with mental health things. I don't know what you guys think of this, but, I've certainly learned that you don't give people things to do. You don't say, you know, do you want a job? You really need to sign paste them to people that can help them if they're struggling, don't you? You've got to listen, be kind, but fundamentally, don't try and solve the problem for them. Yeah. Because you can't you you don't really know what's going on and that's really the job of somebody who's a who's a professional to deal with. Exactly. Is that something you come across now with in the with your role in the RPA?

Rich Bryan [00:21:17]:
Yeah. Because so so so we have pathways of support, a confidential candidate. So so so our team we have a team. Very, very lucky to have the team we have of player development managers who are working with the players and the clubs on a daily basis and build those relationships to get to know the players, and a real safety net, independent because some players will will go to a club doctor or physio, but some won't want to go to their club doctor or physio with issues. So so having that independent support then, we're we're we're blessed in having the team we have who are so dedicated to supporting those individuals and can then signpost to help with, you know, mental well-being, treatment support, whatever it is. Just having that path with that safety net is is really important and 20 years ago, we didn't have that. But I think that's something now with with the yeah. At the time, it was it was professional rugby, but not professional rugby as you don't necessarily recognize it now.

Rich Bryan [00:22:23]:
It was increasing I

Simon Ursell [00:22:24]:
think our, physio, Bath had an ultrasound machine, didn't he? And that was all he had. He had not entered any injury, broken bone, knees, the ultrasound machine.

Rich Bryan [00:22:33]:
As my wife as my wife's a physio, I'm not gonna comment on that as you can imagine. But but, yeah, it was it was the support networks and they're significantly greater than than they were. But, you know, the pressures on the players are arguably more from a younger age.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:22:52]:
Yeah. And it it I think just looking from afar, it seems like the pressure is pretty high. So you were telling a story earlier about being with, Stuart Lancaster, talking about resilience. Do you wanna share that one? Because I didn't ask a good story.

Rich Bryan [00:23:05]:
Yeah. Again, there's something I should probably speak to Stuart about, but, this is stuff No.

Simon Ursell [00:23:09]:
Go on.

Rich Bryan [00:23:09]:
Go on. It's it's it's it's not I'll

Simon Ursell [00:23:11]:
send it. I'll send the I'll send the podcast.

Rich Bryan [00:23:13]:
Yeah. It's an interesting it's because my my wife reminded me of it. It's more like it's stuck with those things that it's just those things that you remember. Like, players people talk to you, how do you remember that game? Join the list. Join the list. No. Or sometimes it was something like, do you remember this? Yeah. I remember this.

Rich Bryan [00:23:25]:
We had, it was it was unusual. We didn't all the other clubs have been had had a sort of formalized review process of of, throughout the year and and Stuart had that. And you were graded 1 to 5 on certain aspects of your professionalism. I I can't remember. Can't remember any of the other categories? All I know is I scored high. You'd be noticing you'd like to know Russ. A 5.

Simon Ursell [00:23:51]:
Apart from on skill, have you got a 1?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:53]:
Of course,

Rich Bryan [00:23:53]:
you did. And and I I think I scored 2 or 3 or something. I don't know if I have resilience. And and bear in mind, this was this was my last year of playing in those my last year of playing at the time, and I had recovered from a a second ACL to be there. And I balked at it because he said, like, I don't

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:11]:
You sound like you're still a little bit a little bit salty about it now.

Rich Bryan [00:24:16]:
What do you mean? I don't know. I think you might be. No. I was no. It was no. Because it had a it had a point because, I saw myself and I I I argued with him because I I said, well, yeah. I seem to be pretty resilient. I've come through 2 ACLs near end of my career to be here, to play it, to actually be here.

Rich Bryan [00:24:33]:
Anyway, I'm not reaching the heights I want to at the moment, but I can't and he saw it slightly differently. He said, yeah, but you're you're and and I had this I joined Leeds at that point because Leeds had been relegated since before from the premiership of the championship, and and a lot of players have had left. And so I saw this as my opportunity to get back to that level of, like, they're gonna get promoted, gonna be part of that, and and play prematurely or big. But I think my desire to do that burn so bright and strongly that actually when I wasn't being selective because I wasn't being honest, I I wasn't excuse me, in the form I needed to be coming back with my injury, that he said, yeah. But in training, when you're not picked or or something happens, you really show it. And you really show that you can and and then you perhaps you're not in training. You're you're perhaps more disruptive than you realize because you you you're the as a team running, you're the person who put yourself back in training and and making a nuisance of yourself, and that doesn't help the team. And and, again, it's one of the things you reflect on actually realize that yeah.

Rich Bryan [00:25:39]:
So so resilience had that it's a different thing. Yeah. I'd I'd shown resilience to be there. I've got that. But then then the resilience was the day to day basis of then coping with not being selected, things not going your way, was something he highlighted. And I think he he had a point.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:53]:
Yeah. That's I mean, it's fascinating, isn't it? It just shows what huge, broad topic the word resilience covers. Definition is important, isn't it? You know, how do you define resilience? How do you define bounce back ability, Rusty and I? We don't know, do we?

