Mindset Transformation: Karim Rushdy on Overcoming Adversity and Embracing a Beginner's Mindset | Episode 21

On today’s episode, we have the pleasure of exploring resilience and mindfulness with our special guest, Karim Rushdy. Our conversation centres around his inspiring journey of transformation through challenges, including years of chronic back pain and a significant financial loss. We talk about the profound impact of cultivating a beginner’s mindset, re-framing life’s obstacles and achieving excellence through the practice of mindfulness has had on his life.

Karim is a mindfulness teacher, facilitator, and strategy advisor with extensive experience in Asia and the UK. After leaving university in England, he studied Mandarin in Shanghai and joined a restaurant start-up, which grew significantly before succumbing to the impacts of COVID-19 - a humbling lesson in resilience. He later earned an MBA from a leading Chinese business school and became Managing Director at a pan-Asian think tank, overseeing projects on business, policy and sustainability whilst leading leadership programs across 15 countries.

In 2013, meditation helped Karim overcome his chronic back pain, inspiring a shift in his perspective. Now, he teaches mindfulness to elite athletes, corporate leaders, and teams with Mindful Peak Performance (MPP), and serves as a Trustee at Breathworks, a mindfulness charity focused on managing pain and illness.

Karim’s insights on harmonising personal and professional growth, emphasising gratitude, service and authentic connections as cornerstones of a fulfilling life are powerful lessons. Tune in to uncover how mindfulness and a growth mindset can empower you to turn adversity into opportunities for growth and success. 

In this episode:

00:15:48 - 'No Mud, No Lotus' & ‘The Beginner's Mindset’ – theories behind the Buddhist metaphors, linking personal growth to overcoming adversities, and the significance of maintaining a beginner's mindset for continued success.

00:27:33 - Coaching & the growth mindset - the benefits of working with coaches to access growth zones and how mindfulness contributes to personal development and 'getting out of your own way.'

00:39:05 - Overcoming back pain - Karim recounts his struggle with debilitating back pain and depression, leading to a transformative journey involving mindfulness and meditation practices.

00:53:21 - The Four Buckets approach - Karim's framework for a balanced life.

01:09:42 - Resilience, financial loss & reflective gratitude - emphasising the role of gratitude and mindfulness in maintaining resilience and a positive outlook despite significant setbacks.

Connect with Karim here:

www.karim-rushdy.com

www.mindfulpeakperformance.com

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Simon Ursell [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell [00:00:08]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on. Right. Hello, everybody. Welcome to the bounce back ability podcast. We've got Carrion on today. Yeah. I think you don't know him at all, Rasty, so this is quite exciting for me because I don't think you got any idea who who he is.

Simon Ursell [00:00:24]:
Well, I'm excited to probably show the face you showed when Dave Coleman started telling his story. So I I think it's quite a good idea, isn't it, that at least one of us is surprised on every pod. I'm hoping you don't get too surprised and start getting his name wrong or anything like that.

Simon Ursell [00:00:41]:
Yep. Let's hope that doesn't happen. But, yeah, he's a he's a really interesting guy. He's got ahead of a story, and I think people are gonna be really, moved by it actually because, I mean, he's had a he's had a lot of stuff thrown at him, and and he's come out the other side a pretty great guy. So I think I think it's one of those ones that's just a great story, and so there'll be a lot of stuff people can take away, I reckon, to, learn about bounce back ability, resilience. So, yeah, he's a cool guy.

Simon Ursell [00:01:12]:
Let's go.

Simon Ursell [00:01:13]:
Let's go. Alright. Welcome to the pod, everybody. We've got Carrie on today. Fascinating story. It's quite exciting because Rusty doesn't really know what's going on this week, this month when Lee did the same thing to me last month. I didn't know what's going on. So I'm quite excited that I've that I'm doing the same thing to Rusty as as happened last episode to me.

Simon Ursell [00:01:33]:
So it'd be good to see how

Karim [00:01:34]:
So I'm just a pawn. I'm just a pawn in your Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:01:36]:
You're just a pawn in our

Karim [00:01:38]:
in our Ongoing battle.

Simon Ursell [00:01:39]:
And the ongoing battle between Rusty and Simon to see he can surprise each other the most. But yeah. So it should be good, Rusty. What what do you reckon? What are you expecting?

Simon Ursell [00:01:48]:
Well, Karen, lots of people are pawns in Simon's life, so don't don't get that. Oh, wow.

Karim [00:01:55]:
It's a privilege.

Simon Ursell [00:01:56]:
Wow. That's just so unfair.

Simon Ursell [00:01:58]:
Yeah. And then, generally, I have no idea what's going on anyway, so not

Simon Ursell [00:02:02]:
Well, that's changed. I'd second that as a thought.

Simon Ursell [00:02:05]:
I'm super excited, like, in the same way that you were having the big reveal with Dave. I'm gonna get the big reveal with Karim and kinda hopefully,

Simon Ursell [00:02:14]:
Yeah. Yeah. No pressure, Cam.

Karim [00:02:16]:
Yeah. I'm just wondering how I'm gonna bounce back from this pressure that you've you've put me under Well,

Simon Ursell [00:02:20]:
it's all about resilience, buddy. I mean, that's what the pod's about.

Karim [00:02:23]:
It's all about.

Simon Ursell [00:02:23]:
That's what that's what it's all about. So do you wanna just, maybe introduce yourself, tell us tell us a little bit about yourself? Nothing too much, and then we'll we'll talk about your story maybe.

Karim [00:02:33]:
Yeah. Can do. So, my name is Kareem. Have you already you've already said. You're You're pronouncing it wrong. I'm pronouncing it wrong.

Simon Ursell [00:02:39]:
Okay. So

Karim [00:02:40]:
My dad will be on my case.

Simon Ursell [00:02:41]:
Well, what

Karim [00:02:41]:
would how would your dad pronounce it? Kareem.

Simon Ursell [00:02:43]:
Kareem. Yeah. Okay.

Karim [00:02:44]:
So I don't think I've ever said it right. I was where do we start? Well, I was born up in the islands, Western Isles of Scotland, Outer Hebrides, way back when, and then grew up in the southeast of England, actually, in in Reading. Very normal, happy, safe childhood, I'd say, with the exception of one major event, which maybe we'll come back to a little bit later. But then at 18, I left the UK, took a gap year, and didn't come back for another 22 years. So I spent Big gap year? Yeah. It was. I spent, better part of 20 yeah. 21, 22 years living, studying, working around, Asia.

Karim [00:03:23]:
So I was in Mainland China for about a decade, Hong Kong for 7 years, and then the last post was in Malaysia. So 4 years in Malaysia before moving back to Scotland about 2 years ago. And over the course of those 22 years, did many different things, tried to learn Chinese in, in university, realized pretty early on that if you wanna learn Chinese, you've gotta make a real go of it, like, you know, 5 years, immerse yourself, go somewhere where nobody speak any English, and I I wasn't really ready for that. The the reading and the writing just kinda blew my mind. So once I had a baseline of spoken Chinese and I was in Shanghai at the time, the city was going absolutely gangbusters. This was 2,001, 2,002 Shanghai. It was probably growing in a 30, 40 percent a year. Loads of opportunities everywhere you look, so I thought I need to get out there and and kind of get involved in this.

Karim [00:04:14]:
So, worked kinda any odd job I could I could land, taught a bit of English, was doing event management, and then landed with a friend who had set up a a restaurant business, very successful one store. This was at a time where the only place to get a kind of a salad and a fresh juice in China would have been in the in the lobby cafe of a 5 star hotel. Nowadays, of course, there's juice bars and salad bars all over the place like in any any very very developed country. So he had set up this this restaurant, kinda California style, healthy eatery, you know, high quality ingredients, salads, smoothies, sandwiches, stuff like that. Proved to be very successful. He needed to expand, so he asked me if I'd come and, I had no restaurant experience, by the way. He said, could you come and help look after the main the flagship restaurant while we go out and and try and open others? And over the next 6 years, we were really successful doing that. We opened about 6 I wanna say 8 8 locations across 2 cities, Shanghai and Beijing.

Karim [00:05:14]:
So we were at 8 stores when I left. Very full on work. You know, the stores were open 6 AM till midnight. The central facilities were open. Central kitchen's open 247, so it was really, really full on, very, very intense. And after about 6 years, I my my body couldn't take it anymore. It was my girlfriend then wife now said, you you know, you might need to dial things back a bit. We worked very hard.

