The Unseen Effort: Heather Fisher on Resilience, Authenticity, and Finding Purpose | Episode 16

In today's episode we are joined by Birmingham-based Olympic rugby player and former GB bobsledder, Heather Fisher. Heather is an accomplished elite athlete, motivational speaker, LGBT advocate and media personality with her own BBC radio podcast.

After a difficult start in life, Heather quickly found she excelled in the sports arena. Breaking her back in four places in her late 20s left her in a back brace for 18 months and triggered alopecia which impacted her self-confidence and self-perception. Never to be held down, she learnt to crawl, walk and finally run again before returning to international sport and was quickly back at the top of her game. Rugby highlights include competing in five Rugby World Cups and winning in 2014, winning four Six Nations, medalling at the Commonwealth Games and representing Team GB in the Olympic Games Rio 2016. 

Since retiring as an athlete, she has become an accomplished motivational speaker, MC and event host and has taken on a number of TV and radio opportunities. Building on her stint on Celebrity SAS Who Dares Wins, she became a celebrity warrior on BBC survival show Go Hard or Go Home. Heather also does extensive charity work raising money for young people with autism and for those with alopecia.

Heather's story is one of determination, personal growth, and the pursuit of creating positive impact. Get ready for an enlightening and inspiring discussion on life behind the scenes in  elite sports, career transitions, authenticity, and finding one's true purpose in life. Tune in for an episode filled with valuable insights and wisdom from Heather!

In this episode:

00:00 Heather’s struggle with identity, on and off the pitch.

13:16 Life after rugby – how Heather’s fear of rejection and judgement lead to a dangerous lack of motivation.

43:55 Seeking reasons and explanations – why we need to care more about individuals and less about labels.

49:44 Personal growth – what Heather’s decision to prioritise clarity of her situation over people pleasing taught her about the importance of individualised support.

01:02:57 Taking opportunities - Heather’s brave step into an exciting venture with international electric scooter racing.

01:04:39 The bigger picture - embracing her charity and endeavouring towards a new, more informed and inclusive world.

01:09:58 Life lessons - the importance of giving time and space for working through issues and allowing your authentic self to develop.

Connect with Heather here:

Website: http://heatherfisher.co.uk/

Instagram: @heatherfish29

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the bounce back ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell [00:00:08]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on. Hi there, everyone. Welcome to Bounce Back Ability podcast. Rusty, who have we got on today?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:16]:
Good to see everyone. We have got Heather Fisher live from the Birmingham Telegraph office joining us.

Simon Ursell [00:00:22]:
Yep. Really excited about it. Let's get her on. Thank

Heather Fisher [00:00:27]:
You know how I'm you know how to sync to biome?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:29]:
We're we're

Simon Ursell [00:00:29]:
now we're now recording.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:30]:
There you go.

Heather Fisher [00:00:30]:
You know how to sync to biome? Ask a question.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:33]:
Well, just to give you context, like, we've been chatting for a while, and Simon's made us press record. So

Simon Ursell [00:00:38]:
Heather Heather made me press record.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:40]:
There wasn't anyone.

Heather Fisher [00:00:41]:
Otherwise, you miss the sweet bits.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:43]:
Yeah. No.

Heather Fisher [00:00:43]:
And the and the question you asked me, my growth since coming out has been insane. And the moment was got a new agent, commercial, and turning me into a brand. We talk about people being brands, and I'm kind of being turned into a brand. Yep. Personal brand. Time. It takes the right people to be aligned with. It takes we're having to build momentum.

Heather Fisher [00:01:09]:
But to build momentum, we have to create something. So we've had to create and build, and then I'm being thrown in the deep end, like, fish, go there. Fish that. Fish that. And I'm just having to respond, get instant feedback, and go again. And that's what that's that's basically what I'm doing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:27]:
Yeah. III as I just said to you earlier, like, I look at you on Instagram and we've had Phoebe on the pod and, you're the 2 most the 2 people whose lives I look at and go, you you look busy. And I was thinking about it going, oh my god. This must be, like, really challenging.

Heather Fisher [00:01:43]:
I find it a challenge because I'm so used to turning up with a set schedule, being told where to be, what to do, what to wear. And I'm following the crowd. And I'm always happy to follow a crowd, but I'm also being and you know this. I've also very much been a unique person within a crowd. And now I'm at the forefront. And, actually, I'm probably not ready to be at the forefront yet. It's the truth. But we have to you dress for how you wanna be.

Heather Fisher [00:02:08]:
Right? And you show up to where to where you wanna be, not you you don't just get out of bed and go, well, this is how I feel today. I dress because of where I want to be, and I turn up. And I and I I'm putting the miles in because of where I want to be. And I'm I'm looking forward not here. I'm not in the present moment. I'm fucking forward all the time.

Simon Ursell [00:02:26]:
Where do you wanna

Heather Fisher [00:02:27]:
be? A couple of things. Scary to say, but I've started admitting it. I want to go into presenting. I want to go into breakfast presenting. I I want to make documentaries. I want to be a strong woman who tells the stories that people don't wanna don't wanna hear, but they do really wanna hear. I wanna hear about different cultures and strong females. Yeah.

Heather Fisher [00:02:47]:
Females who are on the rise. I wanna be inside prisons. I wanna be in different countries. I wanna be telling the stories that people go, woah. You asked that question, and I got an answer. I wanna be that storyteller. That's what I that's what I'm aiming for.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:00]:
Stop it. And do you know what I think of when I see you?

Simon Ursell [00:03:02]:
Go on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:03]:
Llamas. What? What? Because didn't you have like llamas or alpacas?

Heather Fisher [00:03:10]:
Had both.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:10]:
Had both.

Heather Fisher [00:03:11]:
Llamas and alpacas and wallabies.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:13]:
And then the other thing I think about is when you said the way you dress, like, every time I look at you, like, you're wearing a new outfit. And I also think it's like, as you say, like, you're kind of preying the norms and not trying to conform and

Heather Fisher [00:03:27]:
The thing is I'm not trying. I think, this is the Sorry.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:29]:
Not trying, but you're being yourself.

Heather Fisher [00:03:31]:
I think this is what I've always struggled if I'm totally honest. People that I think I've gone through a time in my life where people think I'm trying to be different. I'm not. I think I've I've gone we're going through ADHD and autism tests at the moment. It doesn't surprise, probably, many people. But I think I've always tried to fit into a system. That system just happened to be England rugby. And I can fit into a system.

Heather Fisher [00:03:50]:
I can fit into any box I'm putting, but I don't fit into 1 box. I fit into so many. And then when I lost my hair, I I didn't know who I was. And you were there in the system when I kind of started to go through the wig process. I didn't know who I was. Still trying to compete on a world stage. I still believe we're in a time where the character that you're on the pitch people believe is what you are off the pitch, And I wasn't. I would come to life on the pitch and be an absolute animal, but off the pitch, actually quite chilled and relaxed.

Heather Fisher [00:04:15]:
But I felt like I had to be more larger than life and be more than life to show up for what I didn't have, which was my hair, because it changed the way that people looked at me and the way I was treated. So it changed a lot. And then it that took time for me to process. And I still had to be brave on the pitch, but off the pitch, I just wanted to hide away. And there was a difference in character, and people couldn't really work me out because you think I was putting it on. But actually, I'd on the pitch was character, And then away from the pitch was fish. But I was always in the pitch so people see the character.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:04:47]:
You're deadly on the pitch.

Heather Fisher [00:04:49]:
Yeah. Salaam. Yeah. I bet you are.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:04:53]:
Your passing could have been better. Yeah. But you but you,

Heather Fisher [00:04:55]:
I'll never forget the conversation when you came out to me for the Olympics. Sorry. But, no, it's the best thing ever, wasn't it? And you said like, Fish, you gotta work on your left hand otherwise you won't be selected. I I just remember that conversation being, like, a bit more gentle than that, but, yeah, like, sort of out fish. And no 1 would no

Simon Ursell [00:05:10]:
1 Russell, Ange.

Heather Fisher [00:05:11]:
Yeah. But no 1

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:12]:
Well, it's not it's a dereliction of duty for someone not to tell you that.

Heather Fisher [00:05:15]:
My left I completely agree, and you cared. And that that showed in your your work ethic and what you expected of your players. Like, you put your time into players who wanted to work hard and who were gonna actually move. And I appreciated that. No 1 knows this because I think coaches only see what they wanna see, and coaches only see if it's in front of the players' eyes, vice versa. But I would wake up at, like, sometimes 5 in the morning, 6 in the morning, and do my passing before I'd even left the house against a wall with a football.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:41]:
Doesn't surprise me.

Heather Fisher [00:05:43]:
And no 1 would know it. And because I wasn't the last on the pitch or the first on, didn't mean that I didn't work. I'd done I'd done my work. I was I did my work ready to go to work, all waited. No 1 saw it. And that's okay, but I knew it. But that's how I was, I think, mis judged because I would just show up. And then I would as soon as it was, like, whistle went, off you go.

Heather Fisher [00:06:04]:
I would I would go because I've already done my work. But people coaches will see that and go, oh, that player's great. They love it because they're staying here longer. What about players who got up at, like I would get up as soon as 5 half 5 ready to be on the pitch for, like, when we had

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:21]:
to be in for 8. So I'd be in for 7 to be in the

Heather Fisher [00:06:22]:
gym first, prep all my body. So when it's time to go on the pitch at 8 or at on the pitch for 9, I was not just ready or building, I was built. That's how I saw it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:32]:
Do you think so?

Heather Fisher [00:06:32]:
Can you see that? Can you see that now I've said it to you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:35]:
Yeah. But I knew that about you anyway.

Heather Fisher [00:06:37]:
But some But

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:38]:
I also can see the coaches' mistake. Look look for things that aren't necessarily the right things to look for.