Simon Ursell [00:26:09]:
Yeah. And and and even got me thinking there a little bit about, like, yeah, who who helped you with any of these skills? Like, let's be honest. You know? And you because because similarly, you were part of a a period. You must have been part of Lambbridge United when we were at Bath when

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:24]:
I was

Rich Bryan [00:26:24]:
the captain of

Simon Ursell [00:26:25]:
Lambbridge. Of Lambbridge United. So there wasn't there was a team. So there's at times, there's a group of players and we weren't getting picked for the 1st team and and we had our we had our own bebs, and I think we might have gone out drinking, wearing bebs. I think

Rich Bryan [00:26:37]:
I've still got my beb.

Simon Ursell [00:26:38]:
Still got your beb. Your bib.

Rich Bryan [00:26:39]:
I kept

Simon Ursell [00:26:39]:
saying that the sauce was right. And it actually wasn't I don't know if it was that helpful. Do you know what

Rich Bryan [00:26:44]:
I mean? Like No. It was it was a team within a team. We we we almost created because I was my last and this is really what led me to to to leaving birth, I've been made, there was a more established second team fix list than there is now, it doesn't really exist. And I was I was captain of the of the United team, which is kind of not something perhaps you want, but we are it was ironically and and in my final season at birth, I I probably played the least first team rugby, but I was probably playing the best rugby that I played my whole entire time there. But because of the competition, just couldn't really get a look at which made me think, right, I'm either gonna stay here and accept that this is it, or I'm gonna have to move and and and try them. That's why I left. And and it worked out well for me doing it. But but, yeah, we we had this Did

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:32]:
you enjoy that 2nd team rugby were playing? It sounds like you were playing well. We had

Rich Bryan [00:27:37]:
a really success season. We we had a a team

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:39]:
of youngsters

Rich Bryan [00:27:39]:
a team of youngsters with the old most of older players that are dropping down and what have you. But we play some great stuff, we play some great games, and we and it was good fun and we we almost established the identity which wasn't frowned upon or or discouraged. Lambridge United, we were wearing the bibs in training, so we were running into the opposition or whatever. And and it was kind of bit of, yeah, it was it was actually quite fun. But then I realized that there's only so much so only so many times I can play a second team fixture and get excited about it. I gotta move on. And that's also what I did. But I don't think it was helpful.

Rich Bryan [00:28:11]:
To us, it was and and we actually I remember the I think the first team, yeah, were struggling at the time as well, and we will go out on a

Simon Ursell [00:28:17]:
social and I were smashing it. We were having way too much fun.

Rich Bryan [00:28:21]:
We were going out on a social, and we had first team going, oh, can we can we come with you? Can we can we and I asked him quietly. Can we come with you tonight? Oh, we might let you. It should play through the yeah. It was bizarre. Sometimes I

Simon Ursell [00:28:32]:
think one of the most freeing moments is when you get handed the bib and you get told to play how you want against the first team.

Rich Bryan [00:28:40]:
I think it's one

Simon Ursell [00:28:41]:
of the, like, you go Yeah. Oh, last I can, like, express myself on a rugby pitch. So sad. I remember Biggie and Vicks used to talk about that at Yorkshire all the time. Like, they used to love when they were, like, playing against the first team and causing hassle for the first team, but, of course, eventually, the coach gets annoyed with

Rich Bryan [00:29:00]:
it. Yeah. And I I I was you know, and and that's what I was doing at Leeds. I was getting stuck in. I was trying to kinda I was trying to prove a point because I thought, anyway, I do this on the training field. I was trying to show how much this means. How much this means

Rusty Earnshaw [00:29:10]:
is this showing that to? Yourself?

Rich Bryan [00:29:13]:
The coaches, the teammates, myself. Yeah. Probably. But but just trying to make that impact. I I I I one of my teammates was was Ken and Myles. He was 18 at the time. I was 30 years old. I've talked I've talked to him about it since because I had a fight with him in training.

Rich Bryan [00:29:29]:
Yeah. I was 30 years old. That's what I'm doing.

Simon Ursell [00:29:33]:
Yeah. Let's just clarify. You're in a fight with an 18 year old boy.

Rich Bryan [00:29:36]:
He might be 19.

Simon Ursell [00:29:38]:
But Keenan's interesting, wasn't it? Because he's obviously gone on post road b and and studied this and did he get a PhD in

Rich Bryan [00:29:43]:
He's a he's a member of our welfare advisory board, that we have

Simon Ursell [00:29:46]:
And around what what types of area? And, obviously, all in scared about this fight you had for them. No. No. 18 slash 19.

Rich Bryan [00:29:53]:
I got I got I got caught to one side by Daryl Powell and the coaches going, really? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fair point. Yeah. Not cool.

Simon Ursell [00:30:01]:
What's what's Kean doing? What so how's how's that working?

Rich Bryan [00:30:04]:
Yes. We have a welfare advisory board, which is something we established a few years ago, because it's one of these things because it's so broad. The way we do is so broad that we need it. Yeah. We don't have the answers to everything. So we have a panel of medics, psychologists, researchers, sports scientists who we can refer things to and ask and, and meet with them to discuss and and that's sort of independent of us, but they can go and give their views. There's a wider views tapping into that wider knowledge base, of, yeah, former players, current players as well. And it just gives us a different dynamic.

Rich Bryan [00:30:43]:
It's very easy in this in this role to get stuck in in a certain mindset. Sometimes it's difficult to because there's so much going on, so much you're working on, to actually be able to take a a moment to sort of see the bigger picture.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:55]:
And that's really important, having that kind of talk. Sound important. Can I just take you back? Just something I wanted to pick you up on there. You said you're having too much fun.