Karim [00:05:34]:
We played very hard as well, and it didn't help having, you know, 8 full service bars at our disposal across the different different restaurants.

Simon Ursell [00:05:41]:
Okay. Right.

Karim [00:05:42]:
So, yeah, it was a it was a I learned a lot about kinda work ethic and, working with with folks from very different backgrounds, doing that. Left that, job in 2009, was a partner, put a little bit of money in what little savings actually, mom had some savings, and she said to me at one point, I want I want you to have this and put it on some property in China. I saw a really good investment, and I said, you know what, mom? I think I'll take this money and put it in the restaurant company, and thank god I did. It it it paid dividends. I think she probably got about a 1000% return on her on her investment. Over the course of those those 6 years, we took on some some investors, some very serious investors. The first private equity firm in China came in and invested. We had another another investor with government connection.

Karim [00:06:30]:
So we're very well backed. And and after I left, actually, the company there's no correlation, by the way, but the company's growth rate went exponentially. I know. After I after I left over the next kind of 5, 7 years, they opened dozens of stores. I think at the peak, there's about 50 restaurants across 12, cities in China, one of the leading kind of fast casual brands, in China. Meanwhile, I was doing some other things, which may maybe we can come back to, but I think the the story that you, you know, you you asked me to share here was just before COVID, we started to get some interest in in, buyers for the company. And, it was around mid COVID that one of the biggest financial groups in China was very, very interested in in in purchasing the company for an amount which was, I mean, double what any of us could have even hoped for, big big feet with 9 9 figure sum, and a few tables and chairs across the restaurant still belong to me. So I had a little little piece of that pie, a minority of minority stake.

Karim [00:07:30]:
But as you do, and we were talking about this early, you know, you start to you start to do the math and and add up what might be landing in your bank account and thinking about how you're gonna spend that money. And we were planning to move back to UK at the time, so it was it couldn't have been better timing for us. I was thinking about the house we'd buy in Edinburgh and having that, you know, that buffer to start a new life. And it wasn't until the due diligence started that some some things were uncovered, which were, yeah, including some unsavory behavior by by people on the management team. Long story short, about a month after this preliminary offer came through, the company filed for bankruptcy and, has since been unraveling in a very kinda complicated, bankruptcy case. So that was huge. That was a massive loss literally and figuratively for us. I had a lot less skin in the game than many others.

Karim [00:08:22]:
Some people stood to lose and have lost a a huge amount, you know, life changing intergenerational kinda life changing money, But it was also really interesting to see kind of for for me to see myself how I responded or reacted to that that loss and, in comparison to to to others and understandably, people are very, very upset given all that had that had gone on. But that was that that was the most recent, I think, thing I've had to bounce back from, you know, and, figure out kind of a new way forward with, a lot a lot less money in the bank than had been expected.

Simon Ursell [00:08:58]:
You're being very modest because, you know, you you told me sort of some of the figures involved and you you yeah. It wasn't exactly a small amount, mate.

Karim [00:09:05]:
No. I mean, even for yeah. I could be I've had a tiny state, but it would have been absolutely life changing Yeah. For sure. So so that was and then we went through all the, you know, all the all the stages of grief and there was a period of mourning, but I think that the the work I'd done over the previous decade, particularly around kind of mindfulness and a meditation practice, which helped me bounce back from something else that that we can get into, really came to the fore then. I mean, that's when the rubber hits the road. You like to think that you're more mindful and you like to think you're more resilient, but until you get tested, you know, it's it's really hard to hard to say how you're gonna respond or react when those Sure. When those challenges are in front of you.

Karim [00:09:39]:
Yeah. Sure.

Simon Ursell [00:09:40]:
Because, I mean, we've had a lot of people on the pod, haven't we, Rusty, that have bounced back in various ways. I think Karim's Karim is probably one of the Karim. Karim is probably one of I'm not gonna keep saying that. I feel doesn't feel right.

Karim [00:09:53]:
Just butcher everything. Okay. Thank you.

Simon Ursell [00:09:55]:
Fine. I I think, you know, in terms of the intentional work he's done I mean, that story I mean, mate, a lot of people would be pretty crushed, wouldn't they? What do you reckon, Rusty? I mean, it's not about money, is it? But that's But it's nice to have.

Simon Ursell [00:10:12]:
You know, I, I actually had to write down 9 figures to work out how much 9 figures were. Yeah. Happens a bit like It

Karim [00:10:19]:
is a lot.

Simon Ursell [00:10:19]:
Oh, wow. I have to put in a couple of commas there. Yeah. That's quite a lot of money. And then then I got thinking about that's I mean, it's it's not money that you actually physically had, is it? So it's it's actually a really interesting thing to think about of like, it must happen to people all the time, which maybe happens on the radio when, you know, they ring you and you don't answer your phone in 5 rings. Yeah. You could have put half a 1000000 look, you know, to be like bullseye. Isn't it? Look at that, Karim.

Simon Ursell [00:10:50]:
Look at the prize you could have won. And then it's kind of they can't get the the speedboat out of your head. Yeah. You know? Well,

Karim [00:10:57]:
they certainly could get out of my head. That's that's for sure.

Simon Ursell [00:11:00]:
Do you feel like you've you've played with it better than some of the other guys because of what you've been through before?

Karim [00:11:08]:
Yeah. I think undoubtedly. I mean, as cliched as it sounds, the only thing at least what worked for me, and I got credit my wife, Rebecca, for this as well because she's she was a huge played a huge part in this. But turning to gratitude is really, I think, what what made the difference. So, you know, this terrible situation that that blew up all our best laid plans, what is the silver lining? What can we see in it? And and in the moment, it's very, very difficult. Right? I'm a big believer in the the there's a, you know, nice Buddhist expression, no mud, no lotus. Right? Out of the shit grows beautiful flowers, beautiful plants, and we need that we need that shit in our lives sometimes. Although at the time, it just looks and smells like shit, but you you you flash forward a few years and you look back and you realize, man, there was some really potent stuff germinating in that in that crap.

Karim [00:11:55]:
So the gratitude I had was for it actually caused a really introspective and reflective period for me of looking back at what that experience had been like, the experience of of building something from from the ground up, of meeting incredible people, of being able to change hundreds of lives when you look at the staff, you know, that that that came and worked for us at the company, the friendships that we made. And, also, eventually, I was able to see that have gratitude for how I dealt with that experience. Just dealing with the experience and having experienced it, I could now lose many different things and I think be a lot more okay with it than I than I

Simon Ursell [00:12:35]:
was before. Pretty much losing my mind, so I'd have lost I'd have lost more than a few things. I

Karim [00:12:40]:
mean, it wasn't all roses. I don't I don't want people to think that I just kinda, you know, terminated my way through this, through this thing. It was really, really tough, and it and it still is. And just when Rusty was just talking about writing down 9 figures, I'm kind of reminded now. Those 9 figures were not coming into my bank account. That even a tiny fraction of that would have been would have been lovely. So the wound is still there for sure, but I think now I I can look back on it more with with that sense of, yeah, gratitude, for lack of a better word. Nice.

Simon Ursell [00:13:10]:
Can I yeah? I was just thinking again, like, I think as you age anyway and, you know, you have kids and things happen to you in your life, you probably the order of things, the order of how you introduce yourself changes. Like, I probably sound like I'm a father, a husband, and a coach. I might have previously said I'm a coach. And I guess it's moments like this where you go, okay, what is important? Like, who am I? A little bit of that as well. What am I like? What do I measure myself for? Did it did some stuff change order at that point over time?

Simon Ursell [00:13:45]:
Why don't we why don't you, because I think you could maybe gave you some of the earlier experiences, which might give some context

Karim [00:13:51]:
to that. Sure. I I wanna come back to that because I think that ordering is really interesting. There's actually a little something I've introduced into my, regular meditation practice that that reflects that. So I'd love to come back to that point about the order of the order of priorities, or or roles that you kind of identify with. But, yeah, there were a couple of other experiences, I think, that contributed to, to that bounce back ability for lack of a I just I shouldn't say for lack of a better word. It's a brilliant word. Right?

Simon Ursell [00:14:20]:
Yeah. It's a brilliant word, isn't it, Rusty? It's the best podcast.