Heather Fisher [00:06:46]:
And I never spoke about it. I didn't feel the need. I knew. And I think that sometimes been my be my biggest it's been my strength because it's got me to where I have, but I was capable of so much more of a coach who saw it. But I didn't feel the need to go, hey. Look at me. Can you look at what I'm doing? This is what I've done this morning. I'm gonna send you video evidence.

Heather Fisher [00:07:04]:
I didn't feel the need of anything, and I and I get frustrated that players and people are out there going, look at me, look at me. Just get on with it and do your work. And I believe that cream rises to the top. And it might take time, and time's okay.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:16]:
Do you think, Koji's got the best out of you?

Heather Fisher [00:07:18]:
Oh, hell no. No. Have

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:20]:
a think about it.

Heather Fisher [00:07:22]:
No. Hell no. Didn't. No. You you put a thing on it, plurals. Coaches didn't know. Certain individuals did. I see.

Heather Fisher [00:07:29]:
You, you're 1 of them without shadow of a doubt. Otherwise, I wouldn't

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:31]:
be here. I didn't even coach you that

Heather Fisher [00:07:33]:
much. I'm a push saying that. No. But you but you when you when you it's not about the length of time someone coaches you. It's how they coach you when they turn up. And, for me, when you turned up, players shied away from you because they didn't like hard work. And you said what they didn't want to hear. I actually really appreciate someone being honest and saying, that's not good enough.

Heather Fisher [00:07:53]:
Sort it out. Cool. Now I know. I can work on it. If I didn't know, I didn't couldn't work on it. And, also, if I was a shit a play who shied away from stuff, I wouldn't wanna own it because I couldn't have bothered. But, actually, I was always bothered. I've always been bothered.

Heather Fisher [00:08:05]:
Simon Amor. Yeah. Always believed in me, always saw me for me. Always knew that I would put the work in, and trusted me on the pitch to be my authentic self, and trusted me, gave me the license alongside James Bailey. They're the 3 who've got the best out of me.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:19]:
And and the last thing you made me think of, when you talk about you being your authentic self is is you having a little bird on your shoulder.

Heather Fisher [00:08:27]:
Which 1? Always got birds on my shoulders.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:32]:
Yeah. I don't remember

Heather Fisher [00:08:33]:
someone telling me Tiny Tim.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:34]:
Tiny Tim was an actual physical bird that you'd befriended Yeah. And was, like, living on your shoulder.

Heather Fisher [00:08:39]:
Should we give this context? The context was you're getting ready for game day. Get get ready for game day. It's a tournament. And, this bird having breakfast in in downstairs, and this bird just flew into the window. And it, like, hit the window and just flopped on the floor. I felt that I I'm the sort of person who if I'm about to treading a worm, I move the worm out the way. That's kind of like what I'm like. I just I just don't think it's very nice.

Heather Fisher [00:09:00]:
I won't like a trombone. And I went outside and picked this bird up. I was like, come on. I brought it back to life and gave it a stroke, gave it some water, stuck up my shoulder, and it just started tweeting away. It must have sat on my shoulder while I got my kit ready, went to the toilet, I had a quick shower, ripped, ripped, ripped, just sat on my shoulder the whole time.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:18]:
Wow.

Heather Fisher [00:09:18]:
And then it came it started tweeted, tweet tweet tweet. I was like, he's coming back to life. And then setting free. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:09:24]:
That's nice.

Heather Fisher [00:09:26]:
I just think it's nice to be a good person. I don't think you need to shout about it. And it comes back to what we said earlier. It's not I'm not trying to be different. I just I believe in my values. I'm very values driven. I believe in if you like so what a coach said to me once, Fish, do you give do do you care that people, what is it like? Do you care that people, like, see you in a different light or people think you're not bothered? I went, no. Because if they if they get to know me, they'll say I'm bothered.

Heather Fisher [00:09:53]:
You're not you're not you you would you'll see it and you'll probably hear my voice if you just held a conversation with me. And you ask me, there's power in asking the right question. No no no pressure. But there's power in the question.

Simon Ursell [00:10:05]:
Yeah. Okay. We're not feeling any pressure now.

Heather Fisher [00:10:07]:
But you don't mean there's power in the question. As coaches, you have to ask the right question. Everything that comes out your mouth has to have a reason. Because athletes and players and high like, high high high achievers, whether it's in business, whether it's in entertainment, whether it's in sport, people but you're you're trained to give the right answer, but actually to get to know someone for and for someone to bring their authentic self, they have to have time, but you have to get to know your people. You have to ask the right question. I don't think enough people do ask the right question.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:36]:
Serena Vigman said that and she said that

Heather Fisher [00:10:38]:
Issue.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:38]:
I learned that, to be a better leader, I just had to ask better questions.

Heather Fisher [00:10:42]:
Yeah. Because we've you know, we all do it every day. How are you? Yeah. I'm fine. Actually, not fine. I'm actually really struggling. But to have the time and to have the right question is really important.

Simon Ursell [00:10:51]:
Yeah. Not to shy away from it, and have that interest. It's important. Really important, isn't it?

Heather Fisher [00:10:56]:
And it's in sport. Like, we talk about culture, we talk about environment, we talk about values, but we all talk. Like, just do the doing. Just do the doing. If you put, like and guys I prefer to train with the guys because guys just did. Girls had to chat a lot. And I'm like, no. Just get the reps in.

Heather Fisher [00:11:09]:
Just keep moving. Get the reps in. III know I did wrong. I can feel it because I was a very instinctive player. I can feel it. It's okay. I need to go again until I get it right. It's okay.

Heather Fisher [00:11:18]:
But the guys just get on with it, and they can draw the lines and think faster than females. I don't know why that is. Got the answer?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:26]:
I wouldn't generalize, but I yeah. Again I'm

Heather Fisher [00:11:29]:
not gonna don't generalize what I'm going to.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:31]:
Yeah. You've I know. I know. I'm not gonna generalize. No. No. No. My ex my experience isn't necessarily always that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:38]:
So I coached the 18's girls. There were some good players in there. The Sarah Burns and the Emmy, Kukens of this world, and they will

Heather Fisher [00:11:44]:
a good player. Yeah. Person.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:45]:
They will be willing to just do it. I've coached fellas that haven't been able to, I think it's it's it's it comes down to individuals. I was curious, actually. So, so you've obviously had this kind of huge kind of growth over the last few years, and 1 of the things I see is that you're kind of sharing your story with lots of people. What are the 2 or 3 things that you you've kind of reflected on and gone, this is the stuff that I'm hopefully trying to make other people aware of so that they might be able to make the same leaps I've made?

Heather Fisher [00:12:23]:
Couple of things. The first thing is, when I came out of the system, I see it took me time to recover especially after pulling it out of Tokyo. That that I found that really difficult. So it took my time to recover. And then once I met my agent, my current agent now, Katie, Katie Traxton, she's been like a force of life within me. And I didn't see that I could light up the world again. Once I pulled out of rugby and I was I was like, that's done. I remember sending an email to hates and he was like, fishy shore.

Heather Fisher [00:12:54]:
And I was like, I'm 99.999%. I'm sure I'm out now. And he was like, you sure? I'm like, I think, yeah. Because I think you always push for more, don't you? And as an athlete, like, you always push. There's always something to aim for. Right? That and then all my operations, my nose up, my my knee up, my ankle in the boot, like, all had to recover. It took a good year. So even though I was out, I wasn't out out of system because I still had to have so much done.

Heather Fisher [00:13:16]:
Then I started training. And going back to what what the leap has been, the that was the that was the first the the first the first sweet point after coming out of rugby and regraduating from rugby was I had the fire in my belly to want to go again, to aim, to to put myself back on a pedestal to want to go again. And I think when you come out of sport, I didn't have the passion to wanna go again. I was scared of scared of going again because I've gotta go through all the yeses, all the noes. There's so many noes. All the noes. I've gotta go through what people think of you, what boxes you fit into, where you fit into the wider team. And I wasn't ready yet.

Heather Fisher [00:13:53]:
I wasn't ready for my lessons to be thrown at me just yet. I wasn't ready for the failures. Wasn't ready. And so it's taken me there was 2 prominent points where I remember just thinking, I'm not scared now. I've put myself out there to say that's what I want to be. And I'm and I'm aware it will take time. But it's we've got, like, a 5 year plan.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:13]:
What were the 2 points?

Heather Fisher [00:14:16]:
1 was coming out and realize 1 was coming out and having a purpose. That's the first 1.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:21]:
Yep.

Heather Fisher [00:14:22]:
And refocusing myself. Focus and purpose is it drives everything insanely. So that gave me, like, right. I'm on a mission again. I love being on a mission. Then, obviously, I had a no. That brought it back down to life, and I'm still struggling with that no now of everything. Because I know that I tick all the boxes, and I know what I did really well at.

Heather Fisher [00:14:42]:
But, obviously, it wasn't meant to be. And then the second 1 was, all this talking and presenting stuff I've been doing, I'm really scared. And there's so much growth to be said when you're scared. I don't think I don't I don't want to be uncomfortable all the time. I wanna get used to it. But to befriend to befriend the feelings of being scared and anxious, you have to be willing to surround yourself in them. And I think that's the bit we're in now. On Saturday, I'm hosting Brompton's Bikes.

Heather Fisher [00:15:08]:
I'm on stage for 2 and a half hours in front of thousands of people interviewing the CEO of Brompton Bikes.

Simon Ursell [00:15:17]:
Oh, you'll kill that, I'm sure.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:15:19]:
That's very cool.

Simon Ursell [00:15:19]:
Never done it.

Heather Fisher [00:15:20]:
Never done it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:15:21]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm,

Heather Fisher [00:15:22]:
So every experience I have at the moment is completely new.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:15:25]:
It's cool,

Heather Fisher [00:15:27]:
Scary because I can go wrong and you're exposed. But in rugby, you can go wrong and you're exposed, but you don't know you you spent 70, 80% on all your processes and systems, and then you have to go and deliver. Now I'm, like, being exposed and having to deliver all in the same time.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:15:44]:
Do you feel like you're, you're practicing on the job or you're actually, okay, cool, or practicing in between?

