Inside ESports: Enhancing Longevity and Life Beyond Professional Gaming with Caleb Cousens | Episode 19

In today's episode we talk in depth with ESports coach, Caleb Cousens. With 13 years of experience as an organisational leader, Caleb has built a team of world-class coaches dedicated to enhancing the skills of professional gamers and Esports athletes worldwide. 

Transforming team dynamics, fighting burnout and creating supportive, high-performance environments are just some of the innovations and techniques developed by Caleb and his team to address the unique challenges that come with professional gaming. Under his leadership, Caleb continues to make a significant impact in this dynamic and rapidly evolving industry, and today he shares how his pioneering efforts - rooted in adaptability, mental resilience, and community - are shaping the future of Esports. 

If you’re interested in learning more about the lives of professional gamers and the new coaching methods being born from the industry, this is a conversation you don’t want to miss. 

In this episode:

12:45 - Burnout and emotional Stress - Exploring the prevalence of burnout culture in Esports, particularly in China and South Korea and its emotional toll on players.

23:10 - Identity beyond gaming – With short career spans and success at a young age for most, how does Esports cater to the development of players' identities beyond gaming.

34:25 - Successful team dynamics - Examining the shift needed in Esports from individual competitiveness to fostering team dynamics, including Caleb's success with the New York Subliners.

48:15 - Coach development in Esports - Innovative approaches for coach development in Esports and how this contrasts with traditional coaching practice.

Connect with Caleb here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/calebcousens/

https://www.adamasesports.gg/

https://www.linkedin.com/company/adamasesports/?originalSubdomain=ca

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell [00:00:08]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on. Welcome to the pod, everybody. Who have we got on today, Rasti?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:17]:
Caleb Cousins, Adamas, working in esports, super intelligent guy, working in a really, like, fascinating space. So, I I think you're gonna get pretty excited by it.

Simon Ursell [00:00:29]:
Yeah. I reckon. I mean, esports is something I know absolutely nothing about. I mean, I know it exists, and I've seen some stuff. It looks really exciting, sort of. But I guess it's different generation to me.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:40]:
Yeah. Probably don't mention Daley Thompson's decathlon or anything like that.

Simon Ursell [00:00:44]:
Daley Thompson's decathlon's awesome. He will love it. It's retro. Kids love that stuff. I mean, that's gonna be the best part of his day.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:53]:
Yeah. Look. I've spent a day with esports, with a team competing. And, yeah, again, I was completely unaware of the context, really. What, what did I see, KFC for breakfast, People are

Simon Ursell [00:01:08]:
Don't tell them about KFC for breakfast, whatever you do,

Caleb Cousins [00:01:10]:
because it's not gonna

Simon Ursell [00:01:12]:
offend them.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:12]:
Yeah. Kids under high pressure, and I say kids because they're pretty young. Financial, high financial rewards, I guess, high judgment, this kind of really short career, probably not that used to be the way from home, not that used to communicating with one another. So, yeah, well, it felt like an environment where bounce back ability was vital, really.

Simon Ursell [00:01:39]:
Really? And and Caleb's sort of working on that, is he?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:42]:
Yeah. He's kind of in a space of I mean, I guess it's just starting out really, isn't it? It's this kind of new industry, where he's trying to help teams, really. I mean, be better as teams, better be bringing a bit of psychology stuff, helping coaches, create environments, which I know you're gonna love, and I'm sure Mustafa's gonna mention again. But

Simon Ursell [00:02:03]:
Definitely. Always.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:05]:
I guess experimenting with and trying to influence those types of, spaces.

Simon Ursell [00:02:10]:
Awesome. Well, let's get him on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:11]:
Over and out.

Simon Ursell [00:02:14]:
Kate?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:15]:
Are we recording?

Simon Ursell [00:02:16]:
We are recording, Rusty. Honestly, what did you think? I pointed at you. Well, I I mean, I know we're on Zoom and but I pointed at you. You're just looking down at the floor. I mean, come on. We're we're supposed to be professional podcasters now. Because I do

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:32]:
like I don't know

Simon Ursell [00:02:33]:
what episode we're on, but we've done quite a few. I mean, we shouldn't be this rubbish at it, this many episodes. Wait.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:41]:
Do you like No.

Simon Ursell [00:02:41]:
I wasn't I wasn't doing a dab. I was pointing at you because you said I said we're ready to go, and I pointed at you. I wasn't doing a dab. And in fact

Caleb Cousins [00:02:50]:
In honor of the opening ceremonies for the summer Olympics Yeah. The USA ball.

Simon Ursell [00:02:54]:
Yeah. We're doing a USA fire.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:00]:
Hey, I appreciate you coming. This is, we got Caleb on this week who

Simon Ursell [00:03:04]:
Thank you, Caleb.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:04]:
I was to to via Aaron Walsh, who was obviously doing a bit of stuff for you guys, you know, trying to change the world of esports and probably how coaches and players are supported. I would I was wondering when we chatted earlier as to whether you're on the Bandwidths Back Willie podcast because you got 3 kids who don't sleep. And so

Simon Ursell [00:03:24]:
You might you're up anyway, so you might as well talk to us, is that?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:27]:
Yeah. Exactly. And you've had, broken sleep for the last 5 years of your life, and you're still showing up every day, which is as bounce backable as it comes.

Simon Ursell [00:03:37]:
Well, this is a very bounce bouncy podcast, isn't it? Because what I mean, you're in Spain, and you've had, like, 1 hour sleep, and you slept between 2 people on Ryanair. So you kinda slept all that well for 2 hours.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:49]:
Yeah. I've had about 4 hours sleep. So

Simon Ursell [00:03:51]:
Oh, I'm pretty I'm pretty well rested, but you guys must be yeah. I am Should we

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:56]:
do we actually, like, do this properly? Are we gonna No.

Simon Ursell [00:03:59]:
We're not gonna do it. We never do it properly. We're all in about

Rusty Earnshaw [00:04:04]:
Caleb, great to have you on. We appreciate you coming on.

Caleb Cousins [00:04:07]:
Appreciate you having me. Showing up, as as you said, is half the battle, and, excited to have this conversation.

Simon Ursell [00:04:14]:
Amazing.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:04:15]:
Do you wanna do you wanna give people a bit of a explanation of, like, where you've come from and where you're up to?

Caleb Cousins [00:04:22]:
Sounds good. So, yeah, my name's Caleb Cousins. I am, the cofounder and CEO of Adamas Esports. My career has been in esport or not in esports, since start ups my entire my entire life. And so I was a founding employee of a number of start ups in various industries from agriculture tech to athleisure fashion to traditional sport performance, and and then 7 years ago decided I would start my own business for the first time, in the performance space for gaming and esports since we've been working with some of the best professional gamers and and esports athletes over the last 7 years all over the world. And, I've really built out a team of of world class coaches who I've really enjoyed, helping them develop, helping support them and create a supportive environment so that we can have an impact on this new and exciting industry. And like you said, along the way, over those 7 years, had 3 kids. Life is full.

