Embracing Playfulness: Unlocking the Power of Social Interaction and Connection with Dr Maarten Koeners & Adam Lusby | Episode 14

“Play is more than an activity; it is a feeling.” 

In today's episode we are joined by special guests Adam Lusby and Dr Maarten Koeners. Both experts and advocates of the transformative power of play, the conversation illustrates how playfulness can be used to create ‘prosocial environments’, be that in classrooms, competitive sports or the workplace. We discuss the crucial link between play and social connection, the transformative effects of incorporating play into educational and professional settings, and the importance of embracing a playful approach for resilience and engagement. 

Adam has spent the past decade dedicated to exploring the intersections of innovation, technology, and the idea of a regenerative circular economy. He enjoys creating engaging workshops that challenge participants to acquire and apply new knowledge through hands-on experiences. 

Maarten has a PhD in medical biology and is passionate about strengthening the link between learning and joy through integrating insights from design thinking and the neuroscience of play into learning experiences.

Join us as we uncover the science and practical applications of play, and learn how to infuse our lives with more joy, connection, and bouncebackability.

In this episode:

05:56 Play is essential for complex social connections in all mammals, especially humans.

06:57 Culture and interaction; social beings need genuine connections to avoid loneliness in non-social spaces.

18:54 How to make your space more social and playful, regardless of its challenges.

22:54 Why flexible, prosocial environments foster better resilience and improved creativity. 

37:49 Resistance to change will hold organisations back and dampen innovation.

57:19 How scheduling time for daydreaming may improve your productivity.

Connect with our guests here:

Dr Maarten Koeners

Adam Lusby

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the bounce back ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Simon Ursell [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:08]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on.

Simon Ursell [00:00:12]:
Microphone's working.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:14]:
Microphones are working. Yep.

Simon Ursell [00:00:15]:
Exciting times.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:16]:
I know. It was actually remarkably quick this time, wasn't it?

Simon Ursell [00:00:20]:
Amazing. I'm really looking forward to today. You've you've experienced it. I've experienced it a couple times, but down at the inner play lab in Exeter with, Adam and Martin who are also happen to have, like, ginormous

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:32]:
brains. They do. Very, very big brains. I'm quite impressed by their brains.

Simon Ursell [00:00:36]:
So I guess this kind of thing around play might not, and I'm sure they're both very humble guys, so we won't probably hear about the stuff that they've done. And Martin, the Dutchman, with his, like I think he's like a neurobiologist or something like really intelligent.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:53]:
Yeah. He lectures in medicine and the science of brains and things. I mean, yeah. They have pretty impressive backgrounds, academic backgrounds, so that is always fascinating about the science of play. And Adam as well, he's a lecturer in entrepreneurship and and it's quite quite cutting edge stuff these guys are working on and, experience and knowledge of you just learn so much from people like this.

Simon Ursell [00:01:18]:
I'm gonna go quickly, and we're let's get this going. But just three words to describe your experience in a play. Can't, can't be like you talking about your dancing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:28]:
Well, I'm gonna use dancing first. No. I would say innovative, enjoyable, and challenging.

Simon Ursell [00:01:37]:
Let's, hear what they've got to say.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:39]:
Nice one. Okay. Welcome to the Bounce Back Ability podcast. We got Martin and Adam here from InnoPlay Exeter University talking to us a bit about play, we hope, and how that might help us. So, Adam, did you wanna just give us a little bit about yourselves and what you guys are doing?

Adam Lusby [00:01:57]:
Yeah. Simon and Rusty, thank you for the invitation. Really lovely to be here. And, I'm Adam Musby. I'm a senior lecturer in entrepreneurship at the University of the Exeter Business School, and I'm cofounder of InnoPlay.

Maarten Koeners [00:02:08]:
Yeah. Pleasure to be here too. And, my name is Martin. I'm a senior lecturer at the medical school of the University of Exeter and cofounder of InnoPlay too.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:17]:
So, play. What what's that all about then?

Adam Lusby [00:02:21]:
Oh, that's that's a big question, isn't it? Play. But, maybe we start where you started. Well,

Maarten Koeners [00:02:29]:
so I tell there's a story then. Once all at a time.

Simon Ursell [00:02:31]:
You

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:31]:
can tell a story. Yeah. Go for it. Stories are good. We've had we've had storytelling before. It's quite exciting, a story.

Maarten Koeners [00:02:38]:
I was in a house where there was a book lying around by Stuart Brown, and I never picked it up until I picked it up one day, and at the same day or or so the same week, I was asked to, create a lecture about the biology of play, the physiology of play. And, that book inspired me. The challenge inspired me. And, I start to do more play in my teaching, at the medical school. And that ignited a fire in me to go further, learn more and create workshops around it. And I, got a education incubator to for, to experiment for a year, how to use play and playfulness in, higher education. And then COVID happened and then other habits

Adam Lusby [00:03:26]:
in that order. So, yeah. So picking up on the question about play, I, I I was merely happily doing innovation entrepreneurship. And I suppose as a subject, it's open to the idea of creativity and how do you get people to think more creatively. You create challenges that maybe are a little bit ambiguous, a little bit uncomfortable. So I was down that route and then met Martin. And Martin sort of brought this challenge of where's play? How's play, you know, the playful university? What are we doing with it? And so one coffee, 90 minute meeting. Yeah.

Adam Lusby [00:03:59]:
2 weeks later, we were running our 1st playful lab, which was an in person session around play. And what we've discovered over the last two and a half years, or almost 3 years is that play is not just an activity, it's also an emotion, it's also a feeling. And so we very much lean into that. The other thing that we, are developing around play is the idea of combating the non social space. And particularly in education, that's a big lecture theater. You walk in, someone talks at you for an hour or 2 hours, and then you walk back out and you might not have any interaction. And to do that to a bunch of intelligent apes is really odd. It's really odd space.

Adam Lusby [00:04:43]:
So that but it's antisocial. It's just nonsocial. And so when you inject play into with the understanding that we have this sort of broad understanding of play being not just an activity, it's an emotion, it's a feeling, it's it's something that we're socially, biologically, programmed to to to to do, you very quickly move to this idea of prosocial spaces. And that that activates a whole realm of different opportunities.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:12]:
Oh, amazing. I mean, I have many questions, Rusty, that like I

Simon Ursell [00:05:14]:
was just gonna say, like, what's the impact upon intelligent apes of of what you just described? Because if I had a pound for every university lecturer that has said to me, we're having a problem with engagement, at the moment and and probably blaming a bit of COVID and a bit of teenager stuff. Like, what's going on for those people when they sat in a lecture theater, probably been spoken to for a long period of time without that much kind of perhaps thinking going on, like biologically, socially. I'm just curious because maybe this is like the opposite of maybe this is creating a need for bad speculability because it's actually having a really poor impact on people.