Simon Ursell [00:31:03]:
And Rich was having too much fun.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:05]:
No. You said we were having too much fun.

Simon Ursell [00:31:07]:
Having too much fun.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:08]:
Yeah. So That was the problem. That I mean, and and I hope this isn't a cliche too much or I'm gonna embarrass myself here, but, when I look at basketball and cricket and the emphasis is on fun, isn't it? I mean, that's what they say. It's about, and they've just been hammered in India but I think that's possibly a good thing in a way because they're really committed to how they want to play. Win or lose, they're gonna keep going or they're getting lambasted in the press a bit but I think they're gonna stick with it because it's too much fun. How how how much do you think success because this is I have a fundamental issue around prosport generally with it being monetized and all about results and not about the individuals and the players and it be I mean, sport is a game. It's supposed to be fun. I mean, isn't that the whole underlying point of playing a game for fun? And the the England cricket team seem to have sort of said, actually, we're gonna have fun.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:07]:
And they've and plus they're in prosport is in the business of entertainment. As somebody who hasn't played prosport, watches prosport, I'm quite keen to be entertained if I'm paying £200 to watch a game at Twickenham. I'm quite keen to be entertained and England just beat Ireland in a very entertaining fashion at Twickenham. And I'm thinking, well, if they were having fun and losing, they get hammered in the press. I think, personally, I'd love that. But what what's your what's your view on that? Because I I I guess I'm taking issue with the too much fun phrase. I mean, can you have too much fun playing a game?

Rich Bryan [00:32:45]:
You make a very valid point there because, yeah, for for 11 years and and that's probably a similar time for you, longer played played professional rugby for a job. I mean, that's that's bonkers in itself as a as a job. I I remember actually one of my wife's friends come in and say, okay. So you play rugby for a job. Yeah. Do you you get paid to play rugby? I said, yeah. And it's just kinda kind of that does it. So, yeah, it's it's but you're right.

Rich Bryan [00:33:15]:
It's yeah. They get they get they're not sometimes the way they play for losing. But ultimately, yeah, it's it's it's it's a game and we we have a we have, according to academy induction day for the 1st year. Because there's loads of different transitions within into professional sport and in Western professional sport and ultimately, as discussed, got a lot out of professional sport. And we have an academy induction that we would bring together all of the 1st year professional players who have just left school called 18. We bring them all together for a day to talk about some of the pitfalls of being a professional entrepreneur because as soon as you become a professional entrepreneur to a degree you could be a target for certain things. You know, social media, blackmail for young players that happens. All those kind of things just to be really aware of a personal you know, nights at you know, all the thing you know, just just being really aware that you are a professional.

Rich Bryan [00:34:16]:
These these are young lads. But the other part of that is also to remind you of the opportunities and and what a great, you know, profession you're going into. It's a really difficult balance because you have to be that these these lads and girls are leaving, say, leaving a school environment Most time a college environment and they're going the next day, and it's not quite that chance because they've already been part of an academy structure normally, but then the next day you are a professional rugby player in a very professional, environment.

Simon Ursell [00:34:49]:
Simon's gonna pick you up on her professional in a second. Oh, elite elite professional. Yeah.

Rich Bryan [00:34:51]:
And elite.

Simon Ursell [00:34:53]:
Professional. Yeah.

Rich Bryan [00:34:53]:
And elite. Well,

Simon Ursell [00:34:55]:
you you're definitely in an environment.

Rich Bryan [00:34:57]:
But you put you've gone from being a school kid to being a an elite stroke professional rugby player.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:05]:
Well, you did do that, Rusty. I'd I'd I'd say you did do that. You know?

Simon Ursell [00:35:09]:
Yeah. I went to uni, which helped. And by the way, just quickly, having been to your RPA day, I think it's an amazing day. I actually think it's just helpful to pre mortem some of the problems that are gonna happen. And actually one of the things that is really impactful around learning is emotion and like I remember being on that day like, like, my mouth wide open, pretty stressed out, listening to some stories and thinking, I wouldn't want that to happen to me.

Rich Bryan [00:35:34]:
And and we have, Yeah. And and and we so we get former players or or current players actually to come back and talk about their experiences. So, you know, last year with Danny Cipriani, who had some very interesting stories to tell. Dylan Hartley previously, Elliott Stuttgart, Kenny. Yeah. All that kind of play just about their experiences. And so so the players who are there sat there kind of, you know, actually, whatever you go through, 9 to 10, these things things that people have gone through before. And by the way, if you need support, you need help, we are here.

Rich Bryan [00:36:09]:
You obviously have a support network or you you you you have a support network of parents, coaches, friends, because but but we are here as well, and we're here to be every step of the journey. And also when that journey stops and a different journey takes over and the preparation for that. So that's that's what we're about. That's what we do.

Simon Ursell [00:36:30]:
I was gonna and, again, like, with, my with my Gen z, hat on, the lonely the loneliest, most anxious, most depressed, generations have lived on this planet. You know, that Where

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:42]:
where's that stat from?