Caleb Cousins [00:05:24]:
Life is fulfilling, but life is also, busy and stressful. So it's it's all good.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:30]:
Nice. And and I've actually spent a day with an esports team, when competing. And, I wonder if you could kind of maybe, like, just open up that little door and just tell people what it looks like because, I mean, it's, like, quite ginormous now, isn't it, esports? And then, obviously, we got the Olympics on. They're not quite in the Olympics yet, but there is chat, You know? That that's where it's going.

Caleb Cousins [00:05:54]:
So, there was an an announcement this week actually that the Esports Olympic Games are going to be happening, I think as starting next year. And so the IOC have announced that, and there will now be an Esports Olympics, every year Wow. As well. And so,

Simon Ursell [00:06:12]:
That's cool.

Caleb Cousins [00:06:13]:
Yeah. Yeah. Very cool. Just to speak a little bit to, I guess, the life of a of a professional gamer, It's quite it's quite stressful, I would say. So, the the workday of a professional gamer usually starts around 10 AM. They have their first, so they'll usually have breakfast together, do some sort of, warm up, kind of physical action. Usually, that's a 10, 15 minute thing led by a performance coach, and then they go into their 1st block of of scrims. And so that will be usually 3 hours of of scrimming against other teams because there is there's not really a way to practice in esports without just playing the game against other high quality competitors.

Simon Ursell [00:06:59]:
Is that what I mean, forgive my ignorance. Is that what screaming means?

Caleb Cousins [00:07:03]:
Yeah. Screaming is like scrimmaging against another opponent.

Simon Ursell [00:07:06]:
Sure. Sure. Okay.

Caleb Cousins [00:07:07]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No. Please don't don't, don't use the word for verification.

Simon Ursell [00:07:13]:
I I'm definitely gonna have to ask you some questions about this as well. As as much as I'm excited about it, I I probably don't know as much as I should.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:21]:
Simon's, Simon's technological, experience, revolves around Commodore 60 fours and ZX Spectrums.

Simon Ursell [00:07:29]:
Hey. I was I was I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. In fact, they had, Daley Thompson's Olympics. Did you see that on the telly the other day? Yep. Do you remember that? Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:07:38]:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was with you had to absolutely batter the keys. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:07:43]:
I was good at that. I was pretty, pretty caught at that. Yeah. And I've got 2 boys. So, yeah, they they get me playing the odd game. So, Call of Duty, done that. Hope for Saturday. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:07:55]:
Yep. Yep. Wouldn't be on an esports team. Blow myself up too many times.

Caleb Cousins [00:08:01]:
I used to be good at Call of Duty. I'm no longer good at Call of Duty. I've I've crossed the threshold where I'm no longer fast enough to keep up with the kids nowadays.

Simon Ursell [00:08:10]:
I'm sure. But I bet your level of not very good is massively better than my not very good.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:08:16]:
There's levels. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:08:17]:
Yeah. Yeah. I'm definitely at a different level to you. Yeah. Yeah. It does sound stressful there. I mean, it does feel like it's an that's I mean, it does feel like that's gonna be super intense, very fast paced. It is a young man's game then.

Simon Ursell [00:08:29]:
Young sorry. Young person's game.

Caleb Cousins [00:08:31]:
It's a young man's game. It's a it's a environment right now that doesn't, that burns people out very, very quickly. And so the turnover at every level, whether it's coaches or players or just staff members of the team, it's very high stress, very long days, usually 6 days a week, if not 7 days a week. And and so at the player level, they usually have 2 to 3 3 hour scrim blocks a day. So that's 6 to 9 hours practicing, then there'll be another 1 to 2 hours of of VOD review, to review some of their some of their games from the day. And then usually what happens is they'll they'll end their day and all the players go home and they continue to practice their game in solo queue. So they'll just jump on and practice basically the the individual technique of their play for another 2 or 3 hours. And so so these guys and and gals are are looking at 15, 16 hour days pretty much nonstop when the season's running.

Caleb Cousins [00:09:38]:
And then with usually 2 or 3 days of, like, competition a week on top of that. And so it's I stress, we're trying to bring in some more kind of best practices around how to shape environments so that they're conducive to more more longevity within within the sport. But there's there's work to be done because the culture of gaming and and, I mean, the games themselves are made to be addictive. And so there's there's there's a lot working against us, but we're we're having an impact wherever we can.

Simon Ursell [00:10:09]:
So talk me through why you're having an impact.

Caleb Cousins [00:10:13]:
Well, the place that we're having the biggest impact is on the coaching side, I would say. So working with leaders as part of these teams, most most coaches and and leaders in esports, they are experts at their game. They're technical tactical experts, but they're not true coaches or true leaders in, let's say, the traditional sports sense of the word. They don't know necessarily they don't necessarily have the strongest communication skills. They don't really know how to communicate their thoughts in a, coherent way and teach other people that they're not, they don't have typically a lot more experience than the coaches that they're coaching. They're usually retired players who are 1 or 2 years out of their sport. And so working alongside them on a daily basis, mentoring them, giving them tools and helping them build confidence as a coach has been a way and give them the understanding of, okay, if you can start training smarter and not harder, that's going to create a differentiator and a competitive advantage for your team versus the other teams that come to the end of the season and are literally burnt out by having to play the world championships and stuff. And some of them, again, because they all do it, a team always has to win, but there's a better way to do it.

Caleb Cousins [00:11:32]:
So it's a it's a lot of education. It's a lot of help helping and bringing the the person in the space along and giving them more education as well. And, just kind of daily mentorship of these people to help them be better and and lead their people better.

Simon Ursell [00:11:51]:
Wow. I mean, so you how how how do you achieve that then? Because I I mean, it sounds like I don't know. I'm getting this impression of a very noisy environment where there's a lot of a lot of encouragement, a lot of shouting, a lot of to and fro ing, really busy, buzzy kind of thing. That fit that's already making me feel quite stressed if I'm completely honest with you. So how are you helping people with that? Or am I right, or is it really calm and quiet?

Caleb Cousins [00:12:19]:
So it's it's not calm. No. And, again, every every spare second, when these guys aren't on their, PC screens, they're on their their phone screens on social media, looking at the chatter about them, and and and and there's that dynamic as well. I mean, at the end of the day, these are teenagers or or very young adults who have been gamers all their life. They don't have a lot of experience or skills outside of that, and so they're they do what they've always done. And that's where, again, working with the organizations, working with the coaches to help them understand that there are better ways to do things. I mean, I don't do that. I'm running the business side of things.