Heather Fisher [00:15:50]:
No. Both.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:15:51]:
Because I I my sense is, again, that's 1 of the differentiators of sport from a field since we practice lots. Whereas business or as you're talking, like, sometimes you're you're just on stage the whole time. You're showing up. You're having to be We're

Heather Fisher [00:16:04]:
showing up. I'm I think there's a lot of bravery and to be said, and resilience and bounce ability in just showing up, having the courage just to show up.

Simon Ursell [00:16:13]:
Yeah. You kinda have to do that in business. I don't think you

Heather Fisher [00:16:16]:
can do that. I mean, in any walk of life, you have to show up.

Simon Ursell [00:16:19]:
Mhmm. So, I mean, there's a couple of things

Heather Fisher [00:16:21]:
that By the way, it's really hard to sit in here. You know? Have you have tried to have you tried have you sat here and hosted a pod in my seat now?

Simon Ursell [00:16:29]:
Yeah. Yeah. I've I've Do you

Heather Fisher [00:16:30]:
not find those those things behind those walls they're like, make your eyes go funny?

Simon Ursell [00:16:34]:
Well, they aren't.

Heather Fisher [00:16:35]:
They make your eyes go really funny.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:37]:
Just look at me. Don't look

Heather Fisher [00:16:38]:
at me. Yeah. Don't look at you. I'm like

Simon Ursell [00:16:39]:
Don't look at Simon. Just yeah. Don't look at me.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:41]:
And by the way, this is the first time he he's hasn't told you how to use the microphones.

Simon Ursell [00:16:46]:
No. You're staying in there. I Rast, he's hopeless with microphones.

Heather Fisher [00:16:49]:
Well, he I see that he's been doing this.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:50]:
Before you ask You've

Heather Fisher [00:16:51]:
been hitting the desk, and that's really naughty for a microphone. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:16:54]:
It is. Really. It

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:54]:
is. Sorry. Yeah. Before I ask you a question, can I ask you 1 more question? So when you talk about noes, I'm really interested in noes because my sense is your noes. They got capital letters and exclamation mark after them sometimes. And it also made me think about some questions.

Heather Fisher [00:17:08]:
Mean? What do you explain yourself?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:10]:
Well, they're obviously quite significant to you. Like, you've had some noes, and they've led to growth. And sometimes people get nos, and it doesn't it just continues. It it doesn't have enough

Heather Fisher [00:17:20]:
Only continues if you're not willing to see the opportunity in a no.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:23]:
Yeah. And it made me think a bit about, can't remember who told me this, but 1 of the things when with the with the women when they were selecting was when you went in the selection meeting, you were allowed to take a partner in with you or something? Is that true?

Heather Fisher [00:17:36]:
I don't know. I didn't.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:37]:
Okay. No. It might have been someone else talking to me about that. But, again, I just imagine as a as an athlete and also beyond that,

Heather Fisher [00:17:44]:
I would stayed went through England though. I'm gonna say if you want support, you can take someone in with you. I remember that, but I didn't.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:49]:
Right. But just that, like, we get a lot of nos in sport. Yeah. Especially when we start talking about big events like World Cups and Olympics and Commonwealth, and you've been fortunate enough to play in lots of those, but you've also had lots of noes. I'm just curious as to

Heather Fisher [00:18:05]:
how those noes

Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:06]:
have helped you.

Heather Fisher [00:18:07]:
The noes have helped me, but they're not well, they haven't helped oh, have they helped me? They've given me I am I am a really strong character. Like, strong. Not just physically, I mean mentally. Like, mentally, I'm strong. I'm really resilient. And I say that because I think I bounce back. I'm prouder of everything that I've gone through more so than on the pitch and any medal. Right? Because I think I could've given up and left so many times over.

Heather Fisher [00:18:34]:
It's given me that resilience. But resilience now in the entertainment world is very different. Because in sport, if I'm not good enough, I can go. I get it. I didn't get selective for the World Cup final, but I wasn't at my best. I'd just come back from money up, and they rushed me back to try and train for sevens. So I never played 15th going to the World Cup. Who does that? And I I said to my coach I said to my coach for the World Cup that we won.

Heather Fisher [00:18:57]:
I said, I'm not ready. III feel lost on the pitch. And you we've got a World Cup year and you've sent me over to sevens to try and compete over there. You just think I can walk over to 15s and they're complete different codes and I'm not ready. So I could have done a great job, but I wouldn't have done a better job than someone who understood the system. And the facts are, I'm not a systematic player. I'm an incentive player. So I understand why I wouldn't fit into that system.

Heather Fisher [00:19:21]:
So I understand it. Outside of sport in the entertainment world, the noes that I've had in my world helped me go, okay. I get it. I'm strong. But the noes in this world are different. So this is I'm facing different issues. So when you say, has it have the nose helped you? Yes. But this got so many layers.

Heather Fisher [00:19:39]:
I'm so many layered up now. I feel like I've done that. Therefore, the nose here are so the nose here are so small. We measure ourselves in full white lines. And am I the best in the world going against people in my industry? And am I empowering the people next to me on the pitch? And the answer is yes. I can do all that. And can I deliver? Yes. I can deliver.

Heather Fisher [00:20:00]:
But in this world over here, can you be ex can you can you you're gonna be exposed. You're going to grow as you go. People are going to like you. They don't believe in you because they people in the real world, I think, fake it till they make it. Whereas in sport, we're very pragmatic, pragmatic, very stats based, very this is where we are. It it's all ranked. Whereas here, a lot of people in positions, I think, 70% of people are in business leading leading positions where they they don't even know what they're doing. Like, they don't care enough.

Heather Fisher [00:20:28]:
And I'm going to that world going, I care. I can make a difference. Oh, no. But you're not from that world or you've not done that. Well, give me a chance. Oh, no. But you're not you're not done that. It's different.

Heather Fisher [00:20:38]:
I'm not resilient in the entertainment world yet.

Simon Ursell [00:20:43]:
So a couple of questions there. Well, there's a couple of things that you seem to be talking about quite a bit, being your authentic self.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:20:49]:
Mhmm.

Simon Ursell [00:20:50]:
And I love that. That's so cool to hear.

Heather Fisher [00:20:53]:
That shouldn't take trying, should it? That shouldn't take But but it

Simon Ursell [00:20:56]:
does then. And there there are a lot of people that aren't.

Heather Fisher [00:20:58]:
People are trying to be authentic. The authentic people aren't trying to be authentic. Authentic people are actually the ones who have the power to really change the world. Yeah. I truly believe that. Because they just they just do it. I'm not trying I've never tried to be anything different in England. I was I was a knob, and I wanted to be a knob.

Heather Fisher [00:21:12]:
And when I was across the white line across the white line with pure, I'll get better than you, it's performance environment. And I don't think enough people have that performance environment. That I love performance. I love high performance. I love being elite.

Simon Ursell [00:21:25]:
Yeah. That I mean, it comes across. Yeah. It really does. And and the other thing that that seems to be coming up a lot is time. And, you know, you know, you're starting you you've you've moved from being a an amazing rugby player, and now you've got these ambitions to be amazing in a different place. And you're saying, you know, you need some time. And I I really hear that.

Simon Ursell [00:21:46]:
And that's, again,

Heather Fisher [00:21:47]:
this the You wouldn't need you wouldn't need the time, though, if the if the systems you're working in gave you the ability to make yourself a brand while you're in there.

Simon Ursell [00:21:56]:
Sure. And and I guess

Heather Fisher [00:21:57]:
Helped you transition out properly.

Simon Ursell [00:21:59]:
And I guess the purpose of the podcast is to try and understand. I mean, environment comes up on every podcast, doesn't it, Rusty? We pretty much talk about it every time the environment we put people in helps them to be resilient or not, helps them to bounce back or not. You need you need some time to get to where you're going. It shouldn't need that much time though, should it?

Heather Fisher [00:22:23]:
So yeah. I I think what's hard is that a female a female in a male dominated sport still isn't the talk of a city. Like, people talk people think women's sport has made it because the lionesses have made it. The lionesses have been working for so many years. It's like when people go, oh, why you got Olympic medal or you got a World Cup medal. It took years. And the people in the system know you didn't just show up and win a medal. It takes years.

Heather Fisher [00:22:47]:
Mhmm. And people just see the podiums, the spotlights, the wow bit. They forget that someone's gone every day to be the very best they can be until they've made it. People will look people will listen to this maybe, I don't know, years to come and 8 years' time will go, oh, wow. She did struggle. Yeah. I'm in the making. I'm not there yet.

Simon Ursell [00:23:05]:
Yep.

Heather Fisher [00:23:05]:
And I think we don't allow our athletes. I think 1 of the biggest pressure I've had coming out is people going, what's next? What's now? What's now? Yeah. The truth is I haven't always got the answer. My week can change like that Yep. In my in my industry.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:24]:
Who's who's helped you? So sounds like, Katie's helped

Heather Fisher [00:23:28]:
you a lot. So I met Katie. This is a funny story. So, Switch to Play? Switch to Play. They help athletes transition out.

Simon Ursell [00:23:40]:
Right.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:43]:
I'm

Heather Fisher [00:23:43]:
not sure how well they do help players transition out. But that they help me play it transition out.

Simon Ursell [00:23:47]:
Well, they're trying, which is cool.

Heather Fisher [00:23:49]:
And I think there's a lot of people out there going, hey, we'll help you transition out. We'll help you do a CV. We'll help you do that. No. I'm I'm shit hot at what I do. I now just need help to now be put into somewhere, another environment, another high performance environment. I don't need help with my CV. I don't need help with any of that stuff.