Maarten Koeners [00:05:56]:
Well, I'll I'll I'll first start that, it's not that play is the antidote for a lecture theater. For some ways of learning, there is a place for some rumination and some information transfer. However, if you look from the biological perspective, in through different orders of mammals, the the bigger the relative brain size, the more complex the social, nature is of that, species or order and the more play they play. There's a direct correlation with between how much play you need to socially connect. So that's how we see it. That play is actually a biological need, for complex society, and humans are relatively complex in in their interactions. And and play is is is is a biological need, and that that you see this through, evolution and through different orders of speed orders

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:54]:
of What

Simon Ursell [00:06:54]:
are the implications of of that not being played?

Adam Lusby [00:06:57]:
So so before we answer that, just looking when you take that lens that, social creatures use play to create culture and to interact, When you take that lens and you start looking across the workplace, the education systems, you start to see this nonsocial space nonsocial spaces where we're interacting as almost robots. Right? There's not the there's no there's no real social depth or connection in in in, between the lecturers and the and the students. And in workplaces, you only have to go into sort of a a big workplace and see how many people are not interacting with each other in any sort of social sense, and that's a non social space. And the I think for us, this picks up from some of the some of the work in the states that these non social space leads to loneliness. And so if you're not if you're craving connection as an intelligent social ape and you're being subjected to lots of nonsocial space or lots nonsocial activity, you're the what what what is the outcome is loneliness. So I think that's that's that's a really important part of our work is is really pulling out this this nonsocial activity or space versus what we know is antisocial. Right? We know what antisocial is. That's something that disrupts the social.

Adam Lusby [00:08:24]:
So that could be in a classroom. That could be somebody, you know, playing up. But actually, that's not so much of our that's not our real concern. Our real concern is that we're putting intelligent apes through into spaces that are nonsocial, and that drives this disconnection. It drives it probably drives a certain amount of behavior around, you know, wanting to be seen. So when we get, you know, early, early 2000, you get social media. So it's 2010 sort of onwards you get social media and everybody wants to be seen. And you're like, well, what's driving that? Well, maybe it's because of all the spaces that we're putting our kids through are non social spaces.

Adam Lusby [00:09:02]:
So they've got a craving to be seen. Maybe if they were being seen in the classroom, they were being seen in in the in the home, they would feel less the less need to to to be on social media and, you know, creating the creating the sort of the outrageousness that social media requires for you to be.

Maarten Koeners [00:09:21]:
So I'll I'll I'll give a quote from Stuart Brown here that fits really well is that the the opposite of play is not work. It's depression.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:30]:
Well, actual depression. Yeah. Wow. I was gonna I mean, I was gonna ask you, presumably, that's one of the parts of that book you read that started you on this journey that really stood out to you. Was there anything else in that book? I mean, that's a fairly profound statement, But it was only Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:09:47]:
That's knocked me a bit of that statement, if I'm honest. Like, it kinda got me in the same second. We're

Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:52]:
not playing

Maarten Koeners [00:09:53]:
So so the the journey that Stuart Stuart Brown went on as a, psych psych, psychiatry, psychiatrist, clinician, he, was asked to look at the Texas shooter in the sixties, what was happening there. And, he found that there was a severe lack of play in childhood, and that brought him on a journey to do, with multiple, people that did shootings and and similar to find that there was a correlation. The the old backgrounds were all diverse, but there was always that coming back that there was something wrong or missing in their lives, play wise. And, that's ended up in that book where he, did I think, when National Geographic did some research, in, in in mammals to see, if that is, to yeah, to understand it. And then they they do see that, the research shows if you deprive, for instance, in, in rat studies, if you deprive rats, play and then let them play again, they actually play 10 times more. So that is what what Adam just said about that need to be seen. It's just really biological. It's just like sleep if you were sleep deprived.

Maarten Koeners [00:11:15]:
You need to catch up with sleep and you see that in the research as well when you deprive them of play. And then and then usually it is is very focused on social play. Because you can, isolate rats and have them play with toys, or you can have them with our littermates and play with toys. And that is the one that they catch up on. And that's the one that also is tied in to all these neurodevelopment, etcetera.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:40]:
That that that is fascinating. I mean, I I while you guys were speaking, I I kept hearing this voice in my head of some, you know, the sort of devil in my head saying, well, shouldn't people learn how to sit patiently and listen to people? And and I mean, I don't think that, but I can just hear people saying that, you know, you know, young people should learn how to sit still and pay attention. Seen and not heard, that sort of phrase. That sounds like it's a very damaging thing for people to learn and and grow and be healthy and happy.

Maarten Koeners [00:12:11]:
Well, I think it's about balance. If you look at all this, mechanism in in in in nature, there needs to be a balance. And it feels like there's a bit of, out of balance where that sitting down and listening is too much and the actual free play is too little.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:27]:
Sure. Sure. I mean, that, and so, so would you say that more play means more bounce back ability, more resilience? Is that a is that a fairly at the moment, given that we're out of balance?

Maarten Koeners [00:12:39]:
Yeah. Yes. I would say that I with with the with the addition that play is not what what Adam also already said. It's not necessarily a And for some people, it can be quite playful to sit at a table and listen and maybe have a bit of banter or whatever. But if you if you allow yourself your own personality to find the the ways that are playful for you so we're we often talk about playfulness and the playful stance, that if you if you lead with that, good things, will happen in your life.

Adam Lusby [00:13:19]:
What's the quote, Martin, about cynical? There's something something we see when we were

Maarten Koeners [00:13:24]:
Yeah. So so quite often the question comes, what about competition competitive play? Because quite a lot of researchers, have really, pushed forward for free play, right? Also, it's sort of so not going to a soccer game or football, but but really free roaming outside. And I think, Stuart Stuart Brown, again, when we met him in person in in LA recently, he he, made a real good comment that that if competitive play is not cynical, it can be playful. But as soon as it becomes cynical, it takes the playfulness out of

Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:56]:
Define cynical?

Maarten Koeners [00:13:59]:
Well, what what does cynical mean for you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:01]:
I'm Okay. So that's a personal thing, is it? It's the the sin if you find it cynical, then it's not helpful. Say, if you're if you're doing it, that's something that is no longer playful, you're finding that you have to win and you're stressed about that, play sort of disappears. Is that is that would that be a fair thing to say Yeah. So I think for me?