Caleb Cousins [00:13:01]:
I've brought on some brilliant coaches that have experience from the Olympics and professional sport, and they have come into esports. And and, typically, they come into esports, and they're excited to do so because it's such a new and dynamic industry compared to traditional sports. There's there's so much low hanging fruit and so much potential to have impact, not only on every individual you're working with, but on the industry as a whole and how the industry is going to evolve and develop over time and mature. And so we've been able to attract some really, really world class and fantastic coaches to come in and and work with the teams and the clients that we have to to give them the the best practices from traditional sport or business or wherever it might be, but also, like, start to innovate new ways of working because esports is a very new environment that really hasn't existed before in any other working kind of industry.

Simon Ursell [00:14:01]:
Which is so exciting. Right? I mean, I can I completely understand how you're attracting people in? I mean, I I mean, I'd love to be in. I mean, I put words in Rusty's mouth, but I know he would love to be involved in stuff like that. Anybody anybody who's got an interest in people is gonna wanna get into something that like that because it's so new, so different, so out of my experience. You're just curious, aren't you? So must be kind of exciting. But then I guess that excitement and that newness and that difference creates stress and challenge. Hopefully, good stress. Good challenge.

Simon Ursell [00:14:34]:
But

Caleb Cousins [00:14:35]:
Yeah. Good good stress, bad stress, lots of stress. Just stress.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:40]:
I would

Caleb Cousins [00:14:41]:
yeah. I would say, again, the environment creates stress there. The the the business reality of these teams in the in in the industry right now is is one that is, we've just gone through a market correction, a bit of a bubble burst over the last 2 years. So Sure. There's a lot less investment in the space. But therefore, teams are having to, manage budgets a lot more responsibly, which leads to even more stress in these environments, but also in in what we're trying to do and and trying to bring new ideas to them because they're not they're not in a very innovative mindset all the time because it's very much a survival mode in in some way. And so, yeah, lots of lots of stress, but lots of, fulfilling work on the back end, which makes it worth it. There's stress in any job.

Simon Ursell [00:15:33]:
Yeah. Sure.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:15:33]:
Asking you, Caleb, I'm I'm curious as to why you think you've had the most impact. I'm I'm kinda guess what's some of the low hanging fruit that you picked off before that, like, having spent the day with esports, you know, I'll just kind of share my experiences because I actually think there's lots of stuff in there that is really not that helpful for bounce back ability. So I was having a KFC in the morning, which is cool for me, but, like, I'm not sure it was gonna likely be that helpful for the athletes. The stuff you mentioned about social, so lots of followers, lots of judgment. Yeah. Money. So, again, young people earning lots of money with very little life experiences or perhaps people around them to support them with that. Big crowds, so some of them are getting watched by lots of people, aren't they? I actually thought, like, they hadn't thought that much about how they communicate with one another either in the game or between the game.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:37]:
So, actually, that ability to kind of either create belonging through peer to peer feedback or actually become tactically better. I was really intrigued by that. And also I wasn't sure if I saw bits that I get sometimes I see in professional sports where I think, I'm not sure you love this anymore. Like, I'm I think you probably enjoyed a bit more when you're not practicing with the team here and you're just playing. And and I guess because there's so there's this

Simon Ursell [00:17:04]:
That's just a description of pro sport, Rusty, though. That's got nothing to do with e sport. That is just pro sport.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:11]:
And and just, you know, there's always another cab off the rank, almost more so than pro sport. Because in pro sport, there are millions of people waiting to play in the NBA. Yeah. Because they they have the physical profile, whereas, you know, you look at, you know, countries like like China and, you know, then although I think China reduced the amount of time people would spend on the Internet, haven't they? But there is

Caleb Cousins [00:17:33]:
a there's a esports are still huge. Yeah. It's

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:36]:
still huge. Well, there's But but, you know, if if I don't do my job, then there's another 100 thousands of people over there waiting to do my job. So Yeah. I'm curious, like, that's what I experienced. Now is Oh, that

Simon Ursell [00:17:47]:
sounds so stressful. Sounds really stressful.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:49]:
I wasn't doing it now. Wow. And then so I guess, like, have I had a good insight into what it might feel like? But then also yeah. What where do you think you've had impact upon that?

Caleb Cousins [00:18:01]:
Yeah. I mean, just to speak to a few of those points. I mean, one of the interesting dynamics about esports, that traditional sports don't have. So there's a couple things. 1, the meta changes in in esports and every esports title, every every 2 or 3 weeks, typically. What that means is that the game itself is changing and being updated. And the rule so it's it's like they're changing the the shot clock number in the NBA on a every 2 week basis. It would

Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:31]:
Oh, yeah.

Caleb Cousins [00:18:31]:
Totally change how teams and players have to train and how much they have to train. And so that's why you get into this grind set this this grind mindset, and you're and you're playing the game 16 hours a day because the characters you're playing, they're getting stronger, weaker on every 2 week basis. The map that you're playing on is changing. The items that you're buying are changing. All of the different variables that make you good at what you're doing change on a, like, every like, twice a month basis. And and so, like, traditional sport doesn't have that. And so that's that's one really interesting dynamic. And then the other interesting dynamic from a pro perspective is that there isn't a path to pro or really a grassroots scene in the industry today.

Caleb Cousins [00:19:20]:
And so when you go pro, you've gotten pro because you've grinded the game solo, and you've you've climbed the ranks, and you are, like, top in the world but in a solo capacity. And so you've never played on a team before you get into a pro environment usually. So you've never had to communicate really with your teammates. You just had to be the best player on your team and carry your team to victory. And so the the team dynamic is one of the areas where we have had a huge impact is helping the players and the coaches understand what it's like and what it means to be on a team and bring in some of those best practices so that they can function together better. They can communicate more effectively. They can, again, start to build that belonging because that's lacking in every esports team right now. It's like they they feel no connection to the their team a little bit more to their teammates, but not really even then.

Caleb Cousins [00:20:16]:
And so there's there's a lot of, like I said, low hanging fruit, that, again, is only gonna take time to develop. But we're on the we're on the, front lines trying to develop that with all of our clients.

Simon Ursell [00:20:29]:
So do you I'm curious about superstars. Yeah? So do you do you have I mean, you I guess you must be. I mean, this shows migrants here, but do you have 1 or 2 people that are just ridiculously good at this and are way better than everyone else. So is that actually not the case? Is there just a lot of people and then, you know, you that sort of peak's just gonna last a very short period of time?

Caleb Cousins [00:20:52]:
So two things about that. 1, when we talk about esports, it's like saying sport.