Heather Fisher [00:24:04]:
But I need I need opportunity. Because I'm only going to know I don't know what I don't know. Am I only going to know what I what I like when I get put in it? And that's what we I've been figuring out. I've been in this space of figuring out. But switch to play were key, and Rob from switch to play, great guy. He basically said, look, I can't help you. And he said to Katie, who I who's now my agent, apparently, he rang Katie up and said, look, I've I've had the conversation with a girl who had the 1st year. She retired from rugby.

Heather Fisher [00:24:29]:
She done GB bobsleigh. I think she wants to be a firefighter and landscape gardener. She wants to be a dustswimman. And I went through this stage when I retired going, I just wanted I just I don't I could imagine myself, like, doing the bins in the morning because I like getting up earlier and jumping off and jumping off fans. I can imagine being a firefighter through the hose and just getting out late at night and being someone's hero and helping people, because I like helping people in that growth. I like seeing I like seeing success, and I can see it. Right? And then I went through a stage of thinking, oh, I could I could do this and do this. And I had so many jobs that I was almost I had I had so many p 40 fives in my first 8 months.

Heather Fisher [00:25:03]:
It was insane. I had, like, I think I had 3 in 8 months for putting in.

Simon Ursell [00:25:06]:
What what did you do?

Heather Fisher [00:25:07]:
Just a lot of business coaching, like mentorships, leadership stuff, but it was all in boxes. And I found out that I couldn't work in someone else's box. I had to be in my own box. Right? And I was like, no. Not for me. No. Not for me. Not for me.

Heather Fisher [00:25:20]:
Anyway, Rob phoned Katie, who's now my agent, and said, look, I don't know I don't know if you can help this girl, but if anyone's gonna help her, it'll be you. So Katie was like, apparently now Katie tells this story very much like, phone me up. And I was very much, who are you? I had this attitude apparently on the phone that says, who are you? You're not going to help me. And, apparently, within seconds, she was, like, taken by me and just thought, this girl's got something. She could hear it and she just said, right. She and she work she's worked with me now for a year to just go, right. Let's go. And for the 1st 6 months, I played very much, like played it quite cool, like, what are you going to do for me? How are you gonna help me? Type of thing.

Heather Fisher [00:25:57]:
Like like, as if you can help open these doors. Quite sassy. Quite, like, yeah, whatever. Like, I'm a getting paid for that. I'm a getting paid for that. And it was all about the money because when you come out of sport, I haven't got the finances. I've gotta go. I'm a getting paid for that.

Heather Fisher [00:26:10]:
No. But you need the experience. I'm like, excuse me. Do you know what I've done? Do you know what I mean? So I was very much like that. I'm not afraid to say it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:18]:
By the way, I can't imagine you being sassy, so I'm appreciating it. And I'm also appreciating your facials rather than sassy push. You did a great job. Thanks, Rob. Keep it up. Keep it up.

Heather Fisher [00:26:27]:
Because it's true. I think people just forget. Right? And, you know, that that's the truth. That's just being honest. And there was a point where a 6 point marker. Like, I've got 6 months of Katie. We haven't really done a lot. And I remember just saying to her, we haven't done anything.

Heather Fisher [00:26:38]:
What the hell are we doing? She said, right. Let's let's strategize. Let's write down a 100 contacts that we're gonna we're gonna put you out to. And it's a numbers game. And to cut long story short, from there, we wrote contact down. We started to move. We started to get put into rooms. We realized that I was getting interviews for stuff.

Heather Fisher [00:26:57]:
I was realizing that I was getting into rooms. And once I was in the room, I then made a massive difference, and I've stayed in rooms. The hardest part was building the awareness because people were like, outside of rugby, who's fish? So you've had to build the awareness, which is the profile bit. And then once you've got that, then we've had to build the reputation, which is what we're doing at the moment, and then we start to move. And we're still in that building awareness and reputation phase.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:21]:
And just to link it into bounce back ability, like, that that is the thing. So your ability to consistently show up is a good skill to have, isn't it? And then the other thing I was curious about is you mentioned it is and Katie's obviously helped you as well. But what has helped you with transitions? Because people struggle, like, leaving sport, but I guess you're probably also trying to work out entering this new sphere. Like, what have transitions? Like, what does that make you think about?

Heather Fisher [00:27:52]:
It's a real challenge because when you're in sport, people want you to solely focus on sport. And I would have numerous conversations up until Tokyo, and the coaches would call me and speak to me and people you know. And they'll go, fish, we think you're doing too much away from rugby. It's it's, distracting you. The truth is I'm fresher by doing more because I I bounce off different things. I'm fresher when I hit the green grass in the white over the white line. I'm fresher for doing all this over here. It keeps me fresh.

Heather Fisher [00:28:21]:
So, actually, I'm better for doing more. But the people are scared that you're not they put this thing go, are you concentrating? Are you all here? And they put too much emphasis on that. So transition could be, like, be made easier if coaches and environments trusted their people that they're doing what they need for them. Right? Because people do it differently. Not being afraid that if they're doing different things, that they're not concentrating. And then when you come out, I think there's a lot of support, but you don't always need this. You need the support mentally, but you need opportunity. You need people to be willing to open the doors to give you opportunity because you need to earn money.

Heather Fisher [00:29:00]:
There's financial stuff that you need to start thinking about being a female. Obviously, as you know, having a baby as a player with the RFP didn't happen until a year and a half ago. And I was in that era where you it was rugby or that. And I just played kept playing rugby. And you suddenly realize, I I want a family, but I'm nowhere near having a family because I haven't even got a job. I haven't even got a proper role yet. So how can I think about a family when I've not even done this? Whereas a guy can kind of come out and they can go, I've got my family, I've got my stability. That's a distraction, and that is my home.

Heather Fisher [00:29:37]:
Whereas a woman, I think, is still creating that home. I think the FAA are leading the way in that area. So I think there's all that to think about as a female. So, for me, the biggest challenge of transition is we are, I think, the most success successful people in the world, sports people, CEOs, people who set the world on fire. There's naught point naught 1 percent of us out there, I reckon. So it's really hard to to relate to people because people don't know what it's like to be up there. People don't know what it's like to be here. Not many people are up there.

Heather Fisher [00:30:08]:
When I'm with other athletes, I feel we have common conversation. And all of a sudden, I'm like, I fit in. I'm okay. This is normal. I'm I'm normal. In my little sphere, I'm normal, which helps then. So connecting with the right people. People who are opening doors to give you the opportunity, people trusting you that you're okay to make mistakes because you're learning and you're in a complete new environment, but understanding what you bring to the table is their work with you.

Heather Fisher [00:30:35]:
That's what you need when you transition because then you've got your financial security, you've got ambition, but you've got your support network around you. Because your your support network completely changes. I didn't really talk to anyone on Broadway.

Simon Ursell [00:30:46]:
Sure. And it and it sounds like the your resilience, the the ability to to cope with the no's, to deal with the sort of slightly weird decisions that are getting made around you, those things are are helping you, the the the community, the opportunity you're being given, the different things.

Heather Fisher [00:31:06]:
Yeah. And a lot of it, Si, a lot of it is being myself.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:09]:
I couldn't

Heather Fisher [00:31:09]:
be myself in England rugby.

Simon Ursell [00:31:11]:
Sure.

Heather Fisher [00:31:11]:
That was really tough. I couldn't be myself.

Simon Ursell [00:31:13]:
No.

Heather Fisher [00:31:15]:
I tried to always fight to be someone different. And that probably showed itself in well, she's a bit weird. I'm not weird. I'm quirky. I'm not weird. I just had to fight to try and fit into everyone else's, and I wasn't anyone else's mold. I was my own person.

Simon Ursell [00:31:31]:
And is that that character that you described earlier, is that is that what you were and that probably wasn't a very resilient place to be, was it?

Heather Fisher [00:31:38]:
No. I think I've gone through different things. And there was a lot of it. It was triggered by my hair loss. Yeah. So, when I had hair, and this sounds so I've never really spoke about it on a podcast, but when you when I I was always quite attractive, always had guys and girls fancying me, and then I lost my hair. People look at you completely different. Like, who's that? Not not, oh, she or he.

Heather Fisher [00:32:04]:
Who's that? What is it? So you're looked at differently. Then you've got muscles. So you look a really strong, like, fit boy, but I'm fully fem. I've just lost my hair. I've got muscles because I'm striving to be the very best I can be. I took everything everything away from the picture, I took very seriously. I took my role. I took pride in my shirt.

Heather Fisher [00:32:31]:
That's that's the way I was as a player. I took pride every time I took the field. Only safe place I felt was on the pitch because I could just play with no judgment. I was a player of the game. I wasn't a he. I wasn't a her. It's not about the gender, but when you lose your hair and people always misgender you and they treat you, I can only think about it. I get treated like probably a trans person will get treated.

Heather Fisher [00:32:55]:
I'm always kicked out of places, kicked out of toilets, questioned. Always. Like, every day, every everywhere I go, always. And I get really embarrassed by it. And I get embarrassed when people think I'm on drugs because I've got muscles. I get embarrassed when people think I'm a boy all the time. So people don't fancy the same, therefore, your confidence goes down. And I went in myself.

Heather Fisher [00:33:18]:
So to be the rugged player that I was, which is very physical and very in your face, I had to go into almost, this is who I am on the pitch. But to be that big on the pitch, I had to relax off the pitch. But my way of relaxing became I got mixed in characters because I got I was strong, bold, quite big as a female, And that was my persona. People like that. But, actually, there's a person underneath it who's just lost their hair and I'm struggling with all the way a woman should look, be misgendered all the time. And I struggle with it. Does that make sense?

Simon Ursell [00:33:59]:
It really does.