Simon Ursell [00:14:23]:
I mean, I mean, we could we could completely change the name of the podcast.

Karim [00:14:26]:
Anytime.

Simon Ursell [00:14:28]:
Yeah. Anytime. I've got a better word.

Karim [00:14:30]:
We'll see we'll see what we'll see what comes out of this. So for now, bounce back ability is is perfect. Yeah. You know, as a kid, so I've got I'm the eldest of 3 children. When I was 5 and by all accounts, my my mother and I were really quite inseparable for the 1st few years of our life to the point where, you know, she wouldn't even let grandma hold me for for quite a while. She was just really, you know, really quite quite protective, and her and I had this very and still do have this very special relationship. But at age 5, she had my brother, the youngest of of the 3. And, as often happens, I've I've come to learn that through that pregnancy and and that giving, giving birth, she developed very, very, very severe rheumatoid arthritis.

Karim [00:15:12]:
So this autoimmune disorder just kicked in, because of all that the body had been through. It's often a response of of of the the immune system and went from being a, you know, active, mobile, present more than present, you know, omnipresent mother to being confined to the bed. Yeah. Mobility was completely shot, I think, in the space of about a year. All the joints in the body had had gone, and people were not used to seeing this in a in a 30 you know, someone in their early thirties. And I think this was going back now was to the last almost 40. So going back about 37, 38 years, the the the way the medical profession dealt with it was by pumping her full of steroids and, you know, treating her like kind of an an 8 year old person or a 70 year old person, which really shot her health even more. So mom went from be and she was still there, but she was now in her room in bed, you know, not not present in the way that that she used to be.

Karim [00:16:11]:
And I think there were 2 things that that experience taught me. 1 was was just watching and observing, and I don't think I appreciate this at the time, but I do now. The way she dealt with it, never heard a complain, always tried to do as much as she could herself, and she had a very tough upbringing. Are you familiar with the book Angela's Ashes or the movie Angela's Ashes? Yeah. So Frank McCourt Frank McCourt lived 2 doors down from my mom. So that was her childhood and her upbringing too. Very, very kind of, you know Do

Simon Ursell [00:16:42]:
you know that story, Rusty?

Karim [00:16:45]:
Abject poverty, basically, in Ireland, Limerick, you know, back in the day. So she jokes with my my kids that back in her day, their toy was a hole that they dug in the garden. Right? That was that was where they got their entertainment. So she she was no stranger to hardship, but just to see the way that she dealt with it, and never gave up, I think, get me a great model and and, you know, nothing's you know, I think resilience like mindfulness is caught sometimes. It's not taught. You need to see people modeling it in front of you Yeah. To be able to, you know, look for for the right ways to respond and the right ways to bounce back. So that, I think, was really a special experience for me, a quite a unique experience that that helped me to see a good model of what resilience looked like.

Karim [00:17:24]:
And then I was thrown at the deep end. Dad was traveling a lot, working, so I was, you know, cooking meals for my brother and sister from age, you know, 7 onwards, dealing with the school runs, the housework, all that kind of thing. So having a great deal of responsibility, and I think things that, might throw and I see today with my kids, they can really throw kids for 6, you know, knock them for 6. I I didn't have a choice. I had to go and go and do them. So I think that really that that groundwork, that foundation was really, really important, when it came to the the bounce back ability. We'll see how many times I can use the word on the Yeah. The pod.

Karim [00:17:56]:
Bounce back. Bounce back bingo. And then in later life I mean, the move obviously from the UK to China and setting up life in China required a tremendous amount resilience. And and, you know, just over the course of of a day being a foreigner in any country, I mean, it's the same for someone who comes from China to the UK. You have to be so resilient because even the little things that we take for granted can require so much effort, could be so so complex when you're in a in another culture with a especially with another governance system. But it was about 12 years ago, 13 years ago that I was diagnosed with, woke up one day pain in the back, thought I pulled a muscle. I I was active, but I wasn't super active at the time. I mean, I played a lot of sports as a youngster, but in my twenties, a lot of that fell by the wayside, but I

Simon Ursell [00:18:42]:
was still I was still active. I was

Karim [00:18:43]:
still getting out there hiking, spending love to be in the outdoors, but there was no sporting injuries that I could pin this this back pain on. So I thought, what's going on here? Must have pulled a muscle, you know, carrying the groceries or something. And I thought it would go away after a day or 2 of rest. It it got a lot worse. And within couple of weeks, I was laid out flat on the floor, couldn't do much of anything, couldn't work, couldn't socialize, couldn't do any physical activity. Life was, yeah, horizontal on the floor, curled up in a ball, that kind of thing. And went to went through the kind of labyrinth of trying to navigate this labyrinth of of different treatments, the medical system, seeing different doctors, trying to find out what what was going on, eventually got some MRI scans, and the the diagnosis was acute lumbar spondylosis, which is a very fancy way of saying wear and tear in the back. Right? I think it's often, degenerative disc disease.

Karim [00:19:36]:
It's, often called that, but it's more than just the discs that degenerates that whole kind of all the structures in in the lower back start to degenerate. And the theory was that, it was due to a cracked vertebrae I'd sustained playing rugby as a youngster, which I'd never gotten tended to. So the MRI was showing one of the wing tips of the vertebrae being twice as thick as the other side, and the doctor's hypothesis was that instability caused this acceleration of this very natural degeneration that happens to everyone, but usually it doesn't happen for, you know, 40 or 50 years later. And I had 18 months of of, you know, debilitating pain, basically, and not being able to participate in life, not being able to show up. When my when my first daughter was born, my wife was very hesitant to even let me hold her because she was so scared that it would it would start a flare up. So it was it was a very dark period for me, spiraled kinda down into despair, depression. There's a whole another podcast on how back pain impacts men, I think quite differently to to how it impacts women, and we could get into that. But there was a lot of kinda guilt and shame around not being able to be the conditioned version of what I thought a man should be and a man in the house and all that kind of stuff.

Karim [00:20:45]:
So there's some interesting anecdotes around that, but it was, yeah, I scraped the bottle bottom of the barrel, and it wasn't until I was introduced to meditation as a means to manage pain that I I got any relief, really. And that's what started my mindfulness journey, you know, and and, you know, bit bit about where I am now with that. But bouncing back from that is probably the biggest, achievement, I think, of my life, you know, when I when I think about all the different challenges I faced, going from, yeah, being flat on the floor to to showing up in life again and being active again and being a father and a husband and a friend and a, you know, and a and a colleague and a boss and all of those things, That that I think was the biggest bounce back that I that I ever had, and I put that squarely down to mindfulness along with the those early experiences of of seeing how my mom had dealt with, you know, similar channels.

Simon Ursell [00:21:37]:
Well, and had to and had to be a a young carer for your mom. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's that's gonna build up some That is some serious resilience.

Karim [00:21:44]:
You're not gonna make me cry on this, but that that would get me going.

Simon Ursell [00:21:47]:
Yeah. Yeah. I can tell it's hard. But, I mean, this is some pretty serious stuff you've been through. But

Karim [00:21:55]:
It it is, but it's that mud, it's that shit that we talked about earlier. Had I not gone to had had I not experienced the back pain, I would never have discovered discover's the wrong word. I would never have uncovered my capacity for for mindfulness, and that has been the single biggest game changer in my life.

Simon Ursell [00:22:13]:
And then a 9 figure business going south, I mean, it's a shame and it's a issue, but

Karim [00:22:19]:
It does. But, you know, we've got our health and no one's been injured. No one's debilitated. You know? No one's immobile, so there's still a lot to be to be grateful for.

Simon Ursell [00:22:29]:
Yeah. It's quite a story, isn't it, Rusty?

Simon Ursell [00:22:32]:
I've got, three things in common with Karim. I have, we were both in Shanghai in 2002.

Karim [00:22:40]:
Wow.

Simon Ursell [00:22:41]:
More. My wife often tells me you might need to dial things back a little. And the other one is my mother has rheumatoid arthritis.

Karim [00:22:49]:
There you go.

Simon Ursell [00:22:50]:
So, I can understand some of that stuff. You def you maybe think about 2 things, and then I guess I've got a question. We maybe think about 3 things. 1 is showing up.

Simon Ursell [00:23:01]:
Mhmm.