Maarten Koeners [00:14:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. So and and that's why I don't think a noncynical competitive play activity can be not necessarily have to be not cynical for everyone. Just like when you teach a certain way, it will not resonate with everyone as much. So so, yeah, it is very individual when it's cynical. But if you if you wanna, create prosocial spaces, you you wanna really look at how can I get that cynicism for

Adam Lusby [00:14:48]:
It goes it goes back to fairness? And and again, we have a we have a drive around fairness because we're a social creature. We want fairness. And so when play becomes unfair or, you know, it it breaks down. Right? It just becomes I mean, look at look at competitive sport, you know, probe competitive sport, a lot of it's not particularly playful. It's obvious that it's not I mean, in in in some of its sweetest moments it might be, but a lot of it is very cynical. And so you've lost a lot of the play out of that out of that environment.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:15:25]:
Yeah. I mean, I really hear that.

Simon Ursell [00:15:26]:
I always think of competition as like this thing where me and you are competing to help each other get better.

Adam Lusby [00:15:32]:
Lovely definition of competition.

Simon Ursell [00:15:34]:
I mean,

Adam Lusby [00:15:34]:
I think the Greeks I think the Greeks divide

Simon Ursell [00:15:36]:
by the taking you start you start taking drugs to beat me, that's probably cynical. Yeah. The minute you start cheating and, like, arguing with the referee to beat me, like, I think that's cynical. He also reminded me he reminded me of a I might have mentioned on previous podcast, but I did a day in the life of a kid when I was a teacher. So you spend a day with a child and you just, like, spend the whole day with them and it is quite frankly boring. Like, it just sat down for, like, 7, 8 hours a day being spoken to and, you know, and even simple things I was thinking yesterday, we were in the business yesterday and a couple of people took their shoes off and then we all took our shoes off and we're in our socks and suddenly that already creates a different feeling in you. Like, it's not well, you're not talking about, like, people running around, like, crazily, are you? You're just talking about this kind of mindset or emotion of, you know, I can probably be myself. It's a little bit different.

Adam Lusby [00:16:27]:
There might see some running around crazy.

Simon Ursell [00:16:28]:
It might be that

Adam Lusby [00:16:29]:
as well. Yeah. But, no, it it does I mean, so

Simon Ursell [00:16:33]:
How would it translate for you? So, like, you are you are lecturing. You are how does that look in your world?

Adam Lusby [00:16:40]:
So how does play turn up? So so I think play turns up in a way of, firstly, if I'm if I'm creating a space, how do I make that space prosocial? And therefore, what interactions can I create that are both towards the learning and towards the the the connection that's created between the learners? And then play. So so something really interesting that we've we've really worked on and discovered about play is it's a way of getting maybe into the self and getting to a place that's more authentic. And so when you use play to socialize a room, the room becomes a lot more, trusting. It becomes a lot more attentive, engaged. And this could be as simple as a game of Dobble, card game, Littleton. Lots of kids know it. And you play that game just at the beginning of a session, and the room changes. It becomes a social room suddenly.

Adam Lusby [00:17:40]:
And so play can turn up in multiple ways. For for us, we will go we will use the whole spectrum of high activity, like Happy Salmon, which is a card game where you run around madly through to meditation. And we we think that's the whole spectrum, so reflective sort of meditation. We think that players bet players spreads across all of that for us. What's interesting for for a room is play allows some of the discomfort, some of the ego to disappear. It becomes that social room is so much easier to then spend a moment in reflection or spend a moment in creativity, creating a new idea and and and using it. So play is play for us at the moment is very much the instigator of an engaged prosocial space. And so, again, I'm hoping I answered the question here

Simon Ursell [00:18:38]:
right away. You have. And I guess 2 of the things that I took from that, one was, like, just the architecture of the space is probably quite important and what that looks like, and then secondly, like, I guess how you start or how you prime people's brains for this is how we might behave around here.

Adam Lusby [00:18:54]:
Yeah. So so simple tricks for for us, and and I suppose, yeah, there are things that we we've we've either discovered or or just through who we are, we've we've we've used. Space is key, but I would say that Martin and I do this all over the place, all over the world. And so we're dumped in spaces that are awkward and difficult. And, I mean, one of the spaces we're in recently had big pillars in the middle of the room and it was just like, how do we how do we move? Another space we had was all the desks was, like, joined together in a big snake and so people couldn't even get around around them. So there's a lot of there's a lot of design that comes into making a room social and playful in that space. So I'd we would we would challenge ourselves that we could do it in any space. We could make any space prosocial and playful.

Adam Lusby [00:19:42]:
And but then if to to to build on that, yes. Having a flexible space, we've got a space at the Business School at Exeter which is based, inspired by d school Stanford. And it everything's on wheels. Everything's movable. So we can create within that space, you know, almost endless combinations of spaces from sitting on the floor to sitting on sitting in a circle and chairs. It's it's it's incredibly flexible. And that space, yeah, is is is a bit of a, yeah, it's a bit of a special place in terms of what we create. And then finally, I would say setting the scene for a room.

Adam Lusby [00:20:20]:
One of the easiest things for us to indicate to our participants, be that students or or businesses, is when you walk into the room, there's music playing. And that music to the to the human is an indication that the permission to either dance, sing, or that this is a social space. So for us, music is is really key. And so music is sort of a it's one of those wonderful sort of, you know, it's a soundtrack to what we do. So so I would say if a room is a workspace is feeling a bit dry and a bit a bit empty and you want it to be prosocial, just start the morning with a song. Put put a song on a on a on a speaker system and and play it for and and just let people enjoy the music and let let obviously, we let our students choose the music. So it's the music that we're playing, that sort of

Maarten Koeners [00:21:10]:
thing. Yeah. I want to share that both Adam and me, saw in in, our teaching at the same time when we were developing how do we create prosocial space. That when we really felt that we created a prosocial space and there was really, belonging and, and but also still space for deep learning and and hard exercises like, research paper analysis, etcetera. But by what we've done, just playing a game of double or something, in the in the morning and having music, We both individually saw in our classrooms that the the students felt safe enough and free enough to start singing along with the music, bobbing along, and and clearly not even being aware that they did it. But there was really this lovely energy that really because you can't really quantify if a classroom is playful. But that was for us a sort of indicator that we were onto something.