Heather Fisher [00:34:00]:
And I was just I I fell into sports athletes are entertainment. Everyone we watch in Paris with entertainment, with beers in their hands, as a community, bringing people together. Because sport is amazing at bringing worlds together, communities together, and everyone together because it knows no gender, it knows no, you know, race. You can just be and you can play the sport. But for the athlete, it's their life. And they've worked years for 1 race, for 1 match, for a semifinal, for a for a 10th for 10 seconds, for 14 minutes. Like, they work their asses off for and they put everything into it. You don't just take your clothes off at night and put your PJs on and you're not an athlete.

Heather Fisher [00:34:42]:
You're an athlete through and through. You're a game changer through and through. You change your world through and through. You don't just, you know, just turn up and you take clothes off. You I'm that person through and through. And I I believe the best people in the world who've changed the world were that person through and through.

Simon Ursell [00:34:59]:
That's so cool. And and do you feel now, it sounds like you feel now you're more authentic, you're more who you really are, you're fish now.

Heather Fisher [00:35:07]:
I can just be myself. There's no I I don't try and be anything. I get frustrated when people are thinking rugby, like, fish is like trying to fish is trying I think they I always got misunderstood because I didn't care enough that I was misunderstood because why should it matter?

Simon Ursell [00:35:21]:
Mhmm.

Heather Fisher [00:35:21]:
It shouldn't matter.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:23]:
Right.

Heather Fisher [00:35:23]:
If I'm empowering you and making your team better and I'm adhering to your values of your team and our team and the England way, and I'm respecting it, and I'm a good person, I I'm a good person. And I think when you're kind and you're a good person, you lead by good values. It it I don't feel the need to justify who I am.

Simon Ursell [00:35:46]:
No. No. Sure. And what advice would you give we have quite a lot of people who are actually running environments, coaches in sport, business leaders, all sorts of walks of life. What advice would you give to people to help people, just be who they who they are? What You

Heather Fisher [00:36:01]:
gotta get to know your people.

Simon Ursell [00:36:03]:
Yeah. Good questions.

Heather Fisher [00:36:03]:
And you've got to be able to if I filled an application form now for a job, I can't even get through the door because I I can't my my I'm at my best in person. Yeah. And if you ask me the right question, I can give you the answers that are real. And if you want real and you want raw and you want different, then change your interview process, change the way you lead people, change your environment, be open minded to doing things differently. If you're not going to do things differently, you're not going to attract people with creative minds. Like, yes, I have ADHD, and, yes, I probably have other other issues. It's not about what I do or don't have. It's the way that I want to fit in.

Heather Fisher [00:36:41]:
And, actually, I I'm understanding myself now that I once a door is opened, I then smash it open and I'm there for life. I'm trying to find long term relationships to build with brands, with companies, to make a difference long term. And the generation below us are more open minded than we are. And it's us who need to adapt and change and be more elastic in our thinking. If we can be elastic, how we can bounce? I believe that your framework and your vision is so much widened, and you've allowed for creativity to come into your workplace. If you have the same interview process and the same questions you're gonna ask, I wouldn't get it through the door. And I actually think I'm pretty shit hot at what I do. And I think I bring the best out of people.

Heather Fisher [00:37:27]:
And I'm, I think I'm good to work with. Yeah. I'm hard work to ask I'm hard work to work with, because I will ask the question, why, why, why, why? I always want to know why. Not because I'm trying to be a pain. Not because I don't trust the coach or trust the environment or trust the leader. It's because I want to know and I wanna I pitch myself against you. I pitch myself against the best. And if you're the best at what you're doing, I wanna I wanna know why you're doing it and how you're you're doing it.

Heather Fisher [00:37:52]:
And not to compete, to get above you, but to bring myself up. Does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. And so, when people are afraid or they questioned me, great, I love being challenged. Bring it on. You should love to be challenged. And if, as leaders, we can love being challenged and and see it as a positive that someone's taking that interest in in you and themselves to wanna be better. Don't you want better in your company? Do you want someone to just go, is that the right way of doing it? They're not questioning your ability.

Heather Fisher [00:38:24]:
They're questioning the way you're thinking, and we all have different minds and different perspectives.

Simon Ursell [00:38:28]:
And you're you're clearly really brilliant at asking those tough questions. And it must be amazing having you in an organization because of that. I mean, I'd certainly would want that. How would you how would you help a leader then trying to encourage that from people that don't necessarily, or or society has sort of pushed them into not speaking up because it's dangerous, isn't it? And you, you know, you might get fired or

Heather Fisher [00:38:54]:
That's your you got That's your culture. You can't give culture.

Simon Ursell [00:38:57]:
Yep. So you can't create that.

Heather Fisher [00:38:58]:
Create the culture, and that is by your people. And if you've got a person if I'm in a relationship with someone and my girlfriend or whoever it was didn't feel they could speak to me, that's not on them. That's on me. I'm not allowing the environment to be safe. Yep. And

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:14]:
That's rugby by the way. Yeah. In most places. It's interesting. I was just reading, Dodsey, Mike Dodds was Jude Bellingham's coach at Birmingham. And, you just said, Jude was the best coach developer I ever had. It was just if things weren't good enough or standards weren't high enough or he didn't understand why we were doing the practice, he just quizzed me on it and it would make me better. I don't think many rugby coaches are thinking like that.

Heather Fisher [00:39:39]:
No. And that's probably if I'm thinking that now, I've always thought this is nothing different. It's always been inside me. I can just speak about it and articulate it probably better. But I was like that as a player.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:48]:
Were you frustrated as a player because you couldn't do that? Yeah. Yeah. Be because you didn't have the scale. You because you didn't feel able to do it, you didn't wanna put your head above the parapet, contracts were on the line, some of that stuff.

Heather Fisher [00:39:59]:
Well, I

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:59]:
got I got I

Heather Fisher [00:40:00]:
got I got dropped, like, how many times? I got my letter from the RFP saying thanks for working with us. Bye bye. Twice. No 1 knows that. So, yeah. I somehow got back in. I somehow got life after life after life like like a cat. I I think I had 9 lives.

Heather Fisher [00:40:21]:
And I used them all up. And then if I look at that and go, I did speak out and I spoke for other players as well. I'd be like, that's not okay.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:30]:
Yeah. No. I did that as well and, that's not okay.

Heather Fisher [00:40:34]:
No. And you're shot down. If you wanna shoot me down, if I'm making it better for someone else, if I'm having to lead the way, I'll lead the way. But it's not okay. And I got back in and I think, why did I get back in? Why did people like Bales, you know, Simon Amor, why do people like why did they back me? You know, and they back me because I'm a good person. I've got good values and I work hard. My ethics, my I come from a good place. And I think Yeah.

Heather Fisher [00:41:01]:
If that answers your question, I think I was good at what I did, and then no 1 good at what I did, but I was hell I was very frustrated. Very frustrated because I had so much more to give. If a coach could just allow me allow me the time to be myself, not question who I was.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:20]:
Yeah. My sense is that we probably and be similar, you know, again, the best businesses and the best team have outliers in them, don't they? They have the person, you know, whether it's Saracens with Farrell where people can't quite work out whether they'd wanna play with him, but he does have high standards and he's helping people get better or whether it's businesses hiring for, you know, diversity of thoughts.

Heather Fisher [00:41:41]:
But it happens in relations, isn't it? Like, personal relationships, like, you don't have a partner who who thinks you're too ambitious, you're too this, you're too that. And, actually, if you don't wanna bring yourself up, you don't have to. So in a company, I think you've got to be able to understand you're gonna have players who wanna push themselves to do better, who wanna come for your role. That's okay. Because I didn't care if a player came for my shirt. That's okay. Come on then. On board.

Heather Fisher [00:42:05]:
Let's go. Because you make it cheaper better. So you can't be afraid of everything's on loan to us. Think about it. Everything's on loan. We don't earn anything, and then we all go anyway. So it's just left, and the world evolves. So everyone's you can have those people in your workplace who are growing to aspire, and you look after those.

Heather Fisher [00:42:23]:
But you don't treat them in the play same you don't treat them the same as someone who comes in your company who maybe struggles with neurodiversity. You won't treat them the same. You just allow them to flourish in it might be just doing the admin. I say, Jess, I don't mean that. But it might be doing the admin. It might be doing social media. It might be washing up. It might be being the best cleaner they can be.

Heather Fisher [00:42:47]:
It doesn't have to be all excellent, but you can still have your values. Your values are throughout. Your values, whether you're here or you're here, are all the same.

Simon Ursell [00:43:01]:
Yes. I mean, it's it's making me feel slightly uncomfortable in, thinking now about how many people are speaking the truth, how well are we doing that. I mean, we've got neurodiver we've got neurodiverse people running our business, running teams, and

Heather Fisher [00:43:14]:
Have you?

Simon Ursell [00:43:15]:
Yeah. Autism, autistic, and

Heather Fisher [00:43:17]:
So I've just set I'm setting up my charity at the moment for autism and ADHD, or neurodiversity. Mhmm. It's gonna be called Fishbowl. A cool fishbowl. Fish

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:25]:
and chips?

Heather Fisher [00:43:25]:
Yeah. Fish fishbowl. It's called Fishbowl.

Simon Ursell [00:43:27]:
Good name. Yeah.

Heather Fisher [00:43:29]:
And it's it's it's I'm partnering with, you know, partnering with someone and that we're in the making at the moment. And the aim is to give young people apprenticeships, to put them into work, and then mentor them through the system.

Simon Ursell [00:43:44]:
But they do I mean, I think we found that they that neurodiverse, whatever you wanna call it, I'm I'm not a big fan of labels myself, but, it's individual, isn't it? Everybody's different.

Heather Fisher [00:43:55]:
It's individual, but we seem to I don't care about labels. But people will go back to my agent. I'll go back to Katie and go, oh my gosh. How'd you cope with Heather's autism? How'd you cope with ADHD? So people feel the need to label. People want the answers and we all do it. It's like, why has that happened to us? Oh, yeah. That's the reason why. Well, there's a reason for everything and we all we all get hung up on we do get hung up on the reasons why, what it means, and where it's going.