Simon Ursell [00:23:01]:
Like, it's such an important role. The other one is, like, I don't think we've chatted on this pod too much about role models, but actually, I love that. Like, it's caught not taught. Mhmm. And then the third thing is, Amanda Visack does work in in coaching and we have fun and fun maps, and actually fun is often challenge. Fun is like the lows that you have on your way up the mountain. And then I just really interested in that. Again, I love your language around like, it taught me this, I learned this.

Simon Ursell [00:23:34]:
I found this out about myself. And that's, I think that's quite a hard mindset to have. Mhmm. To go, okay, have I learned about myself from this experience? What's life teaching me? And I guess is that is that something that came with the mindfulness you're doing? I'm just curious. Is that something you always had? Is there a moment of realization of of of this? I'm just curious because that is a really hard mindset to have.

Karim [00:24:04]:
Yeah. And it goes by many names. I was I mean, growth mindset is kind of a catchall for it, but, it's it's more than that. It's a really good question, Rusty. I I think I like to think that I was relatively self aware, you know, for as long as I can remember. I like to think that. But when I look at the, you know, decisions and behaviors and things before, you know, mindfulness kinda came in came into life and became a real a big part of my life, I think I was nowhere near as aware as I thought I was. And one of my favorite expressions is don't believe everything you think.

Karim [00:24:38]:
So I think that was a really good example of of maybe not, you know, not not buying into those thoughts that

Simon Ursell [00:24:43]:
I was. I'm I'm taking that.

Karim [00:24:44]:
You can have that one. Yeah. Thank you. I use it on my email sign off. It was a bumper sticker actually that a friend saw and and and, shared it with me. But I think inherent in the mindfulness practice is a looking, a deep looking, an observation of of patterns of mind and how it works and how your mind has a tendency to cling on to certain things and push away others and and and cause a lot of suffering in your life. So I do think that that observation, in a sustained way over a period of several years has helped me orient more towards whatever you'd like to call it, you know, growth mindset or or just that learning mode, that that I'm in. And there's still a long, long way to go.

Karim [00:25:26]:
I think the other thing that that that's helped me realize is that no matter how much you think you've uncovered or or realized, it's always the tip of the iceberg, you know, and it's just scratching the surface. And, you know, I love this expression that our idea of who we are is so much smaller than who we really are. And that's I heard that from I think it was Jon Kabat Zinn who who said that. He's a wonderful mindfulness teacher and author, and evangelist, really. But, yeah, it's given me glimpses of of who I really am and who I really could be. And then and then, of course, you've got something to kinda strive towards in a healthy way. Right? I use drive towards maybe is a is a better word. Strive, I think, has some some negative connotations.

Karim [00:26:07]:
But, yeah, so in a in a roundabout way, I think that's kinda answering

Simon Ursell [00:26:11]:
the question. Yeah. Well, it's a I mean, it's in it is amazing, isn't it? I mean, you've got you've got this incredible backstory where you've been through some pretty significant challenges led to mindfulness, led to, you know, creating a pretty remarkable person. People don't wanna go through those kinds of struggles in order to become amazing. It does sound, you know, no mud, no lotus. You know, you've gotta go through challenge to sort of become a better person. I mean, you gotta learn by doing difficult things. You know? What did you say? Fun is challenge, Rusty? Was that your

Karim [00:26:49]:
Challenge is often fun. Right? Fun is a key part of challenge.

Simon Ursell [00:26:54]:
Yeah. I'm under this act basically looks at what do people mean when they say the word fun, and it's lots of things. And often it's a challenge. It's that sense of feeling after accomplishing something that you didn't think was possible. It's the bounce back that you're describing. It's the

Simon Ursell [00:27:11]:
Yeah. It's a sense of higher purpose in your life, that kind of stuff, isn't it?

Karim [00:27:15]:
Well, it's as simple as you go and have a game of tennis with someone who's who's, you know, way below you in terms I mean, that's not a fun game to play, is it? Whereas you go and play someone who's better than you, those are the those are the most fun games. Those are the games that you relish because you actually are having to to something about mastery, I guess, and pushing yourself. I just wanna pick up on something you said, Simon, because you say you gotta go through challenge to to, you know, develop these kind of inner resources, but we all go through challenge whether we like it or not. That's a part of the human condition. I think the difference is are we turning toward challenge or are we running away from it or pushing it or or, you know, sweeping under the mat or suppressing it in some way? You know, Wim Hof says, you've got to go to the cold or the cold's gonna come to you. You know? And and that cold that, you know

Simon Ursell [00:27:58]:
Amazing accent. Yeah. Thank you.

Karim [00:28:00]:
Thank you. Karim. Good afternoon. Keith, the cold water is just a symbol to him for the shit, the challenge, the difficulty, the struggle, and he's right. If you don't approach the cold war and get into it, at some point, it's gonna come to you and you're not gonna be ready for it. And that's the crux of resilience. You've got to you gotta do the reps. Right? I mean, you can use, like, an the analogy of physical, training.

Karim [00:28:22]:
You go to the gym and do the reps, not so you look good at the gym, although that is there is a growing trend of people who go to the gym. There are a lot of mirrors. Mirrors. There's a lot of True.

Simon Ursell [00:28:32]:
Rusty, it I mean, how many mirrors are in your gym?

Karim [00:28:34]:
You're talking about his home gym?

Simon Ursell [00:28:35]:
I don't know. Have you got a home gym with mirrors in it? I don't. No.

Simon Ursell [00:28:39]:
No one wants to see me as a

Karim [00:28:41]:
It's been chat. Especially not him.

Simon Ursell [00:28:43]:
No. I I second that. I don't wanna see myself in it either. So but there we are.

Karim [00:28:47]:
It's like why why

Simon Ursell [00:28:47]:
I should walk towards that challenge?

Karim [00:28:49]:
Why do you go to the you go to the gym and you do those reps so that you can build your stamina, your strength, your flexibility so that outside of the gym when you're in life, living life, you're not gonna get injured easily. You're gonna be able to do the things you wanna do. And I think the same, you turn towards those challenges because that's where you're gonna learn. That's where you're gonna discover something. That's where you're gonna be tested. But I think our default setting, as humans and particularly in in the western world, is to avoid challenge and difficulty at all costs. Right? We're always looking for the quick fix. We're always looking for the headache, recurring headache, just keep popping the Advil rather than looking at what the reason for those headaches is and Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:29:26]:
You know?

Karim [00:29:26]:
So yeah. I'd I'd say that turning towards it is quite different from going through it.

Simon Ursell [00:29:31]:
Sure. Sure. So how how do we how do we create for for other people? So let's let's say I mean, a lot of people listen to this will be coaches, leaders. There'll be teachers, all sorts of people who are in roles where they're helping other people to try and be better. Mhmm. How do we create challenge in a way that's gonna work? Because it's quite it can be, you know, I think it was Gary Banford who was talk he's, he's an SBS trainer. Was an s he was training people to be in the special forces. He talks about stretch zone and red zone, and you don't wanna go in the red zone too much, and you wanna really stay in the stretch zone.

Simon Ursell [00:30:15]:
So how do we create challenge for people that helps them to become better? And how do we help them cope with walking towards or jumping into the cold water or whatever you wanna

Karim [00:30:27]:
frame it. Yeah. I think I'm not sure the first question creating challenge. I would I'd kind of I'd push back a bit on that and say there's no need to create challenge. Life's so full of them already. It's more it's that second it's that second part of the question, which is how do we equip people to turn towards those challenges and and and overcome them, learn from them, or not overcome them, but whether they overcome them or not, what, you know, what can they take from that from that process? And that I think is I can only speak for for myself here and, actually, I can speak for, you know, many of the people I've worked with in this area, but I think what a what mindfulness has has done for me is beyond the meditation practices is it's helped new attitudes towards life emerge. So we talk about kinda core attitudes that are inherent within mindfulness. So as you start to develop this this this resource that we all have, an innate capacity that we all have, the present moment, kind of awareness and for remembering to come back when our thoughts, you know, carry us away.

Karim [00:31:26]:
The original term actually for for mindfulness, the word sati, which was trans translated as mindfulness. Mindfulness was a word plucked out of the Bible that the translator at the time thought this captures this captures it well. So already in choosing that word, it has the word mind in it, so it kind of loses the the essence of of the meaning. Sati actually means to remember or to know. Right? So it's that capacity we have to remember to come back from our mental time traveling to know what our true nature is. And it's that constant reminder, you know, that we can give ourselves. And the more reps we do, the more that starts to happen, happen naturally. But these attitudes that you know, once you start cultivating mindfulness, the attitude start to emerge naturally.