Simon Ursell [00:20:57]:
Yeah.

Caleb Cousins [00:20:57]:
It's a very general term. There's, like, 20, 30 esport titles, which are like the football, the basketball, the the soccer, what what have you. And so each esport has their superstars. 100%.

Simon Ursell [00:21:13]:
Okay. Yeah.

Caleb Cousins [00:21:15]:
And and and there's, like, some glow there's, like, regional superstars. There's global superstars. There's there's different levels to it just like in in traditional sport. But, yes, the the the superstardom is concept is very much alive and well.

Simon Ursell [00:21:30]:
Yeah. Sure. So that I was just wondering about the pressure on the individual as well as the team coming out of that, which has gotta be pretty gigantic as well. It does strike me that it's nothing like pro sport, not pro sport. I mean, given that the rules changing so often, sounds a little bit more like, I don't know, maybe, maybe like the way, guys like Gary Bamford and Justin Reuter, the sort of military guys are really thinking their their environments changes constantly, don't they? They're constantly having to adapt to a changing environment. In pro sport, most of the games don't change. I mean, you are Yeah. You're playing the same game you played when you were 4, that you're playing with with some minor role changes that are very, very inconsequential generally.

Simon Ursell [00:22:12]:
By the time you get to pro sport, you're playing the same game, really.

Caleb Cousins [00:22:17]:
So I would say military, and I would say kind of the start up life and business are, like, the two best examples of what the day to day environment looks like within an esports perspective. It's like unpredictable, chaotic, stressful, but also kind of fun.

Simon Ursell [00:22:36]:
Well, say, obsessing about environment as we do, Rusty, there's also the individual. There's you got the individual resilience, haven't you? And I guess in this, we're talking about individuals that have come through. Is there a character type? Is there a background? Is there something, you know, is it like, I don't know, like you get in sort of the like the Olympics, which is on now while we're recording this, where you've got some individuals. I mean, I think there's a stat around multiple Olympians that every single one of them has had a major crisis in their life. So it's all those those challenges that are put in front of people that may make them more resilient. Is that something you're observing?

Caleb Cousins [00:23:12]:
So I think the my coaches would be better off answering this. I think the the one thing that I can speak to is that the the best players in any esport title tend to be much like in traditional sport, they are hyper competitive. And so that that makes the grind culture and everything else worth it for them because as long as they're staying on top of their competition and they're working hard in their competition, they're going to outperform their competition. And so that's that's kind of a very typical mindset for for some of the superstars and some of the people who last longer in the space and have a longer career, is you just your identity is in kind of winning competition and the competitive, I guess, framework or mindset. And and that's what gets you through and makes you successful.

Simon Ursell [00:24:06]:
Wow. Okay. I mean, mean, and that that kind of speaks to it being such a new thing as well, doesn't it? Because when you look in traditional sports at the teams that have longevity and have gone on and on, thinking about teams like the All Blacks in rugby, they've created a culture and a supportive network around them where the sort of ultra competitive individual is almost not brought in. Well, they're very careful how they bring those guys in and often they won't because they want to have people that are gonna support each other. And it's all about the team, not the individual, isn't it? I mean, so is that something that you guys are working on to try and help those teams become really high performing teams where they're super supportive of each other and it's not about the one super competitive person that always wins?

Caleb Cousins [00:24:51]:
100%. I mean, that supportive environment is a key part of what we do because it's it's lacking at every level within the space. I mean, usually so it is a very international sport. And so you'll have players brought in by a North American team from China or South Korea or Europe, and they're coming to North America for the first time in their lives. And they're given an apartment and asked to train every day, and that's it. They're not supported like they like, most of them don't speak the language. Sometimes there's language,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:30]:
but they do they do the they own the house at KFC.

Simon Ursell [00:25:33]:
They do they do what? Sorry.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:35]:
They own the house at KFC, and they own and they have to say Uber Eats. Yeah. That's generally the diet I've seen.

Caleb Cousins [00:25:42]:
Yes. No. And and that's absolutely absolutely right. And, I mean, the idea of marginal gains that you have in traditional sports where you're looking for that fraction of a percentage point competitive advantage, really, we're talking about maximal gains still at in esports. So, like, nutrition is something you can touch on. But unless you have the supportive environment and the right leaders in place and that kinda thing, touching on nutrition is really just, like, going way too deep into, an area that isn't gonna have the maximal impacts you need first. Obviously, it will have an impact. But, like, there's again, there's so many things that need to be set in place and foundations need to put in before it even makes sense to tackle diet or tackle exercise, even though, again, that's part of the work that we do on a regular basis with these teams as well because players want to look good or feel better or whatever.

Caleb Cousins [00:26:40]:
Yeah. There's so much opportunity for growth within the industry. And part of our and my continued reminder to my staff is, like, we need to bring focus. We need to bring focus as a business. We need to bring focus to the clients that we work with to focus on the things that are gonna have the most impact on the individuals, but also on the collective and the organizations we work.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:08]:
Some stuff I was thinking about, and I I mean, my experience with the best players I've coached is they're all really competitive. I think to time what you said, Simon, like, often we're working with them to understand, like, when they overuse their competitiveness, or they use it in their own context, and it becomes problematic for them. You know, that can happen quite a lot in team environments. But just yes. I I guess if I was thinking about your world, just, yeah, helping people belong, lonely people, thousands of hours from home, living in the flat on their own often at an age they shouldn't be living away from home. They haven't got

Caleb Cousins [00:27:43]:
the skills.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:44]:
Helping the coaches be better coaches, you know, a bit like, you know, the ex pros that exist in football and rugby and probably have the tech tax stuff but don't have the craft, understand feedback, or create great environments. I guess, also, your ability as a player to to learn better, to maybe interact with coaches better and understand that. And I thought a bit about helping players have multiple identities because, you know, they're a person that's just like a gamer, and that's their identity. It's gonna be quite challenging for you when the next cab off the rank comes in, and then and then I just kind of thought about the the psychological skills. You know, is it focus? Is it teamwork? Is it you know, what are the skills that are required? So I imagine you'd be delving into all of that stuff then because me and Simon love Mustafa Sarika so much and the environment, like Yeah. The ability of the leaders and the coaches to actually create an environment that allows people to thrive. Because I can imagine there's some environments out there where people are literally, like, on their on their knees.

Caleb Cousins [00:28:52]:
And by

Simon Ursell [00:28:52]:
the way, Kate, Mustafa Sarker is a psychologist based in Nottingham, just because you probably don't know that. But we but we but we absolutely love Mustafa, though. He's amazing. Sorry I interrupted you.

Caleb Cousins [00:29:05]:
No, you're okay. The the identity piece is is a huge one that we try to focus on with the individual athletes and coaches that we work with. Because, again, it is like, the the career length in esports is, like, the shortest career length of any sport out there right now, which it shouldn't be.