Simon Ursell [00:44:18]:
Well, labels are helpful.

Heather Fisher [00:44:20]:
Some parties dictate something.

Simon Ursell [00:44:22]:
No. Exactly. And I think and I think, you know, well, I think we found, different types of people in a in an organization doing different things in different ways tends to lead to better outcomes for everybody. But it is

Heather Fisher [00:44:39]:
individual. Individual.

Simon Ursell [00:44:40]:
You can't you can't say, oh, we'll have an autistic job, or we'll have a we'll have a role.

Heather Fisher [00:44:46]:
And, also, you don't want that. You don't want someone

Simon Ursell [00:44:48]:
to Weird.

Heather Fisher [00:44:48]:
Like, for for from someone who feels different with I feel different all the time. Yeah. And and different is now starting to be accepted, and that's like a breath of fresh air. Right? Because I'm not trying to be different. I just feel different. But you don't wanna you don't wanna point out that you're different. You just wanna be able to fit in. Yeah.

Heather Fisher [00:45:07]:
It's like when people say, oh, it's women's rugby or men's rugby. It's just rugby. Like, it's just for the game.

Simon Ursell [00:45:12]:
Yeah.

Heather Fisher [00:45:14]:
And I think things should be built on the purpose and what you need things for, not gender, not race, not color, just just for the purpose.

Simon Ursell [00:45:21]:
Yeah. And and I think you've touched on that quite a bit as well, which is, you know, that culture is incredibly important. But, also, I think you said purpose is everything. I thought of purpose.

Heather Fisher [00:45:30]:
Purpose is so yes. Purpose is so important.

Simon Ursell [00:45:32]:
Yeah. So having a really clear purpose for an organization is really important. Having a clear purpose for an individual is really important. Is there anything you would, give advice or any comments or any anything you gotta say around how to help people? Because so many people don't have a purpose. I mean, they've they're just bumbling along through life, I think.

Heather Fisher [00:45:51]:
So III I'm I'm Slightly. Yeah. I've been bamboozled by so many people how they don't have they don't care enough. People don't care. They live the weekend still.

Simon Ursell [00:46:01]:
Do you think they don't care, or they just don't realize the power of it?

Heather Fisher [00:46:04]:
Some people just don't care.

Simon Ursell [00:46:05]:
They just don't care. Yeah.

Heather Fisher [00:46:06]:
Not care enough. Yeah. Don't care enough. Like, they they see work as means to an end.

Simon Ursell [00:46:11]:
Yeah. Earn some cash.

Heather Fisher [00:46:13]:
Go ahead. Money. Yeah. And then it allows them to do more.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:16]:
Yeah. And I guess that might be their purpose. There's a James Clear quote, which is don't, mistake a a lack of motivation for lack of clarity. I think people sometimes don't have any yet clarity. I think it's quite a

Simon Ursell [00:46:29]:
Yeah. But some people just wanna chill, don't they? I mean, they're

Heather Fisher [00:46:32]:
That's okay.

Simon Ursell [00:46:32]:
Yeah. Which is fine.

Heather Fisher [00:46:33]:
But the expectation, aligning expectation is really important. So if I had someone in my who's working with me and and their expectation was aligned and they said to me, fish. And how do you align expectation? By communication. Right? By saying, this is what I want, and this is what drives me. I I live for the weekends. I live for my family. Culture to allow me to have time and balance at home is really important to me, and that's what it is. Brilliant.

Heather Fisher [00:46:56]:
Now we know. It's when you're not aligned in expectation that you get this miss what people want and should be there's no should on what people should be. I think should is a real naughty word. Like, we don't have to be a certain way. It's what drives you. But if you don't know if if you don't know what's driving you, I think that's the issue. If you don't know what I

Simon Ursell [00:47:14]:
completely agree. Yeah. I I that is so important. I I mean, I've heard that loud in care that it it is massive. I I think when you

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:22]:
Why do you think so many people don't know what's driving them?

Simon Ursell [00:47:25]:
I don't think anybody's really asked. And I think society drives a lot of behavior and the need to fit in and the need to do things a certain way.

Heather Fisher [00:47:34]:
But that's because of brands, though. Brands have a massive brands have a massive responsibility.

Simon Ursell [00:47:39]:
Well, social media is pretty Right.

Heather Fisher [00:47:40]:
Social media and brands, all that stuff, have massive responsibility on driving all this. Yep. And that's what, for me, that's what needs to change. And that's changing.

Simon Ursell [00:47:47]:
Yeah. And that's and and helping people discover who they really are and what they really want. And I think I mean, you know, Mustafa Saka, you you know, I'm a big fan. It Oh, you know that? I can't have had him too much. But that that, balance of expectation and support is so is so huge. You you do need to make it really clear what you expect. So at

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:08]:
Top and

Simon Ursell [00:48:09]:
Grange, we're a 4 day week company, but in those 4 days, you're working really hard. So if you're in Target Grange, you've gotta wanna you've gotta wanna work in a really intense way for 4 days. If that's not for you, that's cool. We'll help you find something that is for you, but we're we're not there's no judgment there, but we have a really clear idea about what we expect while you're here. I think that leads to honest conversations, which means high performance.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:33]:
Mhmm.

Simon Ursell [00:48:33]:
Because people know what they've gotta do, and they know what the consequence will be if they don't. And they know they're gonna get tons of support and help from us and kindness around helping them do that. But if they don't want to do that, we will help them find something else that they do wanna do. And some people just wanna cruise. Some people don't wanna do an intense 4 days. They wanna do a very chill 7 days. That's not Tyler Grant. So, you know, there's lots of other options, aren't there? So I I think that clarity

Heather Fisher [00:49:03]:
Why why couldn't why couldn't you why couldn't you adapt?

Simon Ursell [00:49:06]:
What, to a 7 days?

Heather Fisher [00:49:07]:
Yeah. Why couldn't you do a 4 and a 7? Why couldn't you do both? Why is it only there?

Simon Ursell [00:49:10]:
Well, we could. I mean, that's a great question, because I certainly wouldn't say we couldn't. We But

Heather Fisher [00:49:17]:
then minutes ago, you just said

Simon Ursell [00:49:18]:
something for you. Well, at the moment, it's not. So right now, we've got a real clarity around our 4 day week and how we're working because it's really hard. And it's it's quite difficult to fit in lots of other types of working within that. And there are plenty of places to work in a different way. I think the key is to help support people to find something that does work for them, not and it's and it doesn't have you don't have to be all things to everybody. Mhmm. And especially in a in a small business, I I think it's actually quite damaging.

Simon Ursell [00:49:44]:
We we used to try and be all things to everybody, and I think it hurt because we can't be, and it got really difficult for us to constantly try and please everybody. So now we have a bit more clarity around what we expect people to do and and loss of support around that. I think that's the key, but it's not, you know, a relentless environment where you're just saying, you must do this, you must do this, you must do this, without any real support around that is pretty awful. So you you do need to make sure you're you're giving people options and individualized, support as well rather than a you know, it's not a 1 size fit all. So we try and give people lots of different options, and we don't get it right. We're a long way from perfect. But I do think it's important to be really clear about what you expect people to do. I think if you don't do that, you're gonna really struggle.

Simon Ursell [00:50:34]:
I I guess, like you're finding with, you know, give me an opportunity. You know, I think if you're really clear about what that opportunity is, that would allow you to choose whether or not that was something you wanted to actually have a crack at.

Heather Fisher [00:50:46]:
Yeah. Some of the people I'm working with at the moment are it's very much 2 way. Like, fish, what do you want out of it? And this is what we're we feel this is what we want, but what we're open to what you want as well. Yeah. So it's both sides are open. Yeah. There are some brands that it's very much like this, and then I I choose if I fit into that.

Simon Ursell [00:51:06]:
Yeah. There

Heather Fisher [00:51:07]:
are other brands that it's like, well, we can look however you want. This is what we're thinking. This is what you're thinking. And we put that together to create something different. Yeah. So every sometimes we'll have projects running with brands that are so authentic just for me. Just just to just to show a different shed a different light on it.

Simon Ursell [00:51:25]:
Yeah. Yeah. And there's you know, you do I guess, we do need to find that's nice and challenging because we do need to find ways of helping people work with us that don't fit into that 4 day week and

Heather Fisher [00:51:36]:
10 days. Back to what we said. I think sometimes you can have the best person for the role, but it might just need tweaking.

Simon Ursell [00:51:41]:
Yeah. Sure. I hear that.

Heather Fisher [00:51:43]:
Yeah. It's only food for thought.

Simon Ursell [00:51:45]:
That's good it's good food for thought.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:47]:
What's the, what's the obviously, you've obviously you upskilled yourself on your Instagram reels. You're as good as anyone I've ever seen. What's the skill you need to add next?

Heather Fisher [00:52:00]:
What's the skill I need to add next? Because it feels

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:02]:
like you're always kind of every time you have a a little, a little dip, you end up growing a little bit. Like, it sounds like this is quite you know, you're going through not a dip, but you're going through quite some stressful stuff, and it's challenging you. And what do you have finding out is the skill you need to be better at?

Heather Fisher [00:52:19]:
I need to be better at, there's quite so much script read. I need to learn to read scripts better. I don't anything that I do speaking wise, a lot of it is off the cuff.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:31]:
I can imagine you're pretty good off the cuff. Cuff.

Heather Fisher [00:52:33]:
Yeah. I'm really great off the cuff. The best is when someone says to turn up and we'll choose we'll choose the conversation as you go. I'm, like, wicked. I don't like being set questions because I don't have a set answer. That's why I said earlier press record because if you ask the same question, it might become completely different because how I feel. I act on how I feel. So script reading, I haven't I haven't I can't read very well.