Karim [00:32:06]:
They come to the fore, and then the more the so they help they come out naturally from cultivating mindfulness, and the more that we embody these attitudes, the the more they kind of nourish the mindfulness practice itself. So it's this lovely virtuous kind of circle here. And it's attitudes like patience, like non striving, like beginner's mind, critical one. Beginner's mind so I I I to what you're saying earlier, Rusty, growth mindset, I I much prefer beginner's mind as a as a term, which is a zen zen term, and it's about approaching every situation with a fresh perspective, not bringing the, you know, those assumptions and biases to the to the table. And, the way the zen practitioners think of it is as you become better at a certain craft, that's when beginner's mind becomes more and more important. So the more expert you become at something, the more important it is to bring a a sense of beginner's mind to it. And there's a lovely expression which is in the mind of the expert, there are few possibilities, but in the beginner's mind, there are infinite possibilities. Because the mind of the expert is telling you, I've been here.

Karim [00:33:09]:
I've seen you know, been been been there, seen that, got the t shirt kind of thing, and that voice is always there in your head. I've been in a meeting like this before. I've met a person like this before. And we bring all of that to those into those spaces, and we don't meet people where they're at. You know? We forget that we're all dynamic processes. We're not these fixed, you know, these fixed states. We're changing moment to moment, and we should be meeting people with that freshness too and giving them a and it happens so I'm you know, I talk a good game, but when it comes to the kids, we're all fathers here. Right? That's the real test.

Karim [00:33:41]:
That's the real test because I find myself judging, you know, every not not just my kids, my wife too, judging them on what's what's happened in the past, judging them on on behavior from yesterday or last week, and and almost preempting, the fact that they're gonna do that again. You know? But then, Rebecca, again, my my guru, will remind me, hey. Beginner's mind. You know? Just because they did that last week doesn't mean they're gonna do it. Again, you know, meet meet them fresh. So, yeah, I think those attitudes really help us in having the confidence to turn towards challenge and then the ability to to navigate those challenges. And as I say, that might not mean overcoming them necessarily. There's different ways to overcome challenges, and it might just not be the conventional success that we think we should have.

Karim [00:34:24]:
Yeah. I've

Simon Ursell [00:34:25]:
got a lot of

Simon Ursell [00:34:26]:
new phrases.

Karim [00:34:27]:
I just

Simon Ursell [00:34:28]:
you know, you got a lot of you got a lot of good quotes. You got a lot of quotes

Karim [00:34:32]:
I have.

Simon Ursell [00:34:32]:
You think. Well, I thought you were gonna get Ted Lasso and get and talk curious, not judgmental. I've had a really, like, interesting day today. So this morning I stayed in a hotel and had breakfast. And there was 3 guys, with Hi Viz jackets on, who sat next to me. And I heard one guy say to another, this guy's a mindfulness coach. Is that a made up job? I bet he's made that job up. How does that help sports people? So that was one verse.

Simon Ursell [00:35:07]:
That was one part of my day. And I've just been sat with some kids in the library in year 4, 5, 6, and 7, and they've been talking about they've got the beginner's mind. Rusty, how can I reframe nerves? How can I get myself back in the moment when when I feel myself getting frustrated? What could I do? Okay. Well, what things fine. What are the solutions do other people have? And it's just, as you said, like, I often say that, like, I'm I'm okay at coaching. I'm terrible at coaching myself. Father. Terrible.

Simon Ursell [00:35:38]:
So, like, how we can that's why I was so interested in that minds you know? Look, I think it's a great mindset to have, isn't it? What did I learn about myself from this hardship? I think it's if we if we can win more than we can lose, it's a helpful thing to do. I think as we get older, it becomes harder sometimes Yeah. To to maintain that kind of

Simon Ursell [00:36:00]:
Shouldn't we be trying to

Simon Ursell [00:36:01]:
Yeah. I'm just

Simon Ursell [00:36:02]:
Shouldn't we be trying to to to lose carry on losing? Isn't that kind of a growth mindset to keep walking towards things that you're unlikely to win at? I mean, I don't know if that's if it's that that helpful, but, I mean, if you can do that, you're gonna you're gonna get better and better on you. If you're walking towards challenges, it's like playing the tennis pro rather than playing the tennis beginner. You know? It's more fun, and you're gonna learn more by by losing, aren't you?

Karim [00:36:30]:
Yeah. That's an interesting I mean, we talk when when teaching mindfulness, talk a lot about hard edges and soft edges. Right? And it's red zone stretch zone, similar kind of thing. And and it's between so usually, the limit for for most of us is our soft edges because when we come up against the soft edges, it's uncomfortable. And that could be in any different this could be a physical setting. It could be in a relationship setting. It could be, you know, what whatever whatever arena of life. So we tend to never go beyond the soft edge thinking that's our limit, but it's actually between the soft and hard edge.

Karim [00:37:01]:
That's where discovery takes place. That's where growth takes place. That's where learning really happens. But in order to do that, you've got to be comfortable with the uncomfortable. And I know like I hit in the sporting world, you hear this a lot. Right? Getting be being comfortable, really uncomfortable, putting your head in the dark place in many different ways to to to say it. But if you never cross that threshold and go into that stretch zone, you don't stand a jump. Then when the real proverbial shit hits the fan and you don't have a choice and you haven't built up that that kind of wealth of experience and done the reps and and, you know, been into that stretch zone, gone past the soft edge, that's when that really comes to the fore.

Karim [00:37:40]:
And I think that's what helped me in in some of these cases is I'd repeated, not often unintentionally, but I ended up in that zone, you know, and found myself there. And I think I'm looking back and even when I was telling that story, I'm realizing just how much of my life I've maybe spent in that zone, And I think that's that's where real resilience is kind of born, isn't it? But I think you'll be very careful about, like, setting yourself up for for the failure. I think you can set yourself up for the stretch, but we equally tell people, you've gotta go beyond that soft edge, but you've gotta respect the hard edge. Really respect the hard edge because that's where you can do yourself damage, you know, lasting damage, physical, mental, emotional damage. Yeah. Going too

Simon Ursell [00:38:18]:
going too far.

Karim [00:38:19]:
Going too far. And and I would then say, I know it gets a bit boring, but mindfulness is a wonderful way to make you aware of the soft and the hard edges, where they're located, and how to respect them, and how to make sure you can go beyond one, but, you know, respect the other.

Simon Ursell [00:38:33]:
Yeah. What's really jumping out to me is something you said right at the start, which is, you know, when you were talking about, your business failing and you turned to gratitude. Is that is that something about being gratitude for the tough times you've gone through, and actually because you've learned, you're kind of there's almost a gratefulness for having gone through that. Is it all is or is or am I being a little bit trite here? Because I'm not sure I feel much gratitude to some of the challenges I've had, if I'm honest Yeah. Even though I've learned from them.

Karim [00:39:07]:
It's it's so it's you've learned from them, and that gratitude for what you've learned, I think, can also be translated into grad you would not you would not have learned. You would not have achieved some of the things you've you'd achieved. So I don't think it's I think it's gratitude. It's 2020 hindsight. That's the other thing. Right? I mean, it's really easy to look back 3, 6 months or years later and say, man, had that not have happened, I wouldn't have met my wife, for example, or if that not have happened, I wouldn't have met this got this opportunity to do this this incredible work that I do today. So in hindsight, it's really easy. I think the challenge comes in the moment.

Karim [00:39:40]:
Trusting trusting that how as hard as this is, just like all the other other challenges that come before it, there is going to be some fruit that is born of this. There is gonna be some silver lining to this, and then hold. So you gotta have a bit of faith. Right? I think you gotta have a bit of trust in the fact that when you when the dust settles and the water is clear again, you will be able to see what the benefit of that was to you. And and that's, I think, is bit makes it a bit easier to be grateful. Yeah. Sure.

Simon Ursell [00:40:06]:
What do you reckon in the sports world then, Rusty? Because this again, this is a kind of a lot of this stuff gets cliched to death in the sports world, and I don't think a lot of coaches, people in the sports world fully understand some of the the real, wisdom behind the no mud, no lotus sort of approach. I don't know where I don't know how to describe it. I'm not putting very I'm not putting this very well, but, which is which is pretty much summing up my point. It's just having a deep understanding of yourself and really understanding what is where the hard and soft edges are, really working on it. I mean, I'm trying, but I know I realize how far away I am. But is is the sports world is the sports world looking at this stuff, or do you think they're not really?