Adam Lusby [00:22:10]:
Yeah. And Mal has pulled up a key point here. You know, so much of our world is driven by quant. What can we quantify? Can we measure it? There's there are ways of measuring playfulness and Martin's got the, you know, you've got the research to to show that. But the sometimes I think we just gotta trust. We've just gotta go this room feels good. And sort of we're human so if it feels good to us and our participants saying it feels good to them, then do we have to measure? Yeah. I don't know.

Simon Ursell [00:22:38]:
Yeah. Then that's data for you, isn't it?

Adam Lusby [00:22:40]:
Yeah. It's data. But yeah. How do you quantify it? I'm not interested. Really not interested. I'm I'm interested in in in being getting to a human measure where humans go, yeah, this this is working. Okay. If it's working, we agree it's working, then let's move on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:22:54]:
Look. I mean, that this is fascinating stuff, and it goes back to a theme that we've had in every podcast, I think, which is environment. And the environment that you're in and resilience is so, so key, from military environments, scientific environments, sport environments, If the environment is built around resilience, about helping people be resilient, then you're gonna see a lot more resilience in it. We I mean, Rusty and I both been to your play lab. I've taken Tyler Grange down there. We're we're trying to take some of because it's so great. It's such a brilliant environment to be in and explore things and work in. We're trying to bring some we've we've already done some things and we're thinking about how we might design our offices very differently to to allow that flexibility, things on wheels, cables coming out of the ceiling so you can plug stuff in anywhere, having playful things in the office.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:48]:
So allowing music playing, those kinds of things really important. If I mean, for, for people listening to this music sounds like something that's, that's really easy to do that, that helps approach social space. Are there any other things that you would say if in any space, if we did this, it's gonna make it more prosocial?

Adam Lusby [00:24:11]:
Yeah. I think okay. So disclaimer, I trained as an architect, and my training was pretty antisocial or nonsocial. Right? We were creating buildings, mainly being being examined on what sort of shapes we could come up with and what sort of, you know, what sort of bold statements we could do with materials. Very little of my education was, to be an architect was about creating a space where humans dwelled comfortably. Now there is a mass amount in the architectural world that that looks like looks at that. But generally, we train architects to sort of do bold statements. And I think that is it it misses misses the key bit of who's the customer and who's the user of the space.

Adam Lusby [00:24:58]:
If we're looking at prosocial spaces, we have to consider that our moods change through the day. We will turn up with different emotions on different days. Some days you'll turn up and you just don't want music, and you want a quiet spot. And I think this is what we haven't quite understood is how do we cater for the person arriving as they are that day. We certainly are not advocates of what would be called toxic positivity where everything's like hyper. You come in and, you know, high five everyone. We're sort of thinking Californian Silicon Valley, you know, start up. So everyone's high fiving.

Adam Lusby [00:25:42]:
There's music blaring. That that can be as antisocial as, as as being quiet, you know, into a in a big open office room where nobody talks to each other. So the idea of socializing a space is creating probably something that's that's biologically more receptive to what we are as intelligent apes. It's spaces that we can curate. And the wonderful thing about the PlayLab for CQ at the business school is because everything's so movable, you can create, you know, you can create a a a really quiet lie on the floor on the on the little you know, we've got, like, pads that are used in kindergarten to lie on the floor and do a meditation, or you can stand up and dance. And I I know I challenge that sort of idea that that people need to choose the space or or or be able to curate have agency over the space to make it prosocial. So do we, you know, do do we wanna sit in the same place every day? Maybe. Do we wanna do we want another space to be able to sit in? These are all questions that a culture in an organization has to work through.

Adam Lusby [00:26:54]:
I've probably blabbed on a bit too much here, man, because it's a bit of

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:57]:
a No. I mean, they haven't blabbed on too much. I think I think I mean, what I'm hearing is flexibility, options, individualization is absolutely key to the environment. So the ability to create a space that, people can choose how they want to be social in is essential. So they don't, it doesn't have to be any way. So the that ability to make it flexible and give people options is gonna be the most, helpful space for this.

Adam Lusby [00:27:27]:
Yeah. And if you look at our biological background, so our evolution as a species, we had fire. We had the the often the fire was the central part of of of where the community gathered. That still is very much to today people will gather in a kitchen. You know, it's it's quite often that, you know, you can have a really nice big space and everyone's actually in the kitchen because that's that is that's where, you know, that's where the action's happening. The social action's happening. So creating spaces where where folk can gather, but also folks can maybe go off and, you know, team up with someone else or or you know, it's that ability to go, oh, I need to work with that person quietly over in that corner. Or I need to we all need to get together and and be on sort of equal footing.

Adam Lusby [00:28:14]:
That's a prosocial approach to to the environment.

Simon Ursell [00:28:18]:
And most classrooms have one option?

Adam Lusby [00:28:20]:
One option that's very hard to move, in higher education

Simon Ursell [00:28:25]:
less than a year ago. If you think about, you know, just people arriving differently, but also the difference between, you know, neurodiversity and, like, the whole thing, like, just stresses me out if I'm brutally honest. And I think what you said Martin is actually and I'm I'm curious about, like, what your results have been from this. So let's get into the, spreadsheets and the numbers. Because you were talking about, like, people doing that so I think, like, your ability to do deep work is, like, a super important thing, isn't it? And you were talking about actually for people to, like, do deep work through some of these processes and some of these environments. So I'm just curious, like, what's been the impact of your work? What have you noticed? What have you measured?

Maarten Koeners [00:29:06]:
Well, I'll I'll start start with with some of the science first that that, the science shows that, we live in a society where we quite often only activate one part of the brain a lot a long time, like noticing, in the lecture theaters, just the notes in part of the brain, gathering all the information. What play does very benignly, sneakily even, or sub subversively is actually activated other parts of the brain like experimentation and sense making. And that's that's called full full full brain learning if you activate all those things. So if you do that by, playing a little bit of flop ball, just like we did before we started this podcast, Your brain is already getting a little bit of a warm up exercise for that that. So if you do that in a teaching environment or learning environment, that can be very beneficial. And, spreadsheet wise, most of the data we get in is is anecdotal and quite often also, unsolicited, unsolicited feedback from students, even a pre recorded online lecture where I infuse things around play, and also moments of self reflection. So before I continue to, explore the neuroscience of play, let's reflect on what play means for you. And then I get unsolicited feedback that this was the the the best lecture they ever watched or because it was the end of COVID as well, that it was something that really brightened their day, etcetera.