Simon Ursell [00:29:24]:
How how long is it?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:29:25]:
Which length?

Caleb Cousins [00:29:27]:
So the so the last stats I heard, and this was a couple years ago, so it might have improved slightly since then. But, like, it's, like, 3 years. 3 or 4 years.

Simon Ursell [00:29:35]:
Wow.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:29:39]:
So And then you're and then you're old. Then you're old. Because if you're, like old. 24, 25, you might be old in esports.

Caleb Cousins [00:29:46]:
No. A 100%. And that it shouldn't necessarily be the case. I I mean, we we have some of the best players in the world still playing, and they're they're getting into the mid, late twenties, getting to 30. I think I think there's a there's an encounter

Simon Ursell [00:30:01]:
right there. Hope, Rusty. We could do it we could do it, Rusty.

Caleb Cousins [00:30:03]:
That's right.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:30:05]:
Are you interested, Greg? Are there any 49 year olds who are, like, top of the league?

Simon Ursell [00:30:10]:
53. 53.

Caleb Cousins [00:30:11]:
There are there are some senior there are some senior esports leagues out there and launching kind of all the

Simon Ursell [00:30:17]:
We're not interested in senior leagues. We got it. We got we wanna be at the top of the game at 53. Wow. I mean, 3 years. That is I mean, I I've got to say this is so this is so exciting. I mean, you're at the start of this. I mean, I mean, to call it an e sport is almost wrong.

Simon Ursell [00:30:38]:
It doesn't sound like, I mean, I know it's a sport that's competitive and it's got rules and the rest of it, but it's almost totally different, isn't it? It's so exciting to be sat in there thinking about how to add on some pretty basic stuff to make them better. I mean, you've got to be able to help people last longer than 3 years. I mean, you know, how intense it is. Okay. But there's got to be stuff you can do to do that. And that's so exciting, isn't it, to be right at the start of that? Wow.

Caleb Cousins [00:31:07]:
Yeah. Well and so part of that influence of the the burnout culture, the grind culture, it's it's coming from China and South Korea who are I mean, those are the 2 strongest regions in all of the biggest esports.

Simon Ursell [00:31:19]:
Sure. They're not doing 48 weeks in China and not and South Korea.

Caleb Cousins [00:31:23]:
So No. So if you look at if you look at China and how they do it, the biggest Chinese or esports organizations, they'll have their main team. And they'll then they'll have 5, 6, like, teams or academy teams under that main team. That is, basically, they're there so that when they burn out their top player, they've got 30 of the next best Chinese players ready to take their place. And so they can push them 6, 7 days a week, 16 hours a day, and push and push and push because they've got the the volume of people interested in it to to and they've got the developmental systems, albeit they're not set up in a sustainable fashion.

Simon Ursell [00:32:05]:
Or even then, like, they could be does it? I mean, so fashion. We're talking about bounce back ability here. Because one of the things is if you can if you can take somebody who's got those basic skills and build and build and build on those skills and keep them in the game because, you know, you're looking after them and you're creating a great environment for them and not feeding them KFC in the morning, good diets. No. I mean, are they all on they're all drinking, you know, sugary caffeinated drinks?

Caleb Cousins [00:32:28]:
Red ball.

Simon Ursell [00:32:29]:
Yeah. Straight on the monsters. Yeah. Well, I mean, because stuff like that, it's not gonna help performance, is it? I mean, that's that's a I mean, you go to that, they'd be better. Just straight away like that.

Caleb Cousins [00:32:40]:
And do you see it at these international competitions when a South Korean team or a Chinese team who who, like, they've they're one of the favorites going in and they fail Yeah. Whether it's at final or in the semifinal, whatever, the players don't know how to handle it, and they collapse. They they they are sobbing. The number of times I've seen a player on stage having just lost, sobbing, or won for that matter, just lost emotional control because they're of the pressure that they're feeling. They don't know how to process it. They're not given the support to process it and deal with it. It's, again, that's that's part of why I'm so passionate about this space is the ability to have an impact on a new generation of of athlete but just a person. Because, again, more kids are playing games right now than they are playing traditional sport.

Caleb Cousins [00:33:30]:
Not just as that's just the reality. And so esports is the next frontier to be able to have that kind of an impact that traditional sport had on all of our lives, where you're learning life skills and teamwork and respect and coachability and all of these things. That's part of the reason why I'm so jazzed to be in this industry because we're gonna be doing that for generations to come because generations to come are gonna be gaming and not playing football or rugby or whatever it might be.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:33:59]:
I guess to one of the other areas that's relevant to all of this is this kind of you've already referenced it from a coming into a team point of view, but these transitions and, you know, and at 24 when you've got 23 or 22 when you've retired well, you haven't retired, have you? You've actually got a probably going into the real world. I'm sure some of them are making enough money that they don't need to, but there's gonna be some pretty challenging transitions from a resilience point of view, I would imagine.

Caleb Cousins [00:34:28]:
Well, you see I mean, there's a desperation for for players who retire. They wanna become coaches because that's the only other kind of career opportunity they see in front of them because they were a really good player. Let me try to create a coaching career out of this. And if that doesn't work, then, okay, can I work on staff on one of these teams, or can I work as a as a shout cast or a commentator of 1 of these or for a league kind of thing? But if it if they can't leverage the the network and the name they've made for themselves within their game itself, they have very few marketable skills, and experience to be able to go and get a job in the real world. And that's part of what kind of my coaches love to do is, again, if we can impart some of those life skills that are transferable to these individuals, we're setting them up to perform in their game today or setting them up to perform in their life as long as as long as they as long as they kind of live kind of thing.

Simon Ursell [00:35:27]:
Well, that would be that would what you've described there is a high performance team, isn't it, according to Mustafa? So, you know, you got very high support but very high challenge. That's high performance. And you've got, you're adding that support. And so if if they're thinking, actually, I have got some options outside of this sport, so I'm not desperate, they're probably gonna perform better. Because the once that sort of panic takes over that, oh, I'm gonna lose. If you're if you're thinking, well, that's okay, but I'm gonna keep going, you might turn it around.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:55]:
But if you're panicking, and that I I imagine in a in a fraction

Simon Ursell [00:35:55]:
of a second type industry like this, where I'm assuming you've got to make decisions super, super, super, second type industry like this, where I'm assuming you've got to make decisions super, super fast, that's just gonna that those kind of challenge if you if you've got, like, all these academy teams like they've got in China sat below you where you know another kid's just gonna come in, You're gonna you're gonna panic, and then you're gonna perform really badly because you've got no support. So high challenge no support is is a relentless environment, and that is a very poor performing environment. So it sounds like it sounds like you're applying some of those principles, but again, so exciting. I mean, wow. To be in this sort of industry where this is going at such a pace, but there's also such poor attention being paid to this stuff, you can have a massive impact pretty fast. I mean, are you seeing that happening?