Simon Ursell [00:40:54]:
Look, I've I I wrote down the foot as soon as you start speaking, then cutting my I wrote down the game, due to your training. So I think England's an interesting one at the moment, isn't it? We haven't scored a point in the last quarter of our last four games of rugby. And then when you spoke about walking towards something, I think there's some language around like, I don't want the shirts to weigh heavy on people.

Karim [00:41:18]:
I know Steve's been saying that a lot, hasn't he? Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:41:22]:
Yeah. I'm not sure it's that helpful. I don't think I'm walking towards a challenge with that. And then, I guess, I was thinking a bit around Mustafa stuff, and obviously, Simon will get excited now. But I guess what you're talking about is situations of high challenge, and then I guess I'm curious as to where your high support came from. It sounds like you are becoming more able to be better at doing it in the moment. So timing of this, you probably got closer to the moment of being able to take the learnings from this. Previously, you know, might have started with it a year down the line.

Simon Ursell [00:41:57]:
I worked out. God, there were some learnings there. Now I'm possibly more able to, maybe even pre mortimate, go. I think the best sports teams are doing this. They are, like, in the moment, off the pitch. Cool. What do we learn about ourselves? Cool. We we reset.

Simon Ursell [00:42:14]:
We go again tomorrow. I'm just curious about those two things, really, from your point of view. Like, the timing of it, like, what do you think has helped you there? But also, like, has there been people who've supported you? Has there been, like or has this been this kind of individual journey that you've gone on?

Karim [00:42:31]:
Let me take the first the the first question first because it the answer's there. The second one, I think, is still percolating, so let that percolate in in the in the background. But the timing thing I I think you're right. I think that as as I continue to develop this this aspect of my life and as I continue to to practice regularly and now I'm teaching, so there's actually before it was, I had to it was all self motivation, right, to get up and practice in the morning or to to do a certain retreat or something like that, but now it's a part of my it's a part of being, you know, a registered mindfulness teacher. There are certain good practice guidelines and CPD esque stuff that that needs to be done, so it's no longer a choice. Thankfully, it's still something I I want to do and and not something I feel forced to. But I think the more I've had that regular practice, the closer to the present moment I I kind of come. So what you said really resonated there, whereas years ago, when stuff was happening, I was caught in thoughts.

Karim [00:43:32]:
I was caught in a narrative about why aren't things the way they used to be, why are they so crap right now, or or how terrible they're gonna be in the future catastrophizing. I think with practice and over time, there's less of that catastrophizing. There's less of that being lost in mental time travel or at least for shorter periods of time. So when you're in the present moment and you're seeing it a little bit clearer and it's not clouded by that narrative and all those thoughts about past, present, you know, fantasy past, future, and fantasy about the present, It it naturally makes it a lot easier to navigate that that challenge because you're there. You're in it. Yeah. There isn't the shroud of fog that is kind of coloring your perspective on the situation, and the thoughts that come along with that. So I think that's been really, really helpful, and I'd love to actually speak to people who've been meditating for many years on that point because I think it's a really interesting one.

Karim [00:44:21]:
As you learn to spend more time, inhabit the present moment, do you do you start to see the silver lining in the in the crap moments a little bit earlier? And I think for me, I think that's the case. So thank you for that. That's really that's been really, really insightful. The second question, for sure, it hasn't been an individual journey. I mean, there's been loads of people involved. I'm not somebody who could just name, you know, 5 mentors to you, but there's been countless people involved. And and some of those people I mean, I think of the dishwashers, right, at the restaurant company back in the day, people that had come into Shanghai from rural China, many of whom had not even finished primary school, and to see the way that they worked and the approach they took to work and to spend time with I used to love hanging out in in the back with the dishwashers, and I learned very quickly, because I didn't speak much Chinese when I when I started this restaurant journey, that the way to earn respect when I couldn't communicate with them on their level was to be with them, you know, on on their level. And I think I learned so much from from them, you know, and it really helps to put thing put things into perspective when

Simon Ursell [00:45:23]:
you What did you learn?

Karim [00:45:26]:
I I learned to be content with with what I've got, you know, in that moment. And, I learned the the benefits of giving a 100% to whatever you're doing, whether it's stocking shelves, washing dishes, or or doing, I don't know, 5 year strategies for big companies. Right? You you've got to apply yourself to that, in order to get that sense of fulfillment and contentment. I think very often when we're not applying ourselves, that's what leaves that little hole, that little sense of being unfulfilled. You know, it's not necessarily the work you are doing. It's actually how much effort you are putting to it. And, of course, chicken and egg. Right? If you love the work, you're gonna apply yourself more.

Karim [00:46:00]:
But I think that especially in the early days of your career, whatever you're not gonna get the dream job, your 1st job, second job, 3rd job, maybe even your 4th or 5th job. So apply yourself, give it your all, and, in my experience, yeah, but sense of fulfillment and contentment come. And see see so seeing the dish now you've really opened up some memories now. I'm back in the dishwashing room with the guys. Yeah. Nice. Nice.

Simon Ursell [00:46:23]:
That's a good lesson for our kids there, Rusty.

Simon Ursell [00:46:26]:
Yeah. I was the other thing I was thinking about was the fog, and then I'm thinking about sport. Again, I don't know how, like, widely your situation was played out, but sport is played out in front of lots of people who are making judgments. Probably more than is healthy for our brain. And so that fog just reminded me, and I'll I'll share this story briefly with you, and I'm curious as to where it takes you. I just always went for dinner with a guy, the Tongan Tiger, plays for the San Francisco 40 niners, and he got a mentor at 17. I said, what's the one reason you made it? And he went, because I got a mentor at 17. He demanded I did 4 things before he would mentor me.

Simon Ursell [00:47:09]:
Number 1, kind of full social media. That was clear to the fog. Number 2, every time I go to a lesson or a lecture, meet someone new. Number 3, feed the homeless every week.

Karim [00:47:23]:
Mhmm.

Simon Ursell [00:47:23]:
And number 4, give me a list of the 11 pea it was of the people that have helped you get to where you are now in life. It was 11 people and their phone numbers. I want you to check-in with them every month for the rest of your life. I'll have their names and numbers just in case you don't. But that kind of gratitude, like the perspective around homelessness, the kind of getting rid of the fog around socials. I do think it's all this stuff is, like, easier said than done.

Karim [00:47:57]:
It is easier said than done, but at the same time, it's all doable, isn't it? I mean, that's it's easier said than done, but I think that, you know, that can be a kind of a a cop out sometimes

Simon Ursell [00:48:09]:
because I mean, this it just sounds like was there some bits that you were like So there's 4 for me, really clear intentions that will will clear the fog, that will help you understand what's important to you. I'm just, you know

Karim [00:48:24]:
I love

Simon Ursell [00:48:24]:
Was there, like, 2 or 3

Karim [00:48:25]:
Well, I love those 4. Actually. I love those 4.

Simon Ursell [00:48:28]:
Isn't it?

Karim [00:48:28]:
Of all

Simon Ursell [00:48:29]:
that, isn't it? I mean, you you take those and take and then maybe add yours. I mean, it's a it's a lovely place to start.

Karim [00:48:35]:
But it's they're they're like 4 buckets, aren't they? The first one is, yeah, clear the fog, block out the noise, and, you know, 2,000 I'm I'm happy say the only social media I I I'm on is LinkedIn, which can be painful sometimes because it is just kinda like a a white collar Facebook, but it's, and you see it you see it kinda getting worse and worse. But the the all the other I'm not on any of the other social medias. I I did have a Facebook account until about 10 years ago, and I how much I should say on here? I visited somewhere where I had to delete my Facebook account before I went. Let's just let's leave it at that. And I and I never got and I never and I never got back on it, which was wonderful. Wonderful. And and it just meant I never got on to Instagram or Twitter or any of any of these things. So I I that resonates.