Simon Ursell [00:36:43]:
From, my piece of paper and, my and, and I guess sport, like, exaggerated. We didn't have what they have now. Like, you know we didn't have the the social media stuff we didn't have the judgment didn't have the you know you know I didn't go on the the news edge and Marcus is on the front page and he's still a young lad really and but but in a good way, he's on the front page. But again, he's had lots of stuff where people have queried selection and

Rich Bryan [00:37:10]:
Online abuse, you know, players with online abuse for for missing

Simon Ursell [00:37:14]:
What are the themes? What are the themes that you're Yeah. What are the themes that are kind of causing issues for young people these days that you're having to then go, you know, put

Rich Bryan [00:37:29]:
really prevalent at the moment. As you say, that that's a pressure that we didn't have. The worst we had was reading the newspaper review. Yeah. Could they give me 6 out of 10? Could they give me 6

Simon Ursell [00:37:40]:
out of 10? Dick a tuck well, honestly. Like, get me great marks generally. So I was happy.

Rich Bryan [00:37:46]:
Top yourself. But that that was that was the biggest pressure you have. But in terms of in terms of that media, that that was probably the biggest pressure you had. Now you've got that instant instant kind of feedback or or people think they have the right to go online and abuse someone. I mean it's it's incredible. And so actually, again, making sure that that players know there is somewhere they can come and get support and help. I mean, the the the whole thing I just find incredible that that that is the people in society think that is acceptable for someone to go online and abuse people. Yeah.

Rich Bryan [00:38:27]:
I find it my

Simon Ursell [00:38:27]:
It's less likely to happen in an office.

Rich Bryan [00:38:30]:
Yeah. But but it's it's the That's right. But you and that's the thing that pressure we talk about with players and and how how being a professional or elite player is different, or athlete anyway. Is do you have that instant feedback. You've got the result. You play on Saturday, you get selected. You've been training all week. Sorry.

Rich Bryan [00:38:48]:
You get selected. You play. You win or lose. You come in on the Monday. You get instant feedback. The video reviews. You've had social media. You've had someone in the press commenting on your performance.

Rich Bryan [00:38:59]:
And then then you get to go again the following week and again the following week. And it's just that cycle of of of yeah. That's that's a Judgments.

Simon Ursell [00:39:08]:
Judgement. Judge Feedback. Opinion.

Rich Bryan [00:39:11]:
Yeah. And then you leave that, and you're supported by the way, in terms of and you're told where to be and what to do. It's similar akin to the military in some respects. You have your your season plan, you have your your training plan, you know, what to wear at what point and be here and and do that. And then the bus moves on for whatever reason and you go into I I I I'm not trying to compare myself with the current rugby players in that way, but at 30 I walked into an office around the corner and and I was a trainee solicitor for the first time. I didn't know how to switch on the computer. I struggled to find the switch.

Simon Ursell [00:39:51]:
And was anyone wearing rugby boots?

Rich Bryan [00:39:53]:
Is anyone wearing rugby boots?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:54]:
Did he have socks

Rich Bryan [00:39:56]:
on? My my team my my my team were, that I joined was a constructional department about 80% women. And obviously

Simon Ursell [00:40:05]:
that was new to

Rich Bryan [00:40:06]:
you? That was that was complete and and, generally the first day I I was I was showing my desk and I was thinking, everyone's watching me. Everyone's watching me. Where's the switch to the computer? Where's the switch to the computer? I couldn't find it and I found it. Thank god for that. And then and then and then, I had, a lovely person who's my mentor, and she was really good and she was, you know, I was 30, she was a good few years younger than me as well. And so I've sent you an email to the introduction. Great. Okay.

Rich Bryan [00:40:36]:
Where are the emails? I got these icons a little bit. And and, you know, I picked up the phone first. I thought everyone's listening to the open plan office. Everyone's listening to me on on the phone. Everyone's listening. Yeah. It was all that kind of stuff. It's completely different.

Rich Bryan [00:40:47]:
And even even now, I kind of look back, oh my god. So that was the experience. And and, actually I started on the same day as another trainee. He was a professional kayaker. And and he's still there, actually, he's still there as a partner, but we we do laugh about that drinking. What what what are we doing walking in as trainees? So let's just go completely different environments and then and then surviving in that environment, which is which is interesting.

Simon Ursell [00:41:15]:
It just made me think a lot about transitions, really. So as people join businesses, people leave businesses, you know, as people have, you know, children, like, there's just always transitions in your life. I do I think, like, I would agree with you, like, I found those hard, probably. Yeah. I don't think I found retiring as hard as you. I can't remember the game, I can't remember the moment, but I've but I think that I would have benefited from more support like when we arrived at Bath when you were greeted but you weren't greeted you were told to you know come over there and earn the right type of stuff. Again, I think as and I'm sure it's something you're thinking a lot about, Simon, with all the stuff you're doing, you know, just helping people. Those transitions are probably, like, some of the most stressful challenging moments whatever.

Rich Bryan [00:41:56]:
Well, I I I remember because I before my role as as playwright director, I was a, player development manager. So I was one of those people working in the clubs. I worked at Bath and Irish, and there's a player, who I I struggled to connect with for a long time. And normally I find myself being able to connect with people quite easily. I I it took me years to work as a player. And well, good year because I was in a good couple of years. And eventually it dawned on me because I read an article about him. I read an article about and and in some ways, you know, they had come from a completely different environment, completely different social setup, completely different part of the country, and had this is good few years ago, so it's not recent.