Heather Fisher [00:52:54]:
I'm not very good at reading. So script reading, and I think rugby's helped me in terms of, you know, being in the center of the field and hearing comms coming in and having comms out and then listen to opposition and hearing the sidelines. Like, you learn to just, I suppose, listen but be open so you can hear more. I'm having to if I could add that skill with script reading, that will help me presenting stuff. And I think I'm continuing to I'm continuing to grow personally. Like, I'm now starting to understand who I am. I don't I don't need to set bricks and mortar around me to now feel stable. Whereas a year ago, I would've gone, my house is my sanctuary.

Heather Fisher [00:53:35]:
Like, oh, god. This is my safe place. My safe this is my safe place. I'm okay. You see, I'm okay. I'm always gonna be okay. So understanding myself and, I've been with Katie from Good Vibes Only now for about a year, and things are now starting to come to fruition. So I think the next year I think the next year is next 2 year is gonna be pretty exciting.

Heather Fisher [00:53:58]:
I wanna put more women on the map. I wanna create more environments for people to feel good. And I wanna work with the brands and people who are open minded and elastic in changing the world to make it a better place.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:13]:
Strong. The bit you just said there was probably the bit that's, like, resonated the most with me. And I know we were chatting about, like, how we help people. But once you know who you wanna be, it's pretty easy, isn't it?

Heather Fisher [00:54:24]:
Once you know who you are, you gotta know who you are. And I think that's so powerful in sport, actually. You gotta know who you are. 1 of the strengths, I think, to being successful in performance in knowing who you are. Because once you know who you are, you're not really afraid of you're not afraid, like, that you you can handle the nose when you know who you are. When you've got clarity. And clarity comes from knowing who you are. And once you know who you are, you don't have to worry about how you're going to deliver or how you hold yourself because it's in it it's innate.

Heather Fisher [00:54:49]:
It's within you. So you don't have to worry about any of that stuff. All you have to worry about is doing a great job when you're there. So I think knowing yourself is the best thing you can bring to any team, any environment. And as a leader, knowing yourself when you know yourself, you're not scared to be challenged because you know what you stand for and you're and you're comfortable in your own skin. If if I get challenged in any walk of life, and I'm very much like every every room I go into. I was at NatWest last week, and I was like, you know, any feedback you've got, good or bad, just throw it my way. If you want to slow down or say it differently or you want this, just just say it.

Heather Fisher [00:55:23]:
It's okay. I I can take it. It's all good. I'd rather know.

Simon Ursell [00:55:32]:
Yeah. I'm rarely speechless.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:34]:
But I'm pretty speechless. This is the least I haven't spoken, by the way, on all the participants. Yeah.

Heather Fisher [00:55:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking you were quite quiet. Really? You look quite startled.

Simon Ursell [00:55:42]:
Am I startled? Yeah. Yeah. Maybe. Maybe I have.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:45]:
This is

Simon Ursell [00:55:45]:
a good podcast. I mean, genuinely blowing my mind.

Heather Fisher [00:55:49]:
I told you.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:49]:
I remember what I said. Said that. It's a You're very good. I think we're just not helping people with, like, helping them understand who they are.

Simon Ursell [00:55:55]:
Yeah. I mean, I think I think It's

Heather Fisher [00:55:56]:
a gap in the market.

Simon Ursell [00:55:57]:
Well, we yeah. We I mean, we I think we've tried. We've got all sorts of initiatives to try and help people find their purpose, and, you know, Rusty's helped us with a thing called dream catching, and we do we load the stuff, but I think I

Heather Fisher [00:56:09]:
think I think we're I think

Simon Ursell [00:56:09]:
we're miles off.

Heather Fisher [00:56:11]:
Because I think you've gotta collaborate. I can't do it on my own. I've got people working in different areas helping me to do it. It can't all come from me.

Simon Ursell [00:56:19]:
Sure.

Heather Fisher [00:56:20]:
So I think and as brands, we can't be afraid to collaborate. Who was I with the other day? And I said, we can't we don't need to reinvent the wheel. People are doing it really well.

Simon Ursell [00:56:30]:
Yeah. Looking over the fence. Yeah. Was was someone else doing this?

Heather Fisher [00:56:32]:
I said I was with the RFP the other day and they had a training day. And, it's about women's sport. It shouldn't be about women's sport. It's just about sport and rising. Women don't need to bring women up. Women just need to bring men and women up, and men need to bring men and women up as well. We can all bring each other up. Don't put labels on it.

Heather Fisher [00:56:47]:
But the question was, in the room, how do how do the brands of the RFU who work in the RFU work towards putting 2025 World Cup Women's World Cup on the map and being the best and delivering and adding value, helping the players, and being more. I was like, this isn't hard. Like, cricket, you know, the cricket are doing it really well. The FA are doing it really well. Like, it's not about women's rugby. It's just about sport and bringing people together. But if brands are doing it really well, if cricket are doing really well, and the FA have done it very well, and they're doing it really well, go and go and collaborate and find out what they're doing and do it do it with them. But people have to be open minded to go, oh, people like a new idea.

Heather Fisher [00:57:32]:
Oh, it's my idea. But, actually, we don't need to reinvent. We just need to get the right people in the right places to do it. If that means it's not me, I went, about 6 months ago. I put someone who's now retired just forward for something. And my agent said to me, Katie said to me, Fish, this name on here, she went, that might put you out of a job. And I went, that's alright. They will choose the best person for the role.

Heather Fisher [00:57:59]:
If that's not me and she's more suited, that's okay. It's alright. We're different. And I can't I don't think we can be afraid to do that. And I was like that as a player. I pulled out of Tokyo. I went up to Scott and I said, when you select the squad tomorrow, don't select me. And that was really tough.

Simon Ursell [00:58:18]:
Mhmm.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:58:18]:
1 of

Heather Fisher [00:58:19]:
the hardest conversations I've had. So I get frustrated when people think I'm on a pedestal. I'm not. I just I'm quite humble. And actually, I'm quite I'm quite a realist. I want to do a great job. And if I can't do a great job, then someone else can do a better job than me at the moment. That's okay.

Heather Fisher [00:58:34]:
I I need to find my people who I can do a great job with. If they're better at that, that is okay. We don't have to reinvent the wheel. We just collaborate.

Simon Ursell [00:58:42]:
Yeah. So true. It's so true. It's it's fascinating stuff. I mean I

Heather Fisher [00:58:47]:
don't think many people think I don't think many people think like this. I'm I'm finding out.

Simon Ursell [00:58:53]:
No. They no. No. I I think the vanishingly small number of people think like that actually.

Heather Fisher [00:58:57]:
And that can be quite lonely. That makes you feel different in yourself because I I think I've I think I think differently.

Simon Ursell [00:59:03]:
I think people have that within them. I I think they these sorts of this sort of these sorts of conversations are I mean, the real 1 of the reasons I'm quiet is because I'm just it's slightly blowing my mind because I'm being really challenged, thinking about all the stuff I now wanna do with Tyler Grange and outside of it. But I think people have it within them, don't they? I mean, they those sorts of thoughts are there. I mean, do you I mean, I'm assuming you have quite a few conversations like this or not really?

Heather Fisher [00:59:33]:
Yeah. I I this is me.

Simon Ursell [00:59:35]:
Yeah. Sure. So I wonder how many people actually start you know, you start the cogs turning, and they start Yeah. I think actually, actually, yeah. I do I do get it. Because I think it's within everybody.

Heather Fisher [00:59:46]:
Yeah. I think that's what I do well at my talks in businesses. Yeah. Because I challenge people's thoughts. I'm not afraid to challenge. Yeah. I'll say, I'll find out a lot. Who's the CEO? Right.

Heather Fisher [00:59:55]:
Let me ask you a question. Yeah. You know, I will I will challenge people. Not because I'm trying to be a douchebag. It's because I'm I'm genuinely interested. And I would like to think that I can become my own brand, and I I want to do I'm not afraid so I want to become. Even though you know how young people sit out and they go, I don't know what I wanna be, and we said it earlier, for people who don't have a purpose. You don't have to maybe know the final stretch.

Heather Fisher [01:00:20]:
But just by having direction, by aiming for something, you have direction. And that direction puts you with the right people in the right environment and aligns you to yourself and and makes you accountable. When you're when you're aiming for something, if something else comes up between now and the next 5 years and it fits in well with me, you can't be afraid to sail the ship somewhere

Simon Ursell [01:00:39]:
else. Mhmm.

Heather Fisher [01:00:41]:
And I think some people think, that's what I said I was going to do. I have to do it. But if the ship sails somewhere differently, because maybe it's too rough, those seas are too rough, and we have to be clever and divert and go around, then don't be afraid to go around. I think that can be challenged. I think that's the way nice work. I think, you know, for me, smooth seas don't make for skillful sailors.

Simon Ursell [01:01:02]:
No. Sure. I

Heather Fisher [01:01:03]:
have it written on my wall at home.

Simon Ursell [01:01:04]:
Do you? Nice nice, mate.

Heather Fisher [01:01:06]:
Big wall that I just write on. All my all my thoughts, I write all my thoughts on a big white wall.

Simon Ursell [01:01:12]:
Wow. Sounds like a cool wall. So in terms of where you're going now then, we kinda need I I mean, we've been chatting for a while. Where are we? Well well over an hour. Is that a new record?

Rusty Earnshaw [01:01:28]:
You've set 2 records already. 1 is you've made I'm Inquire. Yeah. And the second 1 is you're the first person to say douchebag on the, podcast, which feels very, 19 eighties American, ill intense.

Heather Fisher [01:01:40]:
Because I'm trying to swear these days.