Karim [00:49:20]:
Clear the fog, and there's many different ways to clear the fog. The second one was, I think, to me, what I heard was connection. Right? Going and meeting somebody new wherever you go is connection. I mean, we thrive with social animals. We need that connection. So shuttering yourself up is is not gonna help you at all. And then as you said, the third one about third one was was that calling the

Simon Ursell [00:49:42]:
Feeder handlers. Feeder.

Karim [00:49:43]:
Feeder so perspective? Service. So to me, that's service. Right? And we we were talking a bit about this earlier, volunteering Yeah. What you guys do here at Times Grange.

Simon Ursell [00:49:51]:
The dishwashers.

Karim [00:49:52]:
Yeah. But it's it's going out and helping others, especially when you're not feeling too good. I mean, give it a try, people. Next time you're feeling like crap, go and find someone who's doing worse off than you and help them in the smallest possible way you can, you know, the smallest possible way. And and just just do it as an experiment and see what that does for you. It's incredible, the power of service. And, Rebecca, again, my wife, our our inspiration, our kind of guide in this respect. I mean, she devotes so much of her time to service, and she models that for the for the kids.

Karim [00:50:25]:
And it's really beautiful to see them then wanna take up that mantle and serve others. So I think service is is is incredible. And then gratitude was the last one, wasn't it? It's about those identifying those people who have supported you and making sure you ex you know, gratitude needs to be expressed in some shape, way, or form. It can't just remain inward. I mean, it's nice to think to yourself at the end of the day, what what am I grateful for? And we do this gratitude practice with with the girls every evening. We all share 3 things we're grateful for. But acting on that gratitude then, if if if a teacher keeps coming up in gratitude price, I'm really grateful for, you know, miss miss Dodds has taught us today, then it's okay. You you know, you've you've mentioned you're grateful for miss Dodds a couple times this week.

Karim [00:51:04]:
Should we do something for her? Only make her, you know, make her a nice card or so turning that gratitude into action. It's like compassion is empathy in action. Empathy is nice, but if it remains this inner thing of, yeah, I feel what you feel. That's terrible. You know? Compassion is when you actually act on that empathy. And, likewise, I think gratitude needs to be put into action for you to really, yeah, feel the effect and see the effects in in the world. So I love those 4. I'm not sure if I have anything to add to.

Karim [00:51:32]:
I think I just resonate really deeply with all 4 of them, but I'd say that it is like, you know, how you how that connection manifests, how the perspective and the service manifests, how the gratitude matter may be different for different people. But I think as as a kind of rule of 4, it's beautiful, man. Clear the fog, connect with other people, serve, and get some perspective, and be grateful. You can do a lot worse than living by those 4 those 4 maxims. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:51:59]:
And if you do you feel like you're constantly, like, thinking like a I guess, I'm gonna use the word scientist, but it might not be a scientist. But you're always experimenting with various ways of, getting the best out of yourself, remaining in the moment, being grateful. Like, is it a constant kind of, yeah, lifelong experiments? Some you used to do some stuff, and it doesn't work for you as well. Now you've found something else that because because sometimes I think people might wanna go, okay. Just give me the 2 or 3 rules, and will that help me?

Karim [00:52:35]:
Yeah. The the meditation is the lab for me for sure. The the the 20 to 60 minutes depending on day of the week and resources and what the night before was like. But that 20 to 60 minutes a day of of of sitting on my own or lying down or standing up, whatever it might be, but of being on my own, practicing, whether it be a silent practice or or listening to someone else's guidance, that's the lab. That is where I experiment. But it's it's a it's it's very difficult to put into words because it's this it's passive and yet it's really active. We could this is where we get start to get really deep about the, like, the dualism of it all. Right? Because it's both passive in terms of sitting back and observing the mind at play and seeing where it goes and being really intrigued by that and sometimes, you know, laughing out loud at the places it goes and other times being really, you know, shit scared at the places it goes.

Karim [00:53:25]:
And, so seeing where the mind goes and then kind of playing with dropping in, being a bit more intentional about dropping in certain thoughts or going down certain lines of of inquiry, that's where the experimentation happens. How that translates off the cushion, I think, is really vital. So that's the commitment that needs to happen. I mean, first, there's a commitment to practice on a regular basis, then there's the commitment to take some of those lessons into the world and apply them because, you know, a very kind of fundamental aspect, I think, of this practice is that if it's not being translated into you living your life differently, relating to yourself, to other people, to the world, with a different orientation, then it's not worth its salt. I mean, why why do it? Why spend the time? It must be useful. Right? It must be fruitful in some way. And I so so, yeah, I think that that's what keeps me honest. With the periods where my practice drops off, I definitely feel a bit duller.

Karim [00:54:21]:
I feel like I'm not bringing things into my life and I can easily go backwards, you know, it can be a 1 step forward, 2 step backwards kind of thing, but in those periods where the practice is being kept pretty consistent, I'm yeah, I think I'm I'm able to at least try, often fail, but at least try new things. You know, I might even might just pop into your head about, oh, you know, you might be having a challenging communication with someone at that time. And during the meditation, something just pops into the head of, you know, why don't you try try framing it this way? And then you wanna cling on to that thought. You wanna end the practice. You wanna write it down. You wanna send the message right then, but then then there comes a bit of trust, another one of the core attitudes. Trust that let's stay in the moment. Let's continue this practice.

Karim [00:55:01]:
And if that was something that was really useful, it's going to be there afterwards, and it inevitably is. I don't think I've ever had a realization in a meditation practice that I've lost, which is counter to what a lot of people say around creativity because they say you gotta write it down right away. But that, I think, is different. When you're having ideas in your day to day, I think it's quite different to what's happening in that more controlled environment where you are very kind of focused, you know, on on on keeping the main thing the main thing. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:55:28]:
Well, yeah, I mean, we haven't really plugged, because you are what what you're doing now is working at Mindful Peak Performance with Luke Doherty, Mia Chambers.

Karim [00:55:37]:
Shout out to Luke and Mia?

Simon Ursell [00:55:39]:
Yep. Shout out to Luke and Mia. Unbelievably brilliant people. So they're they're working with Tyler Grange quite a bit. Yep. Doing a lot of work with our guys on mindfulness. And a lot of what you say really resonates, frankly. I mean, I worked with Mia the last practice I did with Mia.

Simon Ursell [00:55:54]:
So I I we we I spend an hour with Mia every month, and she'd we do guided meditations, talk a bit about some stuff, and, Faith help. I just find it incredibly helpful. But last time I did the practice, I was in pieces. I fell apart. I was crying. I was all over the place because I went to some pretty difficult places, but it was, but it was so wonderful. I think that's one of the things that I think, people try and avoid, is is walking towards these challenging things. It was so wonderful to allow that to be something I I experienced rather than something that's there, sat within me that I don't really wanna acknowledge because it's too hard to talk about and too hard to to be with.

Simon Ursell [00:56:34]:
Mhmm. And that then manifests in very unhealthy ways where the

Karim [00:56:37]:
culture does. Consciously. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:56:39]:
It sure does. And, one of the things I think, you know, working with somebody as incredible as Mia has really helped me is is just being so much happier because you can just access a lot of this sort of challenge, in a much more bouncy way. Mhmm. I just don't I just don't get as fazed about stuff as I used to because of it. I mean, a 100% changed my life. And you know what? I I know, shout out to John Berry. I know it's changed his life, where he works with Luke, Julian Arthur. I know it's changed his life.

Simon Ursell [00:57:15]:
Mhmm. And when I say change their life, it's not a try oh, changed my life and I'm a bit different. Fundamentally changed how they are and how they behave.

Karim [00:57:23]:
And now everyone that works at Tyler Grange is benefiting from those changes because you got I mean, I I'm only getting to know the organization more recently, but

Simon Ursell [00:57:30]:
Yeah.

Karim [00:57:30]:
What you've created here is is is very odd for for a successful business. There's not many businesses around that have this kind of this energy and this vibe flowing around. I think it it it does start at the top. So, yeah, good to see you. And I

Simon Ursell [00:57:43]:
think, and I think in terms of mindfulness and I mean, I don't like the word mindfulness, by the way. It was interesting in talking about it, which is plucked out of the bible. That kinda because I think it's and plus it's got associations now. I mean, you know, it's it's it's got some quite sort of niche associations, isn't it?