Rich Bryan [00:42:49]:
So so at least, yeah, 12 years ago. But essentially, it kind of arrived in Bath, was put up in a really yeah. It was it was essentially right staying in, I think, the circus or somewhere in Bath, Completely alien environment. And and thing was about is that, you know, a lot of the players there at the time were probably private school kids. I've gone to private school as well. So so I I kind of I it was only when I read an article and he'd been at the club a good couple of years, I read about his background, his upbringing, the challenges he'd had. I kind of realized that I I haven't the reason I've been connecting is not is not him. It's me.

Rich Bryan [00:43:28]:
Just kinda yes. It's and then we talked about it and and we had a great relationship. And I really yeah. I couldn't understand why he wasn't turning. I put on courses or put on of put on, talks or things like that or or experiences and he wouldn't turn up. I get really frustrated. And then you kind of get to know the person, really get to know the person, and it just changed things completely. But that was just my perception and my kind of and that level of support is kind of where we get to a real granular level of kind of really trying to build real genuine relationships with players to understand what their needs are, and that's fundamental to what we're about.

Simon Ursell [00:44:04]:
I've got one more I've got one more question. Can I can I ask it, Simon? Can I have your permission? Have you got any?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:09]:
No. Go for it.

Simon Ursell [00:44:11]:
What has Ruby given you around bounce probability? And like and I'm gonna ask you to give me a number between 0 and 5. Sorry. Between 0 and a100, but it can't end in a 0 and a 5. What percentage do you use that?

Rich Bryan [00:44:23]:
Look at it. I'm comfortable. Myself really bad.

Simon Ursell [00:44:25]:
It's not a very bad idea. You a terrible question.

Rich Bryan [00:44:28]:
Well, that's been

Simon Ursell [00:44:29]:
a soft thought.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:30]:
Rusty, I can't

Rich Bryan [00:44:31]:
ask the questions.

Simon Ursell [00:44:34]:
Okay. What has rugby given you around resilience and bounce back ability? And what percentage of that kind of ended at 0 or 5 do you think was deliberate and how much of it actually just happened through the experiences? How much of it happened? Because you're now talking about deliberate things. You're talking about we put people around people. Yeah. We we pre mortem stuff. When they join from the academy, we help that transition go back to our time, like, how much you think it's helped you, but also, like, how much of that was intentional?

Rich Bryan [00:45:03]:
It's it's it has helped me a lot, I I think, but how much intentional? Probably not. I mean, I I look back at our

Simon Ursell [00:45:09]:
Give me a number.

Rich Bryan [00:45:09]:
I look back at our time at birth when it was late nineties. Game just turned professional. Bath had been the the biggest and best team. In the amateur area. I struggled a bit with that transition, but there's still a lot of those characters around. It was a tough environment. You had to be resilient, as you know. There there was it it was it was, yeah, at times.

Rich Bryan [00:45:32]:
And that resilient that did give me an offer, but none none of it was I don't know. Not a great deal of it was by design. It's by those experiences, by having to sink or swim in that environment. I remember moving over to Wales and kind of assuming that every training session must pretty or not. Yeah. Every week there must be a fight because that's where I was in training where I've just come from. No. That's not actually how things work.

Simon Ursell [00:45:55]:
Yeah. People don't have to have a fight on

Rich Bryan [00:45:57]:
the bus. Exactly. What what what are you doing? Like, is this not what happens every no. No. No. No. Alright. Okay.

Rich Bryan [00:46:03]:
So, yeah, a lot of it is by experience is experience. A lot of it is by experience. But if I was gonna hammer

Simon Ursell [00:46:08]:
Do you think some people, like, it didn't work out that well for them?

Rich Bryan [00:46:12]:
Yeah. Yeah. Definitely.

Simon Ursell [00:46:13]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Rich Bryan [00:46:14]:
Yeah. I mean, rugby is is rugby is. But the the game was littered with people who've who've who've come out the other side not in great shape, because of their experiences. Well, my experience it did help me, but, yeah, how much is it is rugby experience? How much is life experience? I really sort of I'm sorry, Russ. I can't put a figure on it, but but it's it's it's always impossible. I'd I'd be I'd be guessing. But And

Simon Ursell [00:46:35]:
to be fair to you, you have got a a brilliant wife who'd be very good at helping you How

Rich Bryan [00:46:40]:
much help you?

Simon Ursell [00:46:40]:
Again, again, support like your it sounds like your wife.

Rich Bryan [00:46:44]:
Talking through all these all these things, My wife's been the biggest anchor of all of them. Yeah. Because it's, you know, it gives you a different perspective. Even this morning coming on here. But, you know, and and and my and my role as well has also my current role has taught me a lot as well because we've had to go through some rugby's had to go through some incredibly tough times in the last 4 or 5 years. And not more so than in the last 18 months where clubs going out of business, Yeah. Where we had a 180 of our members without work. 2 clubs going Wassa and Wassa going at the same time.