Simon Ursell [01:01:42]:
Yeah. Well done. Oh, yeah. Strong work. Yeah. So in terms of where next then, and and your purpose, so you wanna be a presenter. Is that right? Am I trying to put words in your mouth here? Are you and where you're heading where you're heading next? Is it is it, is it a role? Is it how you feel? Is it is it what what what is it that you actually what what are you heading towards of appreciating that destinations aren't a thing?

Heather Fisher [01:02:07]:
Yeah. Direction is I don't think I've got the answer yet.

Simon Ursell [01:02:10]:
No. Sure. So it's about discovering that.

Heather Fisher [01:02:12]:
I'm discovering. I'm I get as soon as I walk in a room and I get excited by someone or something, I'm like, I'm in. Yeah. So this this is quite exciting. You appreciate this. I went to, the advertising, I think, advertising week, which is in London recently. It's, like, 2 days, alongside Soho House, and you get to meet loads of cool brands and there have different talks. And I was in a talk with the National Lottery, and I was I was in the audience.

Heather Fisher [01:02:40]:
They were talking on stage. So you just I went to view everything. I just went to see. I was having a really bad day, a really bad week. Right? I didn't wanna walk in. I was crying for a walk in. I was on the phone to my dad just trying to calm down, and I was like, I just feel a bit of a mess. So the first thing is is that thing about showing up, which you spoke about earlier.

Heather Fisher [01:02:57]:
Because I didn't if I didn't show up and I wasn't brave enough to put my hand up and ask a question in this room, this guy who was also in the room wouldn't have approached me afterwards. So I asked a random questions to the National Lottery about how they're looking to change it and what can we do as people to help spread their journey and spread their story about the National Lottery and all the good that they do because they're involved in so much. Anyway, this guy came up to me later on. It was that far his name is. I think we're going to do wicked things together. And in UN, like, he's basic calling for sure, he set up a electric scooters racing. It's all about electric scooters and racing electric scooters around the world in different circuits. And I'm looking to maybe compete in electric scooting in the world champs.

Heather Fisher [01:03:38]:
They go a 140 miles an hour. What?

Simon Ursell [01:03:40]:
What? What?

Heather Fisher [01:03:42]:
Sorry. I'm I've I've got it wrong. They go a 140 kilometers an hour.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:03:46]:
If I still pick a queen, that's too big for me.

Heather Fisher [01:03:47]:
You race you race around the world in different circuits, and he's gone fish. I just wanna put it takes change out the equation. Because even though men have the weight distribution, girls are better on the corners because it's slight it's it's more chilled. And his vision is aligned in mine. I sat in a room with him for half an hour, and I was like, I'm in. If we get everything right and aligned and, you know, looking to be an ambassador and compete around the world and and be an ambassador for Formula e and do what we're doing here with the scooters, I meant. And straight away, I just knew. And that, for me, is a real strong purpose.

Heather Fisher [01:04:22]:
Then we've got a partner for Fishbowl, a charity, and we're going to do something big there with this company. And they're a global company, which is really exciting. And it's like, I'm in. Met them. The guy flew flew from New York to meet me in London. And he was like, we're in. I was like, wicked. I'm in.

Heather Fisher [01:04:39]:
And so with my charity and with doing something active and that is actually a bit out there, I think I could find myself into a new world. I don't have to be ready yet. And you hear it all time, athletes. Until until it's ready to go, until the whistle goes, we've got time. I've got time. I think when you put your English shirt on and Rush will speak about this, you don't just put it on for yourself. I put it on for every coach, every person who believed in me, everyone who patched you back together, who operated on me, who helped me, everyone who has helped build me up. I just have the role of putting it on and lending it for that moment in time.

Heather Fisher [01:05:20]:
But, actually, the bigger picture is purpose and vision and, legacy. And so if we can build my charity to give more people young lives, I can go in and change, neurodiversity in businesses. I can go and race scooters around the world and get my adrenaline out my system and show that women can go crazy fast too as well as guys. Just those 2 things alone and then documentaries in other countries helping women women thrive in different cultures, that's pretty sick. That's not not that excites me.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:05:55]:
I can see from your face.

Simon Ursell [01:05:56]:
Yeah. Yeah. It's gonna say it's

Rusty Earnshaw [01:05:57]:
gonna say it's gonna end on.

Heather Fisher [01:05:58]:
And so yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:05:59]:
By the way, I'm all in on the scooter racing. I'm watching it.

Simon Ursell [01:06:02]:
Yeah. Me.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:06:03]:
I don't

Simon Ursell [01:06:03]:
wanna go on the scooter, but I definitely wanna watch it go around

Rusty Earnshaw [01:06:05]:
the line.

Simon Ursell [01:06:06]:
Yeah. Amazing.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:06:07]:
Yeah. Like

Heather Fisher [01:06:07]:
And that wouldn't have come. Like, very much, I had a really bad day and really bad week. Cried walking in. Still asked the question. And my Katie's very big on, if you want someone to notice who you are when you're in a room, ask the right question. Yeah. Because then people will have to look at you. When you ask when you ask a question, people get to know who you are.

Heather Fisher [01:06:25]:
It's it's an it's a really good way for business, I think, to introduce yourself to people and a wider network just by sitting in a room and asking a question. Because people then go, who's that? And that's what we're having to do. We're having to build the awareness. Wow. Tip number 1.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:06:40]:
My favorite book is the the otherwise more. I'll let people read it, but you are, epitomizing the otherwise more moments

Heather Fisher [01:06:47]:
Never read it.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:06:47]:
Moments, showing up. And then you are also there's a quote I've heard that probably summarizes you pretty well. It's like, kind of, go with your heart and your head will follow. I can sense you going, I'm all in. I'm all in. We'll think about the logistics later. Yeah. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:07:05]:
But I will be travelling around the world on scooters.

Heather Fisher [01:07:07]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah.

Simon Ursell [01:07:10]:
Thanks so much, fish. No worries. Brilliant.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:07:13]:
We appreciate you. Fish bowl, fish and chips. Legend.

Heather Fisher [01:07:16]:
Fish cake.

Simon Ursell [01:07:18]:
Awesome. Thanks.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:07:21]:
Okay. Simon, that is the quietest I've ever seen you.

Simon Ursell [01:07:25]:
I I, my, mind was blank.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:07:28]:
You're still stuttering and stroking the snake.

Simon Ursell [01:07:30]:
My mind was blank. I mean, III don't think I've been in a room with somebody, quite like Fish before. She's just brilliant.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:07:42]:
And She's the only person you've ever met who, traveled around with a bird on her shoulder for a couple of days.

Simon Ursell [01:07:49]:
Yeah. But, I mean I mean, frankly, she's just so impressive. And I love the way she thinks. I just Yeah. I was so blown. And and most of the time, my 1 of the things that tends to happen to me quite a bit, people will say stuff and I'll start thinking about all the ways I can apply that to other things. And she was saying so much, I can keep up.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:08:07]:
You're in the light of the circle of death. I could see it in your eyes. I see. Well Quite rare to reset. We had to reset you halfway through.

Simon Ursell [01:08:14]:
Yeah. Maybe a bit. But it wasn't a circle of death. I was, I was just trying yeah. I mean, it's just brilliant. I I mean, I love love, hanging out with Fish. And I love hanging out with people like Fish, although I think she's pretty unique. She's just brilliant, and she's given me so there's so many things now that I wanna go away and have a have a really good deep dive on and try and work out.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:08:37]:
Well, I'll start. I'll go with the first 1. Purpose, really important. People find their purpose. Who you are, who you wanna be, gives you that north star, probably makes those kind of bounce back ability moments, those nose with a double exclamation mark, a little bit easier to deal with.

Simon Ursell [01:08:54]:
Yeah. Because you just you you know where you're heading. So a nose just is a is a is helping you get there, isn't it? I mean, that links nicely onto onto mine, which is authenticity. You know, the authentic person, be yourself. Fish is fish. I love that. And I think the more we can help people to be authentic and know who they are, more resilient they're gonna be and the more capable they're gonna be of bouncing back.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:09:20]:
And mine's gonna tie into that. It's probably the the reference you made to those kind of challenging conversations upwards, which really don't exist that much in rugby, let's be honest. But the ability for someone to kind of go, I'm curious about this or how come we're doing this? And as I said, the the Dodsey and Jude, stuff I've been reading about recently really kinda resonated. I don't know. Gee Bellingham turned out alright. Anna Fisher turned out alright.

Simon Ursell [01:09:46]:
Yeah. I mean, absolutely. They really do. I mean, that and and that probably links on to my other 1. And we could go on for hours, couldn't we? But we don't wanna repeat the podcast. But We

Rusty Earnshaw [01:09:56]:
might have to reset you 1

Simon Ursell [01:09:58]:
more time. Yeah. Press re press Simon's reset button. He's he's glitching again. But it is time. I mean, she spoke about it. It I think it came across quite a bit. I mean, the and I think that's maybe 1 of the things that hasn't come across in the podcast that, thinking back to the other ones, I think it's so important, is allowing space, time, support is all about giving people time and space to be able to work this stuff out, work through things, not feel, to go at their own pace.

Simon Ursell [01:10:28]:
I mean, it can go fast. No problem. But they might wanna get a little longer, and it's individualization of that. But I think time is I think I think that's quite massive. And I think it's 1 of the really profound things, I think, of that I'm gonna take away from this and have a bit of a think about.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:10:44]:
Amazing. Well, thanks for joining us, everyone. I'm gonna press control alt delete on Simon now. Thank you. Get him going again. Over and out.

Simon Ursell [01:10:52]:
See you.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:10:54]:
Thanks so much for joining us on the Ban's Speculity podcast with Simon in Bristol. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can they reach you?

Simon Ursell [01:11:03]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursell, URS for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [01:11:10]:
TikTok? No. Not really. Linkedin, Russ Lansaw. And then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts

Simon Ursell [01:11:18]:
Yeah. Second that.

Rusty Earnshaw [01:11:19]:
Over and out.