Maarten Koeners [00:30:47]:
So there's a lot of, things like that. And, and and what happens a lot with with play if if you model a certain behavior in a classroom, they start doing it themselves. Adam might share a little bit about just putting meditation in the room. And there's a little bit of resistance.

Adam Lusby [00:31:10]:
Yeah. There's, like, resistance in the, you know, start up term. People are like, And you've got sort of some of the teenage sort of sort of look on the faces. They sort of shrug over. And then by week 6, we've been doing it for 6 weeks, 1 once a week. And people are, you know, sitting up straight, closing their eyes. And then the feedback at the end of term is, oh, thanks for sharing those those meditations. We're only 5 minutes long.

Adam Lusby [00:31:31]:
I'm now meditating. I've meditated for my exams or meditating before I do my assignments, and and I'm seeing that seeing the payoff. So some of it's just practice. Some of it is just purely practice. I'll build on I'll build on some of the the sort of anecdotal feedback, that we've seen in in Oplay Studio, which is a 3 and a half day course which we run for really primarily for educators, high higher education educators to to put play design play into their lives, into themselves, and into the work they do. We've had, you we've got colleagues now with we're into our 3rd year of running that. We've got colleagues who have, you know, they've openly said they've they've been they've basically been reengaged in their in delivering their learning. They they found something in themselves, some intrinsic motivation through play that has helped them.

Adam Lusby [00:32:19]:
They're getting good. They're getting positive feedback from their students. So it's this lovely virtuous cycle. And I I would I would add my own experience of meeting Martin and getting and becoming more playful is it's a lightness that is hard in this world which at times feels so dark. And so they're coming back to resiliency, putting a bit of play into your life, just on a regular basis activates part of the brain. There's a Martin's got a whole slide set to our slide set, I suppose, on the drugs that that are the the different chemicals that are flowing in the brain when we're playing and how we're socializing and stuff. But but that lightness, when we're talking about resiliency is a very useful approach. It's one, it's infectious when you're around others.

Adam Lusby [00:33:04]:
So if you go in moan and groan and, you know, it's not it's not difficult to get a circle of people moaning and groaning, particularly in the workplace. But if you go into a circle and you're a bit light and you're a bit playful, it's amazing how quick that circle becomes all that meeting becomes playful. So the I think I think that in from my own evidence of the power of of is is sort of evidence of the power of of engaging in in something that's deeply biological.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:38]:
I I mean, I think I can help Rusty with some spreadsheets because we took We've got

Simon Ursell [00:33:43]:
of course I have no interest in spreadsheets.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:45]:
I know I know you don't, but I

Simon Ursell [00:33:47]:
can whatsoever.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:48]:
I can, we took we took a dozen guys from Tyler Greenstone to your lab. I think it was about a dozen of us came down and and spent a few days with you guys in that lovely space that you've got, learned a bit about, what you're teaching, and we've taken that back to Tyler Grange, and it's had a big impact, definitely. Because we've what we've seen is certainly in our dream catching and our mentoring, that has become transformed because there's now a heck of a lot more presocial activities going on in those in those, 1 on ones, in in our sessions, in our in our board meetings, in our operations. I mean, these quite dull, process y meetings are now starting with a bit of play. There's a bit of play going on in them. And the feedback we're getting from the team is that they're enjoying all of that stuff loads more. But for me, more importantly, is we are seeing a significant increase in the frequency and number of our dream catching and our mentoring sessions because people are looking forward to it and are making the time to do it because they're enjoying it more, because it's there's a bit more socialization going on, but I think they're also getting a heck of a lot more out of it. They're much more successful.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:03]:
So in terms of some data, if people want that, which, you know, I don't really care about it either, but if people want that, it's had an impact. It's had a measurable impact on the, team at Tyler and Grange. And we're we're not in the education space, but I would argue that every manager is an educator, so it's been very helpful for us.

Simon Ursell [00:35:25]:
Well, again, just for me thinking aloud about, like, teachers, leaders, coaches, like, it doesn't look like that much fun in in lots of situations and I I definitely think, as you said there, like it's actually lightened you. Like maybe just like give it a go and just see how that works. I was I was really interested and you mentioned the word resistance because you will encounter resistance, I imagine quite a lot. I'm just curious as to like what what's, like how do you deal with that stuff?

Adam Lusby [00:35:53]:
How do we deal with resistance? So we we Matt and I joke a little bit because we work with, you know, across the University of Exeter with different teams. And, you know, universities are most faculty would would probably be introvert. And in a lot of workshop playful even playful sort of settings, that would be frowned upon. But actually, introverts are deep thinkers. They often have much better solutions than extroverts like me who just blurt stuff out. So in actually working across the university, the resistance we do have resistance because, you know, we've been told that we can't be children. We can't be, you know, playful, silly, it's frivolous, and all the stuff that happens as you as you get educated, you know, along the way and stop messing about. Rusty, stop it.

Adam Lusby [00:36:47]:
You know? Sorry. Sorry. So yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:36:49]:
I won't do it again.

Adam Lusby [00:36:50]:
No. Exactly. And so so, you know and we've got a full professor who's, you know, the height of their of their very detailed work. So they're very, very deep in the piece of work and they're also translating that to educate the next generation. And so, you know, that is serious. It feels serious. Martin's teaching medical students. It's it's life or death that that part of it.

Adam Lusby [00:37:15]:
And so we've been challenged, 2 things. We've been we've we've had to recognize those rooms, when we've particularly when we've got the the senior team. And it is it takes a bit of courage, I suppose, on our behalf to say, well, you're gonna stand up. You're gonna close your eyes, get some space in the room, and then we'll put dancing on the ceiling on and we'll ask you to dance. And there's a moan. There's a groan. And then, you know, people dance in their own way. But it's safe because everyone's got their eye closed eyes closed but but me.

Adam Lusby [00:37:49]:
And, you know, that there's a lot of resistance to that. There's a lot of, oh, but we can measure through watching the room the before and after of that. And then we can also measure the the level of conversation after we've done an exercise like that in the room, which is really about letting go of a whole whole bunch of the b s that we've we've sort of built up around our, ethics, our culture, who we who we who we think we should be. So play breaks that down. Now it doesn't it doesn't happen overnight. But some of the some of the colleagues we've worked with, and this is always don't read a book by its cover. Right? Some of the colleagues who've engaged with us, we've gone they're gonna be resistant.

Simon Ursell [00:38:36]:
And they're awesome dancers.