Caleb Cousins [00:36:46]:
Yeah. I mean, it's it's it's one thing, though. So it is very exciting, and it does attract a lot of great great minds and and and interested coaches from different different industries. But it's a conversation I have with anyone before I I bring them onto our team or if they're just wanting to pick my brain about the the industry in general. You needed an immense amount of patience though still in this because although it's a new industry and it's very dynamic, Gaming organizations have been doing things the way they've been doing things for 10, 20 years already. And so trying to break that and innovate on that stuff, it still takes a lot of time. And then on top of that, the athlete pop population is has not grown up with the kind of support that we wanna bring. And so I would say I would say in in any team of 5, because 5 is like an average size for an esports team, you'd have one player who is bought in and curious and interested in engaging in getting better and learning, and and you'd have one player who's curious to learn more but kind of on the fence.

Caleb Cousins [00:37:56]:
Then you'd have probably 3 players who are not interested and you need to convince and or you will never convince to engage in the process. And so if you don't have the patience to see this out long term and view this as a long term impact and long term

Simon Ursell [00:38:12]:
project Sure. Sure.

Caleb Cousins [00:38:13]:
You're gonna you're gonna burn out and get frustrated in this industry like any other industry. Of course.

Simon Ursell [00:38:17]:
Of course. And, you know, culture takes time to change, doesn't it? I mean, you know, culture is one of the most the things people most aggressively hold on to. So if the culture is no support, high challenge, then and you're trying to turn that around, that is a shipping container, isn't it? I mean, that's gonna take a heck of a long time to turn around. I mean, I completely hear that. People don't like change. I mean, that's one of the

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:38]:
What's, what what's your favorite piece of feedback you received, Caleb? What's been the thing that you've been most proud of?

Caleb Cousins [00:38:47]:
I think I think the work that we've done with the specific team I'll I'll I'll share a bit of a story here. So, my director performance is a guy by the name of Matt Fisher. He's brilliant. He comes from traditional sports working in the Olympic system in Canada. He's been with me for 4 years. 3 years ago, we started working with the Call of Duty team called the New York Subliners, and we came in because the team needed help with one of their star players who was, was having kind of there were mental blockers blocking his performance, and so we came in to fix a fire, which is usually how we come into any team. It's like there's a fire burning, go put it out. So we'll shoot it out.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:29]:
I'll bring you in there, put fires out.

Caleb Cousins [00:39:31]:
Yeah. Yeah. On the back of doing a good job there, building relationship with the organization and with the individuals, we've been working with that team now for the last 3 years. And they they went from a bottom 2 team in the league to winning the world championship last year, winning I think it it was 4 of the last 10 major tournaments in the last 2 years, and doing so with a with a traditional sport culture that we have been able to to put in place. So doing so with a coaching staff that is supportive in a supportive environment for all the players, and having all of the players and the coaches speak to that year over year over these last 2 years where they've started to have success and point to that as being the the differentiating factor in it wasn't about the talent, although they had good talent. It wasn't it was about culture, and it was about the coaching and and everything else. That has been the most satisfying. And and, again, there's there's number of case studies like that that are ongoing for us and and, hopefully many, many more to come as well because that's exactly the kind of work we wanna do, a work that hopefully leaves leaves a legacy so that when we stop working with them, they've got leveled up coaches internally and and a defined culture internally that lives on long after we are gone and working with maybe one of their competitors or or what have you.

Simon Ursell [00:41:01]:
Yeah. Sure. I mean, you're turning the oil tank around, aren't you? That that's and that's you know, you're showing them what, I guess, we all kinda know, which is great culture means great performance. Yes. Yeah. Nice.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:14]:
Do you think it will live on, like because the other thing that esports has is, like, high turnover of people. Yeah. How, like

Caleb Cousins [00:41:24]:
Honestly, Rusty, like, it it will live on. It it has the same chance of living on as it does in traditional sports. It's all about the people. So when so I'm a big Manchester City fan. When Pep Guardiola leaves Manchester City, there's gonna be a massive hole there that needs filling. And they might fill it, but it's gonna look different regardless, and it's going going to be successful or not regardless. Same in in esports and and with us. When we leave, we will have the people in place and the structures in place, and then it's about the people who we leave behind to champion it and keep it going.

Simon Ursell [00:42:02]:
Well, storytelling, isn't it? I mean, it's it's a bit of Claire Murphy who we've had on this post as well as a who's a storyteller. When people come into the into the team, if the rest of the team are able to tell stories about what's happened before, then that's that's how cultures last. I mean, human beings are all about telling stories. They tell each other stories all of the time. So if you get, people coming into that team and they're the people who are already in there maybe are telling stories about people who have left and so on and so on and so on. The culture will remain as long as the stories are powerful.

Caleb Cousins [00:42:35]:
Yeah. It's the the Owen Eastwood, Pakalpapa concept. It's like what you leave behind and and just building on that lex legacy over and over again. And I think, it's there's a responsibility to the corporate side of these teams as well because I think you can tell that story within the environment effectively. I mean, traditional sport teams do it all the time. You've got pictures of, like, great late, great teams in in dressing rooms, and you've got slogans and stuff on the on the tunnel coming out and everything else. And esport teams need to do a better job of of creating the physical environment that tells the story and that can help facilitate the culture that they want.

Simon Ursell [00:43:15]:
Yeah. Because there's still a

Caleb Cousins [00:43:17]:
They want their team to embody.

Simon Ursell [00:43:18]:
There's still a there's still a sign on the tunnel coming into Anfield with this is Anfield, which the players will touch. You know? And that's and they know that all the all the heroes from the past have touched that same sign. That is powerful and helps them that helps them get into the culture of their team, doesn't it? So, again, well, I'm so excited for this because, you know, you guys have got the opportunity to build these kind of legacies from the from the start. It's so cool. Love it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:45]:
Yeah. Yeah. What, what next? What's the where do you think the next kind of level of of your game is gonna be?

Caleb Cousins [00:43:54]:
The next level of my game is is trying to expand our, our impact within the industry and and maybe beyond because I think we've we've become very good at the business of supporting coaches. I think that coaches are, in any industry, one of the most undersupported groups of people and the people who give so much of themselves but don't really get anything in return. And so I'm really passionate about, looking to develop and support more coaches in our industry and then start to explore, like, supporting coaches and where the needs are outside of the industry. And and I'm just passionate about working with great coaches at the end of the day. I think I think esports is a great place for coaches to come and have an impact and and develop. I think it's it's easier place to start than traditional sports in some ways because there is so much low hanging fruit. So you get much better experience earlier in your career than you would becoming a junior strength and conditioning coach at a rugby club or or what have you.