Rich Bryan [00:47:24]:
In in an experience we hadn't gone through before, I've gone through as a player, although actually which we alluded to earlier in Wales, of a club disappearing. But we had gone as an organization, and and the resilience, going to the unknown, and and frankly, at times, taking the lead as well, and having to with the team we had all kind of going through its first time. And that experience was was was something else, and and but not not nearly as tough as obviously the people who are going through that who have been made or done suddenly, and end up actually being not not 3 clubs, but we helped out with Jersey Reds, was to warriors women as well, so 5 clubs. And and what I learned from that was was everyone pulling together as a team and relying on your you know, build that good team around you who you can rely upon. I'm so I'm so terrible at delegating. Terrible at delegating, but when you have a good team around you and they go, you know, I can do that for you. I do that and just having faith in that team, you know, the RPA team stepping up to play and doing some phenomenal work for individuals, for squads, the stuff that won't ever be talked about, but going

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:41]:
really That does sound amazing. So to to wind up, we I'm gonna ask you an impossible question. Another one. Yeah. No. This one's really hard. What would be your what would be your advice? Maybe, Rusty, you chip in as well to help as it's hard, just so I'm not being too mean. But what what would be your your top three pieces of advice to get given all of that stuff you've been through, the stuff you've just been through with clubs going past, all that advice you've had over the years, the fact that you were in what sounds like a pretty dreadful environment for resilience, if I'm completely honest with you, but you came out the other side.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:20]:
Well, yeah, but, I suspect I suspect a lot of people might have.

Simon Ursell [00:49:23]:
It's a great environment accidental resilience.

Rich Bryan [00:49:26]:
And lots of fighting.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:28]:
Not sure that's gonna help too much. But but, with with that, what would be your top pieces 3 pieces of advice that you would give to let let's broaden this out as well as to make it even harder, not not rugby players, to people that will help them be resilient? And I'll and I'll help a little bit because you just given us one which was the your team.

Rich Bryan [00:49:51]:
Yeah. Okay. That's that's a that is a really

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:04]:
bounce back ability because, you know, the I've got

Simon Ursell [00:50:06]:
my 3 already.

Rich Bryan [00:50:07]:
So I've

Simon Ursell [00:50:07]:
already I

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:08]:
know Rusty already has 3. But in terms of the the the things that you would say, these are gonna help you be more resilient generally rather than rugby players. A lot of people listen to this when we play rugby players. Yeah.

Rich Bryan [00:50:18]:
I mean,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:19]:
there will be some. I'm sure.

Rich Bryan [00:50:20]:
I the one is obviously yeah. That's the team around you. But for example, it's slightly different. Know who your anchors are.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:30]:
Yeah. And Define anchor?

Rich Bryan [00:50:34]:
Someone those people you can really go to who who there might not be that many people who to Anky of yeah. It it but they're dependable Trust. Stable trust. Those people you can go to.

Simon Ursell [00:50:50]:
The people you can ring at half past midnight and say, will you come with me to put me out put me out?

Rich Bryan [00:50:58]:
Oh my god. Yes. Them. Now you think you mentioned my wife, you mentioned my father, sadly no longer with us, but those those people but obviously but but then, yeah, these people depend upon who went who went stuff hits the fan and that half to half where you can you can call upon to give sound advice. And and and so that that's that's so it's a bit more than clergy team. There's know know your anchors. Cool. Be honest.

Rich Bryan [00:51:25]:
Be yeah. Be honest with yourself. Be honest with others. Why? I just I just I just go through that experience. We're just going through where we were kind of talk about cops going under what happens around there. That is what we find that. And I find it as a plug in through that as well. Sometimes there isn't a because people are scared and what I hear and people don't know what's going on.

Rich Bryan [00:51:47]:
The the most important thing there is is dealing facts. Yeah. I hear that. Deal in facts. Don't deal in rumors. Don't dealing, you know, deal with what you know for certain because rumors start to swirl and things like that and and you build hope that the things are gonna be slightly better Dealing facts and for that you need people to be honest. So that that's that's it. Know your anchors.

Rich Bryan [00:52:09]:
Be honest with yourself. Be honest with other people as well. And a third one. Yeah. I think we talked about it. It's like is is enjoyment. Trying to see the enjoyment in Yeah. In what you're doing, what you think.

Rich Bryan [00:52:23]:
Because because it's they wanna say,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:26]:
Landbridge United.

Rich Bryan [00:52:28]:
Landbridge United or, you know, people say you're the player welfare director of the RPA. That sounds amazing. Yeah. You're not saying you you I'm an accountant. I was like, oh, whatever. But you yeah. You go go, that must be amazing. And sometimes you step back, and I need to step back and then go, crap, it is.

Simon Ursell [00:52:45]:
It is a

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:45]:
good job. Challenge.

Rich Bryan [00:52:47]:
So so so, yeah, those three things. I'm not sure that helps, but then Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:52:50]:
Sometimes in a way, this will be my view. It's quite helpful for you to step back and recognize the progress you've made. How my three were. Yeah. Just the right again, mentor. So first, we've got a few stress at the moment. I rang Fletch. He's pretty good at it.

Simon Ursell [00:53:05]:
I think the dual identity bit's really important especially with sports people so who do you wanna be as a human, what's the stuff you wanna reflect on at the end of every day and go have I done that? And then I just think the stuff again go back to the the RPA day but pre morteming stuff like performing mental simulations of tasks and, scenarios before they happen. Of course, you can't predict all of them, but generally getting pretty good at thinking about if this happens, then this.

Rich Bryan [00:53:30]:
Yeah. But also you can you can get to overthinking on that as well. So so you just go balance that out, for someone like me. You can overthink very easily. So, yeah, it it's that balance. But you're absolutely right. It's And

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:42]:
that comes down to individualization, doesn't it?