Adam Lusby [00:38:38]:
And they're the big converts. They're the ones out championing it. Yeah. And so there's something really interesting that some of the some of the people who even even some of the folk who are really resistant on sort of the morning 1 of of, you know, play studio, by by the last afternoon, they're the ones going the furthest. So this this goes back to the biology. It's innate. And when you unlock that innate, trigger, off it goes. So resistance resistance takes courage.

Adam Lusby [00:39:12]:
So for leaders and managers to to do something and I think this is this is a compliment to Tyler Grange in in that its leadership takes these bold decisions to put its, its staff and its leadership teams through different, you know, multiple different, experiences to to really get them to grow. It takes courage because it it is it is a bit like, how's this gonna play out? We struggle to describe our work because we see it because it's such an experience and a feeling. It's hard to say, oh, you you arrive here on day 1. You've you've been down, you know, you came down. You're like, okay. What's gonna happen? And we we take on, learning through discovery or learning through inquiry approach. So we're not open we're not putting out everything as objectives in the beginning. We just start and we get going.

Adam Lusby [00:40:01]:
And that's can be very uncomfortable. But, actually, if you haven't experienced it, it's also really hard to describe what happens.

Simon Ursell [00:40:07]:
I was gonna ask, before I I thought, are you? Like, you're removing masks from people one person at a time, but I was gonna ask Simon, like, what was your experience around that resistance? Obviously, you took a group of diverse people from TG and some of them would have been excited about it, I can tell from your smile, and some of them less excited. What did you notice about that?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:27]:
Yeah. I think I mean, we were down there for a few days and I think to start with, it was everyone. The interesting thing was we took some people that hadn't really met each other that much. So we had a few people going on that were quite new, so they didn't really, they didn't know everybody that well. And I think they were the ones initially that were really, I would say, freaked out by it. You know, this is my this is my boss. This is the the MD of the organisation, and he's throwing some major shapes around, dancing to this

Simon Ursell [00:40:55]:
Major shapes. Yeah. I was Hang on. Just let's take a moment. Come on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:58]:
I'm a major player. And I threw major shapes.

Simon Ursell [00:41:01]:
I really wanna do show me. I really wanna go show you what they look like for

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:04]:
a while. That that was videoed because I was pushing some major shapes out on that dance floor. But it but then, you know, the guys that had been around the business a long time, we're quite playful anyway. So, you know, we we we would have we would have gone into this fairly full on. But there were some people there that hadn't been in the business that long that that and I think you guys said to me

Simon Ursell [00:41:28]:
there was some kind of test. Yeah. It was.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:32]:
Absolutely. What what the heck is going on here? And then, day 2, I think you guys noticed that day 2, it didn't just change. It was massive change. We we the the group were, we got into it day 1, and we we got stuck in and had a great time. But day 2 was was significantly more engaged. And I think that was because we went out for a meal, socialised a lot in the evening as well. We do everyone knew what was gonna happen. Day 2, we really went for it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:01]:
And I think it was it was great. It was really lovely. It was quite freeing. And the interesting thing, you know, you say it takes a lot of courage to do this stuff. Personally, I think it takes much more courage not to do this stuff. Well, it when you think about it, because if you if you aren't engaging with new ideas and growth and all the rest of it, your business is gonna your your organization is gonna finish. You're gonna stop you're gonna you're gonna be in real trouble. So, I I mean, I I find it frightening how few organizations go out and spend time doing interesting, different, challenging things.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:38]:
Because I I'm just looking and thinking you're not gonna be around for long if you care in doing that, especially in such a changing world. So that and I think Innoplay and the stuff you guys are doing is is is right at the cutting edge of this stuff because if you're if you become if you learn a little bit while at play and realise some of the science, the neuroscience around it for Martin and some of the techniques that you can use, it it's, it's essential. It's not a it's not a choice. If you're not doing this stuff, I think you're gonna be in trouble personally. I mean, having having got involved.

Simon Ursell [00:43:11]:
Yeah. I would I'll give you some data from yesterday. I was with the team and they had 2 new members and we were talking a little bit about why they joined. One of them, said that basically for the last 15 years, they were constantly being checked on whether or not their green light was on on Teams. I have no idea what that means, by the way. But, basically, if they weren't on Teams or they weren't at their desk, they would get a call and asked why they're not, like that doesn't sound that playful. And the second one was a lady who'd been out of business for 10 years and said and just, like, blurted out, and I and I swore at this point, I haven't had a lunch break for 10 years. Wow.

Simon Ursell [00:43:49]:
And just that, like do you know what I mean? Like, they see what we think is, like, the right thing to get the best out of humans. Like, this seriousness as we become older actually is the stuff that's probably causing us, you know, this generation or, like Well, that

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:05]:
I mean, I I mean, I'm gonna I'm gonna ask and I'll go, well, make a statement and ask another question then I'll shut up about this. But this is nuts, isn't it? I mean, there are people running organisations who have absolutely no understanding of what gets the best out of people. Because to have your green light on on teams and not have a lunch break, that person's performance is not gonna be very good.

Simon Ursell [00:44:23]:
Yeah. They both, admitted that. It's ridiculous.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:25]:
So you say, as a sort of baseline, that is I mean, that's just really bad management, and it's going to affect the organization very negatively. That's, I mean, that's just fact. There's no there's no opinion there. So in terms of you guys and I mean, you say you're you're mainly working in the education space. What is it that you've seen? I mean, you've you've mentioned some things, but I'm really curious to say what is to to see what is it that you have seen that is some of the most significant effects. Have you got any other stories about individuals who have started using some of your stuff and they've seen some dramatic change? Or, I mean, I'm hoping you've got some. I'm putting you on the spot now.

Simon Ursell [00:45:05]:
And while you're just thinking about that, I I also think you're much more likely to be able to go and have a word with your boss about those things if you've seen him dancing with his eyes closed. So I think there's much more likely that you're gonna say, actually, can I have a lunch break, please, Simon? Well, I mean,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:20]:
the interesting thing and that that's a great point, actually.

Simon Ursell [00:45:21]:
Because the

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:21]:
interesting thing about that is a couple of the guys who I didn't know so well, who who are fairly new, they they were they've been since we've had that, they've been talking to me, contact me. And one of the things I hate is when I don't feel that much of a connection with everybody at Tardigrange, and it gets harder because we're quite big now. It gets harder and harder and harder, but them seeing me being playful and getting stuck in and having a having a great time means they they they see the human, don't they? And then they've all contacted me a heck of a lot more than they I think they would've done if they hadn't done it.