Simon Ursell [00:44:57]:
It's just an incubator, isn't it? But it's gonna it's but it is gonna be super, super hard. I mean, yeah, you can go and be a strength and conditioning coach. You know what that is. I mean and you cannot do a course, can't you? But to go into something like that, you've gotta be curious. You've gotta try and fail a bit and work on work on some principles that you that you believe in that will that will then go through to having a lasting impact. It's it is super, super exciting and I'd imagine very, very challenging, but at the same time, just gonna you're gonna learn so quick because it's such a fast moving new thing.

Caleb Cousins [00:45:34]:
And we don't have all the answers. Like, I've had coach some of my coaches have burnt out over the last 2 years. Like, we we we didn't do a good enough job putting them in a position to be successful in a sustainable way. But I think that the the Incubator idea, I think, also what esports has is it's very much a mental sport. And so the the emphasis on mental skills training, on mental health and mental performance is paramount. And that as an incubator is so important if you ever wanna go work into in business, work with executives, work in traditional sports, which I think there's more and more of an emphasis and focus on the mental side, albeit it's always gonna be secondary because the fit it is a physical endeavor. And so it's a really, really great place to get in

Simon Ursell [00:46:22]:
That sounds amazing.

Caleb Cousins [00:46:24]:
Get experience and stressful experience. And like you're gonna you're gonna grow. You're gonna be forced to grow and do things that you never thought you'd be doing before, but you'll come out of it with skills and experiences you never would have thought.

Simon Ursell [00:46:38]:
Yeah. For a young, hungry coach who really wants to learn fast, it's I mean, it's I don't I can't think

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:44]:
of any

Simon Ursell [00:46:44]:
anywhere better than a coach because it's just the pace. You're just gonna learn so much. Yeah. So what would be in terms of bringing it back to bounce back ability resilience? So you talk about it being a mental, sport. What would be your top three things that you would say these these are the things we've learned. These are the these are my top three, maybe big picture ones. I don't wanna put you on the spot too much here. But what what would your top three things be? They say you say to somebody, if you if you're coming in as a coach into this environment, here's your top three.

Caleb Cousins [00:47:20]:
What I'll do, I'll I'll use my kind of journey as as that example because in in a lot of ways, I'm a coach of my coaches. I'm managing my coaches, and so I'm Love it. I'm a coach too. Really, over the last 6, 7 years, what's gotten me through good times, hard times, there's there are probably 3 things. 1 is if you don't have a good community around you outside of your work but also within your work, you're just not going to last. There's there's no chance. So, like, family is key. Friends are key.

Caleb Cousins [00:47:52]:
Outside of work, having good relationships within work, I mean, those have been so critical for me. A layer on top of that, mentorship. So if you don't have a mentor actively seeking one out and then and then being disciplined around having someone there that you can share your challenges with, your wins with, and that will push you further. Having that sounding board is is invaluable. It has been invaluable for me. Number 3. Do I have a number 3?

Simon Ursell [00:48:26]:
Come on. You've definitely got a number 3. You've mentioned a few other things. Must

Caleb Cousins [00:48:28]:
have a number 3. Gotta give

Simon Ursell [00:48:29]:
you a nudge. What about, what about, what about things like, I mean, we could get a diet. We could talk about environment. We could talk about,

Caleb Cousins [00:48:41]:
Yeah. So so I mean, taking care of yourself. Absolutely. And so, part of my journey and something that I've encouraged all my coaches to continue is like, if you're not, like, getting exercise in on a regular basis, if you're not eating properly, if you're not sleeping properly. Although, I'm not maybe the best example of that right now with with reenacting.

Simon Ursell [00:49:03]:
You're trying. You're trying. Go on, Kurt.

Caleb Cousins [00:49:05]:
If you're not if you're not focusing on your own wellness, you're not gonna last either. And that stress is going to get to you have a have a detrimental impact on you. Because stress is a good thing. Stress forces you

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:17]:
to

Caleb Cousins [00:49:17]:
grow and and and improve. But if you if you don't have the the community, the resources internally through wellness routines, that kind of thing, it's just gonna be it's just not sustainable. You won't last.

Simon Ursell [00:49:30]:
Stress is essential to the human condition. It's you know, you can't grow without stress. However, we all have a capacity for stress. And the more you work on your capacity, the more you're able to do, the more you're able to grace. So everyone needs stress, but if you if your capacity isn't big enough to take it, it breaks you. So you gotta be mindful of that, haven't you? So yeah. Yep. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:49:49]:
Love it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:51]:
One more question from my wife tells me. Where do you because you are at this incubator and coach development and coach education doesn't currently really exist. You don't have, like, a level 1. I assume you don't have, like, a level 1 esports coaching course, level 2, and and that type of stuff. Well, where do you think it's gonna go where? Like, you are a ground 0 of coach development. Where do you think it could go? Do you think it's gonna copy other sports? Do you think it's gonna go in a similar direction, or do you think it's

Simon Ursell [00:50:21]:
I really hope it doesn't copy other sports.

Caleb Cousins [00:50:24]:
I think it would I think, unfortunately, it it will in ways because No way. It's too easy a template to follow for people in in our industry. I I I would prefer that people take a more innovative approach as well, but it the the low the, the ease the path of least resistance is often the path taken, and and that's gonna be the case here as well.

Simon Ursell [00:50:46]:
That's sad.

Caleb Cousins [00:50:48]:
I mean so we've we've developed a lot of, let's call it, content and curriculum for coaches. We've considered going the coach, like, coach certification route, but we just think that that's a a gatekeeping play that is just so uninteresting to me. We're we're about we're about applied coach development, honestly. So we like, my director performance meets weekly with all of our coaches to to provide that mentorship. We have a ton of tools and templates and stuff that that coaches can bring into their to make them more effective. We are continually creating community and roundtable peer to peer discussion so that coaches can learn from each other within that. And so just creating that ecosystem of support, I think is far more valuable to coaches and and far more interesting to develop as as a developer of coaches because you can do a course, but, like, courses are so uninteresting to me.

Simon Ursell [00:51:54]:
I'm with you, Kat. And I that's one of my favorite phrases I've heard on the pod, applied coach development. That is cool.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:02]:
I I

Simon Ursell [00:52:02]:
wanna do applied coach development.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:05]:
So context more.

Simon Ursell [00:52:07]:
Is there. Love it.