Simon Ursell [00:53:44]:
Of course. And and no one plays the game of troops pursuits slower than Rich Brian. He's definitely, like, overthinking.

Rich Bryan [00:53:52]:
I'm good.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:54]:
There there we are. Well, amazing. Thanks, Rich. Thanks for coming on the pod. Really, really appreciate your time. Fascinating stuff. And you have got an amazing job. I'm very jealous, and it does sound amazing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:05]:
Over and out. Well, that was, another yet another great pod and, yeah, he's your mate, but, I I do think he's got a cool job. It's a stressful job, but it's a cool job. Unbelievably important one. Yeah. I mean, so much to unpack from that. Wow.

Simon Ursell [00:54:21]:
Even just interesting for me to hear some of those stories of him, like, running up the hill and and leaving and the buses going and yeah I wasn't that aware of that stuff if I'm honest and I actually saw like obviously people can't see it live but I saw some like fire in it, I know you picked up on it, but I actually saw a bit of fire in his eyes a couple of times there that Did you still think he's, like, really annoyed about it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:42]:
Oh, he definitely hasn't completely dealt with it. No. No. So, let's do the usual thing and take a couple of things out. Let's do 1 each. Let's do you do 1, I'll do 1. You do 1, I'll do 1. Yeah?

Simon Ursell [00:54:53]:
Yeah. My first one is accidental versus on purpose. I think the RPA are doing really good stuff around just putting this support network around players and helping them and you know as as you'll know from your work with Suzanne and Tyler grains like can't just leave this stuff to chance Think No. Lots of it was left to chance like it you know Rich was lucky like honestly as he you know Sarah's a force of nature she's also like unbelievable at this stuff he had a dad who was super supportive.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:21]:
Sarah's his wife yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:55:21]:
Sarah's his wife yeah. Not everyone has that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:24]:
No.

Simon Ursell [00:55:25]:
I definitely didn't have that. It made me think a bit about, like, I moved from Middlesbrough, you know, come from Middlesbrough and then I was I was living on Poultney Street in Bath and, like, couldn't be any further apart those two worlds. And actually, like, how people helped me with that wasn't like, it was kind of by accident, really.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:40]:
It does sound accidental and that, you know, when you guys are talking about fighting and and and all that kind of stuff, I'm thinking, well, that doesn't sound like a very good resilient environment. And yeah, the experience for a very small number of people would have made them resilient, but it's bound to have left some car crashes on the way. Must have.

Simon Ursell [00:55:57]:
There's definitely some car crashes. I have a really vivid memory as well of being on a bus on the way to the Heineken Cup dinner and 2 future England World Cup winning internationals having to have a fight with a, a past Welsh and British and Irish Lions player like full on 5 being forced to have that. And I was like, this is pretty weird. Like, I've had a few beers, and

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:19]:
I even thought that was resilient. That's just Yeah. That's just out of order. So so now you now it does seem to be that there's a lot more intention and support, and the stuff that Rich's doing sounds really, really good.

Simon Ursell [00:56:33]:
Yeah. Super intentional. I think the clubs are starting to recognize it as well in the same way that the best businesses are, and they've got Yeah. People who are really, like, honed in on this, they're being intentional, they've got a plan, they're helping people, they understand ahead of time for example, you know, if someone's leaving or someone's arriving, how can we help that person? So yeah. Look. I they get it's a different game to the game it was when, Lambbridge United were trolling the cider bars of Bath in the, mid nineties.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:02]:
Well, and that takes me to my first one, which is which is picking you up and too much fun. How is it how are you ever gonna have too much fun?

Simon Ursell [00:57:12]:
I loved your line. It's just a game.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:14]:
It's just it is just a game. I mean, well, I mean, it's not though, is it? I mean, that's the problem with prosport and money is it turns takes it from being a game and turns it into a job, and then it then you lose the fun side of it. It sounded to me, and and, you know, correct me if I'm wrong, but it sounded to me that you guys probably had the best time when you were playing for Landbridge United for the for Bath seconds.

Simon Ursell [00:57:33]:
Yeah. I think we were both coming back from injuries and playing quite a bit at that point for the seconds. And, yeah, just felt like we had belonging, felt supported. You know, of course, you couldn't do it now.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:44]:
Let us I wanna play for Lambert in Ireland.

Simon Ursell [00:57:46]:
That sounds amazing. You definitely didn't wanna come to the Beehive drinking cider where I would be.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:50]:
I wouldn't have enjoyed that

Rich Bryan [00:57:51]:
so much.

Simon Ursell [00:57:51]:
Although lots of the first team players did at that point as well, and it just wouldn't have again, it wouldn't exist in the modern world, would it, where the first team were losing and the second team were out drinking, wearing bibs.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:58:02]:
Well and then that's kind of my point, you know, too much fun. But when when you look at basketball and them trying to put fun in, isn't that something that we ought to be doing in business or in all environments? It's trying to make the experience enjoyable and make that front center. Because because high performance is gonna come from enjoyment, in my opinion. It's certainly in the business world. A happy team is definitely a more productive team.