Adam Lusby [00:45:54]:
Rusty Simon is getting constant Elmos as well. Yeah. I mean, this this is a double edged sword, isn't it, Simon, for you? Because you brought your team down.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:03]:
It's helpful.

Adam Lusby [00:46:03]:
And they learned

Simon Ursell [00:46:04]:
Did he get lots of Elmos?

Adam Lusby [00:46:05]:
They learned Elmo. And I need to explain to the listeners what Elmo is. Did you

Simon Ursell [00:46:08]:
get Elmos?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:09]:
I get Elmos every day.

Simon Ursell [00:46:12]:
Of course you do.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:13]:
Yeah. But I just I'm a passionate guy.

Simon Ursell [00:46:15]:
Right. I love it now.

Adam Lusby [00:46:16]:
Listeners, man. Explain what Elmo is and why we use it.

Maarten Koeners [00:46:19]:
Well well, Elmo has become a bit of a symbol for for what we've been doing is that it is really clearly a fluffy, cute, Sesame Street, stuffed animal. Is that the word for a teddy toy? Yeah. A toy. And play can be like that. But it and how we see it is for going a bit more deeper. It also stands for an acronym, ELMO, Enough. Let's move on. And, that is very helpful in a situation where there's a conversation that doesn't go anywhere.

Maarten Koeners [00:46:52]:
And then you can show an Elmo to indicate that enough, let's move on.

Adam Lusby [00:46:57]:
And I I think that probably the point being that we give ourselves more Elmos than anyone else. So, like, we give them to ourselves and then I

Maarten Koeners [00:47:03]:
have never been I've never been able to finish my 150 slides on neuroscience played. Sorry. That's my fault.

Adam Lusby [00:47:09]:
But we also give ourselves, Elmo's. To to answer the the question before about, you know, maybe an individual story Sorry.

Simon Ursell [00:47:16]:
And the Elmo is a serious thing though, isn't it? It's about leveling the room. It's about

Adam Lusby [00:47:20]:
Oh, yeah. It's about is it like you've got a big character like Simon in the room. Right? Massive character, lots of power, disproportionate

Simon Ursell [00:47:27]:
that said. Keep going.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:28]:
Keep going. Keep going. Keep going.

Simon Ursell [00:47:29]:
Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going. Keep going.

Simon Ursell [00:47:29]:
Keep going. Keep going. Keep keep

Adam Lusby [00:47:29]:
keep disproportionate powers, you know, in terms of high Iraqi that sort of showing

Simon Ursell [00:47:33]:
Likely to use that power

Adam Lusby [00:47:35]:
Yeah. Likely to use that

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:36]:
By making major shapes.

Adam Lusby [00:47:37]:
Making major shapes. And so to to how does somebody who maybe is quiet introvert, who has an amazing idea get, you know, get Simon to shut up? And so the Elmo is this incredible leveler, as you say, of the room. It's okay. Here we go. Here's here's the Elmo because this conversation's been going around a little bit, and we just need to move on. But it also creates space then for others to to to jump in.

Simon Ursell [00:48:02]:
Yeah. And you had another you have a cookie monster or crower or to to Oh,

Adam Lusby [00:48:06]:
we've got we've got the whole family in Windrush.

Simon Ursell [00:48:07]:
And then even even just having Elmo in the room is is will make Simon think a little bit more, won't it? So this is but this is serious business. Again, I don't want people to think that this isn't serious.

Adam Lusby [00:48:17]:
Yeah. So it's well, is it serious? It's it's it's a way of engaging playfully, and creating some norms that allow us to socialize. Yeah. So again, pro social spaces are not where, the big silverback is dominating the room or the top.

Simon Ursell [00:48:35]:
He's a jolly. I am

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:36]:
still loving being called a big silverback. I mean, everything about this conversation is awesome.

Simon Ursell [00:48:40]:
And so

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:41]:
But Elmer is cool. I love being Elmer.

Adam Lusby [00:48:43]:
And that's that that is that and it's it's lovely to have a Simon who actually engages in it and and play and and then once it's playful, it can you know, you can it creates this space, and that's and that's that's the importance of that. Again, coming back to a prosocial space rather than a nonsocial dominated space by by one by one person or 2 people in the room. We've all been in meetings where one person has just or 2 people have just taken their ideas, and everyone else have sat to sit sit back and and follow. And even though that idea everyone else in the room thinks that idea is not not great.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:16]:
Yep. Great. Great. Great. Holding yourself back there. Well done. I'm gonna use the ultimate Elmer because we're gonna have to try and wrap things up. You had a story, that I really wanna hear.

Adam Lusby [00:49:25]:
Yeah. So it's not about an individual. It's about us engaging with colleagues who are already on the playful journey, and awakening the idea that, just because you're researching play or you're you you can see the science of play, the challenge we bring into every room is that's great to have the science, but you have to have a playful stance. So we through multiple rooms, we have created the we've we've created the space for them to engage with their playful self. There's a really powerful, tool called Playful Histories which, Stuart Brown developed, and others others use. And we have we have used that to really pull out of people that their playful stance. And in doing so, the the changes that they they're no longer just talking about play. They are actually playing.

Maarten Koeners [00:50:24]:
And and the the changes they talk about and share with us is about themselves, not necessarily the work they're doing. And that's, that's a big thing. When we are, giving experiences around play is to discover what does it mean for yourself and how can you apply that in your world. And there's not a set framework that you go through, you do this, and then everything will be playful. It is actually you are here in the room, and you are gonna do the work to see what play means for you. And that is gonna be uncomfortable sometimes. And and we believe really strongly that learning can only happen when there's some level of uncomfortableness, embraced. Because if if you're very comfortable, then you know already everything and there's no learning.

Maarten Koeners [00:51:11]:
And maybe it comes, because we shared about the major shapes that I think of, one of the feedback that we we what we got what we think is a really good feedback that, shared uncomfortableness can be very powerful as well in in a in a in this situation.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:25]:
Hear that. Hear that. Thank you so much for coming on. It's been absolutely fascinating. I'm looking forward to seeing you guys again soon.

Adam Lusby [00:51:33]:
Thank you very much.

Simon Ursell [00:51:34]:
Thank you. Over and out.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:37]:
Well, that was, that was, as amazing as I thought it was gonna be, and I didn't get too l made. So I'm quite pleased with myself.

Simon Ursell [00:51:44]:
I was

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:44]:
quite to shut up.