Caleb Cousins [00:52:08]:
Yeah. It is. And that's the thing. Like, every every team in esports is a different context. And so if you're coaching 1 team and versus another, you're gonna need different skills and different tools and different everything. And so trying to trying to think that you can fit everything a coach needs into one course or one certification, it, it riles me up. Don't get me started.

Simon Ursell [00:52:31]:
I'm with you. I'm with you. I I hear that. I hear that. Right. We're gonna need to wrap it up there. Say, thanks for coming on, Caleb. I mean, brilliant.

Simon Ursell [00:52:39]:
Abs I really loved this. That is so cool.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:42]:
I think it would be, like, Simon's gonna be getting Daley Thompson's decathlon out. He's gonna be practicing it again. Yeah. I am. I am.

Simon Ursell [00:52:50]:
I'm gonna give myself arthritis then, that's I don't know. I might find something low impact, Bailey Tomflin's decathlon, I think. But, yeah, thanks, Caleb. Really appreciate your time.

Caleb Cousins [00:53:02]:
Oh, thanks. Thanks for having me on. I love this this concept and, looking forward to listening to more podcasts in the future.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:10]:
Thank you, Kent.

Simon Ursell [00:53:11]:
See you.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:12]:
Over and out. Awesome pod. Well done, Simon, for only mentioning Daley Thompson's decathlon three times.

Simon Ursell [00:53:21]:
I I saw his eyes light up when I mentioned Daley Thompson's decathlon. In fact, I'm pretty confident he has never heard of Daley Thompson's decathlon.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:30]:
Yeah. I think he was humoring you while you were talking to your fingers.

Simon Ursell [00:53:35]:
A little bit. Embarrassing myself again. What a great guy though. I mean, I mean, the opportunity, in that arena for him and bounce back ability has got me quite excited for him.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:53:52]:
It's ginormous. You know, there's literally, like, millions of people that could be helped through this. And it's also, like, brand new, isn't it? So

Simon Ursell [00:54:02]:
I mean, I I mean, it's ridiculous. It's blowing my mind because you got you know, you got 1,000,000,000 worldwide. I mean, every every person under, I don't know what, under the age of 25 is playing some kind of online game. I mean, it's it's it's it's a lot of people. And and going into these kinds of sports with under so much pressure, and it's just it just feels pretty poorly put together. And Caleb's trying to do something about it. So he's got it's just exciting. I just think it's it's incredible.

Simon Ursell [00:54:34]:
What what an unbelievably cool job.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:54:38]:
Yeah. No. I would suspect I guess the challenge for him is the just this moving, you know, getting it going, moving it because obviously they've got lots of traditions and probably leans into, like, just bits of the end. Anyway, you asked him to nail the 3, the 3 main things and that kind of resilience by community and mentoring for himself. Those two things are probably, you know, they come up regularly, but if you're especially if you're in a situation, because again, he's going to need bounce back ability. He's, he's working in a world that is kind of probably quite fixed on how they've done things. So the people around him are clearly critical for, you know, to support his resilience as well.

Simon Ursell [00:55:23]:
Yeah. I mean, yeah, for sure. I mean, absolutely, that that whole community thing is is fundamental, isn't it? I mean, you know, let's let's mention Mustafa Wells more. But the environment the environment the environment that community which they're in, and it doesn't sound great, so the opportunity to make it better quickly is great. But he is gonna come up against a lot of resistance to that because, you know, set in their ways. Let's just chuck kids into the meat grinder and push them through. Those kinds of things are going to happen, aren't they? And he's he's railing against that, which is really nice.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:55:56]:
Yeah. And, obviously, you're on 10% from Mustapha. What's your second what's your second kind of thing that you learned?

Simon Ursell [00:56:05]:
Well, the I love the the phrase he was using, applied coach development. It's not a phrase I've heard used before, and I really like it. I think it sums up, you know, coach divert he didn't like training courses, and I thought that was great. You know, he's basically looking at how he wants to do things differently. That just doesn't interest him, and I've I've gotta I've gotta admit that really speaks to me. I think that's great. I mean, I'm not a big one for sticking people on a on a course and expecting them to be qualified, you know, giving them a badge, say I have this level of coaching. I mean, it almost doesn't mean anything.

Simon Ursell [00:56:37]:
You can be a terrible coach and have a badge, can't you? And applying applying that to the environment you're in, to the people you're with in a in a meaningful way is what gets results. Love the phrase.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:56:49]:
Yeah. It's it's fascinating for me. I mean, shout out to Danny Newcomb, and we do lots of what you are now calling applied coach development, with the Premier League.

Simon Ursell [00:56:58]:
Steal the phrase, Rusty, it's a good phrase.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:01]:
And while, editing the sports that are just coming into the Olympics, like skateboarding and obviously, you know, as Caleb said, like, there's a Esports Olympics now, like, to see how they approach coach development is fascinating. So, you know, how is skateboarding where people have learned on their own or esports where people have learned on their own previously gonna, like, see coaching. How they're gonna view the world of coaching and then the world of coach development is fascinating to me.

Simon Ursell [00:57:29]:
Yeah. I mean, I'm with you there. I'm so I'm I'm excited about this one because of the because of the newness and the potential. It's just ridiculous. I really wanna get in and see an esports team now. I don't know. I mean, I'm gonna be googling. There's gonna be a a bold old man watching esports

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:48]:
completely confused. Yeah. I think you're blending almost seamlessly.

Simon Ursell [00:57:53]:
I will.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:57:54]:
I guess, imagine most of the most of the kids will be wearing tweed.

Simon Ursell [00:57:59]:
I I reckon they will. Maybe tweed. Maybe, yeah, maybe they'll have gray beards. I don't know. Bit of classy knitwear. But, yeah, I I mean, I just think it's fascinating. I think that the opportunity, the potential to help people is like nothing else. I can't think of anything where there's more potential, and Caleb's right at the cutting edge.

Simon Ursell [00:58:23]:
What a cool guy.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:58:24]:
Well, watch this space. Let's see, 10 years time where Ursula is in the world of esports.

Simon Ursell [00:58:29]:
Yeah. I could be up there. Imagine. No. Let's be honest. That's not that's not gonna happen. But I am fascinated, and I and I think Caleb's just yeah. What what a great guy because that is that is a guy who's gonna be hopefully changing the world a bit.

Simon Ursell [00:58:48]:
So exciting stuff. Can

Rusty Earnshaw [00:58:50]:
great pod. Over and out.

Simon Ursell [00:58:52]:
Over and out.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:58:53]:
Thanks so much for joining us on the Ban Specularly podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can I reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:59:03]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursel, u r s for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:59:10]:
TikTok? No. Not really. LinkedIn, Ross Blanchaw. And then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts

Simon Ursell [00:59:17]:
Yeah. Second that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:59:18]:
Over and out.