Simon Ursell [00:58:27]:
Yeah. I mean yeah. But again, it comes down to the skill of the leader, doesn't it? So I would you know, probably the other thing this has made me reflect a lot on is is just how important leadership is in this. So if the leader doesn't want people to have fun and is measuring some other stuff then we ain't gonna have fun. My experience of rugby is generally some pretty poor leadership like actually like not really any kind of shared intention, not like you know us going look this is this is how you're gonna get the best out of me. Yeah. Just those conversations never really happened. So Sure.

Simon Ursell [00:59:01]:
Again, I think it's it's it's changing. You know? We see some amazing role models across the game. Obviously, you know, Razor has been, you know, with his dancing and connecting with Gen Z and all that stuff.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:59:14]:
Explained for those

Simon Ursell [00:59:15]:
Robertson Yep. Best mate.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:59:17]:
What an amazing coach.

Simon Ursell [00:59:18]:
Yeah. You know, Wayne Smith. He mentioned Stu Lancaster. Like, you know, even that blew my mind and got me thinking like his first review, and this was the last year of his career. His first proper review was the last year of his career.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:59:33]:
Yeah. Wow.

Simon Ursell [00:59:34]:
What was that? Now, of course, you do have a review on a Monday and maybe they, you know, they conflate the 2 that calling you in out in front of the team in a team meeting is a review but again I I again had a real reflection of how often did I have a really like intentional one on one meeting to, you know, that was based around my development that I would like probably own it, it would be on my terms. The the answer's never.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:00:01]:
And in the business world, how many people are actually doing that? Because there's there's so many performance reviews. These sorts of things done run by HR teams. They're not doing reviews. They're just saying you're not performing or you're performing.

Simon Ursell [01:00:12]:
Yeah. I don't mean don't mean that type of I mean, like, I'm really developmental owned by me. Like, yeah, would be vital from from yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:00:20]:
Dream catching a tardigrade to talk about.

Simon Ursell [01:00:22]:
Catching a tardigrade? Mhmm.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:00:23]:
Yeah. So it this it's not happening that much, though, is it? Let's be honest. I mean, we're saying, oh, isn't it amazing that that was that only happened at the end of his career. And but you go to leadership, don't you? You had a leader there who re recognized the importance of that stuff. You've got leaders in so many organizations that think that that isn't working.

Simon Ursell [01:00:40]:
Yeah. They just they just turn the hamster wheel. They're down in the weeds. They're not able to take that step back and recognize what's this person needing. Of course, this gets even more accentuated in sport because you are being judged on a weekly basis. Like, you know, you got matches, you got selection, you know, got injury. There's so much going on that I think it almost becomes way more important than sport. And, of course, people are doing it way more now than they used to do.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:01:04]:
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it happens in business too. I mean, people are sat there worrying about their jobs.

Simon Ursell [01:01:08]:
Yeah. It's true.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:01:09]:
And they get you know, they're generally given information now on a daily, weekly, monthly basis saying you have done this much work or you have invoiced this much or whatever it might be. There's plenty of information being fired at people without a huge amount of context. And it's and it can be pretty terrifying

Simon Ursell [01:01:23]:
in the Yeah. And I guess the flip of that is I work doing some work with some people who would say to me, I actually have no idea if I'm doing a good job, Rusty, which is also like so we there's 2 sides of this. The people that haven't got a clue if they're doing a good job and the people that are being made very very aware that they're currently not doing a good job, possibly not getting the support they need and it's based around you know, numbers and output and that type of stuff.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:01:45]:
Sure. Sure. Sure. Well, cool. My last one was transitions. I mean, his the image in my head of him being on the training pitch, I think he was, and watching and watching yeah. Watching everybody else get on the bus and then watching the bus leave. That's bad in my mind now, let alone is.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:02:04]:
Yeah. That and that really brings home the importance of support and resilience around transition. So if somebody's moving from one job to another, somebody's changing from being a rugby player to being a solicitor, you know, going and trying to switch on the computer, all that kind of stuff that you I think you have to realize that that is incredibly stressful for people. And that is a point which you really got to pay attention to and you've got to put a lot of resource behind having lots of support and lots of help with bounce back ability for people in those situations, that transition between roles, jobs, sports, whatever it might be. That's where that is a real obvious point at which people really need some help. So that was beautifully the picture painted in my eye of that is I mean, it's bringing a tear to my eye. It's unbelievable.

Simon Ursell [01:02:57]:
Probably again, I've been thinking again then about leaving the eye for you. And although there's a huge sense of relief for leaving, not a single member of the leadership have contacted me since I left in 20 years.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:03:10]:
It's a difficult conversation to have, isn't it? So and, you know, they probably don't think there's any benefit for them in it.

Simon Ursell [01:03:16]:
So I might message you a

Rusty Earnshaw [01:03:17]:
day today. Yeah. Maybe don't.

Simon Ursell [01:03:19]:
That's it.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:03:22]:
Anyway, another amazing pod. Thanks for getting Rich on and, speak to everybody soon.

Simon Ursell [01:03:27]:
Amazing. And the microphones worked.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:03:28]:
And the microphones worked, I hope.

Simon Ursell [01:03:31]:
Thanks so much for joining us on the Advanced podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can I reach you?

Rusty Earnshaw [01:03:41]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursel, u r s for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Simon Ursell [01:03:47]:
TikTok? No. Not really. LinkedIn, Russ Blanchaw. And then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:03:55]:
Yeah. Second that.

Simon Ursell [01:03:56]:
Over and out.