Simon Ursell [00:51:45]:
I was quite, like, excited about how excited you're about being called a silverback.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:51]:
Yes. Well, I've got silver hair on my face. So, yeah, maybe it's that.

Simon Ursell [00:51:55]:
Look a little bit like a gorilla, maybe a

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:58]:
bit like a gorilla. Yeah. That's so true. But, yeah, there's some these guys are amazing. I mean, I encourage anybody listening to this to to engage with them. You know, they've got these amazing courses you can go on. Please give it a go because it is pretty incredible stuff. I mean, I I think I think it's amazing.

Simon Ursell [00:52:21]:
What were your top 2 bit?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:23]:
Well, my first one, was the prosocial spaces. I mean, I I mean, anybody listening to this regularly knows environment is big for bounce back ability and I'm pretty obsessed with environment, their creation of spaces that are prosocial, I thought that was fascinating and one of the things I think that's really got me thinking is the individualization because I'm I was thinking possibly wrongly before I came into this podcast, having been on the course, which is kinda making me feel a bit embarrassed, not so much of a silverback now, am I? Was I thought you know you could create a space that was pro social, but the point they're making is you've got to create a space that can be lots of different things so that individual teams, individual people, individual organizations can create a space that is prosocial for them, which is gonna be different. So, yeah, I I think environment's huge. There are some absolute nuggets in this podcast that I I hope spread the word a bit that people can take away. The super flexible, places are really bouncy. You really bounce back in a place where you can be quiet or extrovert or introvert or play music or not play music or meditate or play games.

Simon Ursell [00:53:41]:
Well well, let me just, like, build on that with my first bit, and I was just thinking there about Jacob and Margo who who never sat in the chair with England under 18s, like, he just would sit on the floor or sit on the beanbag and could be himself. But, like, the opposite is depression.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:58]:
Oh, yeah. That I mean, that that almost hurt me, that phrase. It's a realization, isn't it?

Simon Ursell [00:54:04]:
So if you think about, like, yourself as a leader and some of the environments and and the things that you're doing, like, are not helping other people's brains.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:14]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, wow. I mean, the opposite of of a prosocial space is a depress is depression.

Simon Ursell [00:54:21]:
Yeah. And so I talk about loneliness. And so, look, it it definitely, like I guess, you know, the implications of getting this right or wrong are probably pretty important.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:30]:
And I'm thinking now about Tyler Grange and an office space we've got where all the desks are fixed, they're literally bolted together, where you can't move stuff around, where you have to sit in a certain place, be a certain way, am I? Is that a resilient? Is that a bouncy space? No it's not.

Simon Ursell [00:54:46]:
You know what I love about TG though? Do you know the one thing that I love the most in a walk in is?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:50]:
Is it me?

Simon Ursell [00:54:52]:
It's not a silverback. It's, it's dogs.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:57]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:54:57]:
Is it already immediately, like, signals that this is a place where it's not the same as ever else? You can you can bring your pets to work.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:05]:
Yeah. That's getting kinda more common though. It's not just a TG thing, but you're right. We've always had dogs. I mean, right from the very start, I mean yeah. Well well, we're we're kind of we we love animals, don't we? Ecologists that say having dogs in the office is is so nice as well that because, you know, you sat at your desk and a dog wanders up and you can give it a straight. If you're feeling a bit stressed, that is gonna help massively. So, yeah, dogs are cool.

Simon Ursell [00:55:26]:
What's your second thing?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:29]:
I really liked the, idea that the people who are most resistant when they start their course are the ones that become the most into it at the end. And and we saw that when we went with Tyler Grange. So those that were most sort of what the heck is this? This is a bit weird. At the end had really understood and were I guess there must be something about the way that they interact, their brains work, interacted with the course that really helped that I don't really I mean, we

Simon Ursell [00:56:01]:
I love the way you're trying to be a neuroscientist.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:06]:
Finn Walsh.

Maarten Koeners [00:56:07]:
Well, I

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:07]:
don't I mean, I don't know. That's the point, isn't it? I I don't actually understand why, but it but it but it definitely did and they said that's what they they see all the time as well. And I think, you know, I guess the real point to that is this is really about, everybody getting involved with trying to make work, trying to make organizations more bouncy, is is trying to inject a bit of prosocial enjoyment play into your work because you're just gonna be better at whatever it is you're trying to achieve.

Simon Ursell [00:56:40]:
Yeah. To build on that, my second thing really is the the impact it has on you. So as a leader, a coach, a teacher, a lecturer, whatever it might be like, this, you know, doing this course thinking more playfully about how you work is probably gonna mean you live a little bit longer. Might increase your engagement, might mean you have more impact on people. And I know that one of the things they talk a lot about is these kind of small sneaky experiments, but

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:07]:
Yeah. The 4 s's, isn't it? And I can't I can't

Simon Ursell [00:57:09]:
remember what that was. Sneaky, soon, specific.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:12]:
Yeah. So again, I think it's

Simon Ursell [00:57:13]:
even just try it

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:13]:
for a little bit.

Simon Ursell [00:57:19]:
I was in the business yesterday and we were talking about like how you get the best out of people and one guy was talking about I book in an hour a week to daydream and, and some people are like oh my god like I would never dream of doing that. Well why don't you just try it for a month, like have a little experiment, see if you get the best out of people that if they have you know an hour a week or 2 hours a week or whatever it is to go and do something that might be daydreaming, might be doing exercise that's gonna help them get the best out of themselves. So, yeah, for me it was it was that that actually like, yeah, tied in with like how we get the best out of people, but, like, this isn't just about this is about the leader as well.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:55]:
It sure is. I'm I'm in I'm off I'm very excited because in a couple of weeks' time, so after this podcast has gone out, before this podcast goes out, rather, I'm I'm gonna go and spend I'm spending a week. I'm doing a, 5 day course in the in the play lab, so I'm gonna be the the most playful person around. That should freak a few people out.

Simon Ursell [00:58:15]:
I look forward to you running around with double and dice and elbows and all those types of things.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:58:20]:
Yeah. It's gonna be fun. Alright. Nice one. Great party again.

Simon Ursell [00:58:23]:
Over and out. Thanks so much for joining us on the Vance Speculative Podcast with Sam in Bristol. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can they reach you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:58:34]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursell, u r s for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Simon Ursell [00:58:40]:
Tik Tok? No. Not really. LinkedIn, Ross Lansaw. And then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:58:48]:
Yeah. Second that.

Simon Ursell [00:58:50]:
Over and out.