Karim [00:58:00]:
Yeah. I mean, it's been flogged to death, and and it's got you know, depending on who you're talking to, it's woo woo or it's just airy fairy or it's hippie. So It's woke. It's it's woke. Very

Simon Ursell [00:58:09]:
bad connotation. One of the things that attracted me to MPP and and

Karim [00:58:09]:
and why Luke and I, it kinda got and and why Luke and I, it kinda got on so well off the bat is I think we share this belief that you you've got to meet people where they're at. If you come in and you tell people, hey. Sit down for 30 minutes and start meditating in a lotus position. You know, most people out there are going to with the exception of a few are gonna tell you to to piss off. But if you come in and you help people to contextualize it in in in their own lives, and you help them to realize that they may not call it mindfulness, They may have a real aversion even to the word mindfulness, but they are they are already doing this. There are already pockets in their lives where they are in that kind of flow state, for lack of a better term. Right? They are present. They're absorbed.

Karim [00:58:52]:
There's clarity of thought. They're making better decisions. And when you start there with people, and for some people, it's making a cup of tea in the morning or, you know, at the coffee machine. For others, it's walking the dog in the forest. For others, it's, you know, being out on the pitch or the court, whatever it might be. But that's your starting point. So rather than trying to impose this idea of of what mindfulness is on people, you find out where they at with it right now. Okay.

Karim [00:59:15]:
You've got this wonderful little pocket of flow in your life. Would you like more of that? 100% of people say yes. Nobody said no. I wouldn't like more. I wouldn't like to feel that way more. Of course, I'd love to feel the the same way I feel when I'm walking through the forest when I'm at my job or I'm in, you know, having tense conversation with with with loved ones or or colleagues or whatever. And then from there, you can start to nourish that seed. It germinates, and those pockets start to get bigger and bigger and bigger.

Karim [00:59:40]:
And, yeah, I mean, look, they're never gonna it's never gonna be a whole life. We're humans. Being human is really, really tricky, but the more you can nourish and water those seeds, those pockets already exist. You're already doing it. Everyone's already practicing mindfulness. You know? Yeah. It may just be glimpses.

Simon Ursell [00:59:55]:
I hear that. Yeah. I mean, you know, long way off being

Simon Ursell [00:59:58]:
a very mindful

Simon Ursell [00:59:59]:
person, but So am I, man. We're all working on it.

Karim [01:00:02]:
Just love it.

Simon Ursell [01:00:03]:
It's one of the best one of the best things I do every month. Plus, isn't it? You can't just download an app and do some, you know, get get on Apple mindfulness and do a bit of that. I mean, yeah, that's the it's nice. But

Karim [01:00:16]:
It's one of the few things in life that there aren't shortcuts No. To. And then, you know, unfortunately, we live in an age that increasingly is all about shortcuts and hacks.

Simon Ursell [01:00:25]:
Yeah. But we can go back to what you were talking about before about walking towards it and it's, you know, we don't, you know, we don't want a shortcut. The shortcut's not helping you. You know, the the the whole point is it's it's not easy. So, it's worth doing, isn't it? And, you know, if if you're interested in high performance and being better and all those kinds of things, Working on mindfulness and, working on yourself, it's a mental gym after all, is is only gonna make you better. Yeah. What what do you reckon, Rusty? I mean, I do you, do you practice mindfulness much? Do you do you reckon?

Simon Ursell [01:01:02]:
I'm in flow a lot. Mhmm. Yeah. I'm watching, like again, I remember asking Kirk, who's still in the pod at Google, like, what does mindfulness mean to you? And he said, watching Adi for his nonsense.

Karim [01:01:14]:
That's true.

Simon Ursell [01:01:15]:
It's different from different from people, isn't it? I would have some stuff that I do in my life that would definitely mean that I feel like I'm in flow. Actually, way more than I was when I was a rugby player, which is the sad thing. So I would have loved to have way more flow experiences as a player. But yeah. And I think sometimes my wife can be frustrated by how able I am to get back in the moment when when there's tough times. I don't think I've I think I've become way more intentional about it. I'm way more thinking like a scientist, as you know. Try a new experiment every month and see whether it lasts, and whether it lands, and whether it helps me be be the best I can be.

Simon Ursell [01:01:59]:
And some stuff doesn't, some stuff doesn't. So I'm always I guess I'm just a that's why I was curious about the experiment. I just don't think there's there's a 5 step process to doing this Yeah. To sell.

Karim [01:02:10]:
And there's no endpoint. There's no endpoint either. Right? I mean, this is this is a this is, yeah, this is a a lifelong short a lifelong journey. It's interesting you say that you have the flow state more now than when you were playing. Remember one of the first first things I did with Luke is go and work with some academy players at a Premier League club that shall not be named. And we did this lovely flow state exercise that that we do, and we do this with in the sports world, but we also do in the corporate world. We just ask people to close their eyes and and bring to mind a time, a situation, an occasion when they felt present, when they felt content, when they felt happy, when they felt in the flow. And then afterwards, we asked people to share if they're open to what what was the, you know, the time or the activity that they kinda went back to.

Karim [01:02:57]:
It was really it was really interesting and a bit sad to hear these kids who are probably 17, 18, most of them were talking about before football got serious. It was when I was kicking around in the garden, I was at the park, I was doing this, and then all of a sudden, the the flow got sucked out of it. At a time when the flow should be even more, you know, featuring even more. You're you're taking things in the next level. You're you're pursuing a professional, you know, career in this sport.

Simon Ursell [01:03:26]:
Coaches are mechanical, aren't they? They're they're they're obsessed with the mechanical.

Karim [01:03:30]:
Yeah. I mean, it's but but that's why I I feel there's a there's is you know? And there's some teams and individual people in the sports world who I think are doing this quite well, but the majority of them, yeah, it's I just think it could I think that the sports world could really benefit from being from really confronting this, you know, head on and doing so with young people, like, you know, the age that you're you said you're working with today, Rusty, who are so we we underestimate them so severely. Right? I mean, I think as a society, we just say teenagers are the you know, they're teenagers. They're good for nothing.

Simon Ursell [01:04:04]:
Oh, and use them in sport. Yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, we had Canum on the Canum came on the on the pod talking about esports. I mean, that's an industry that could deal with a bit of, attention or mindfulness.

Karim [01:04:18]:
Chewing them up and spitting them out?

Simon Ursell [01:04:19]:
Well, they kinda do, I think, then. They are still I mean I mean, they're I mean, he he doesn't. He's working really hard to not do that.

Simon Ursell [01:04:25]:
Some people as coaches some coaches that could be bad when it I was at this Premier League, Academy of the Year's Day and, like, as the kids left, they wrote down one word to describe that session.

Simon Ursell [01:04:36]:
Mhmm.

Simon Ursell [01:04:36]:
It was a great session. 1 kid, 12 year old kid wrote down nostalgia. And now the coach said, what do you what do you mean by nostalgic? He said, it reminded me of when I used to be in non league football.

Karim [01:04:48]:
Yeah. 12? At 12, he's already feeling nostalgic.

Simon Ursell [01:04:53]:
Hey. That makes you sad.

Simon Ursell [01:04:54]:
That's one of the coaches. That's called that there's a coach there that's creating that situation for that player because

Simon Ursell [01:05:01]:
Yeah. But it's so rare, though, buddy. So rare that he writes down nostalgia. I mean, gosh. Depressing. Man.

Simon Ursell [01:05:08]:
It just then eventually comes a job.

Karim [01:05:11]:
Like, what if it was flipped around and what if the, you know, one of the the the key, KPIs of coaches was maintaining that sense of flow that the kids have to such a higher degree before they enter into these programs and systems, you know, and actually That would be lovely,

Simon Ursell [01:05:28]:
but it's corrupted by money, isn't it? They're making money, and they're they're they're chasing the quickest route to success and results to pay to get more sponsors

Karim [01:05:38]:
and pay

Simon Ursell [01:05:38]:
the bills, aren't they? I mean, that's the money corrupting it, isn't it? Yeah. It's a game.

Simon Ursell [01:05:42]:
I'm I'm lucky. I mean, I will fight the I mean, I I get to work with lots of coaches that are that lots of people are in flow with those coaches.

Karim [01:05:50]:
Yeah. So it is

Simon Ursell [01:05:50]:
I don't think that every the majority, but I do get to work in some Well,

Karim [01:05:55]:
that's nice. But That's good. And do do you think, Rusty, that there's a increasing kinda interest in in this aspect of the game, let's say, when it comes to, you know, mental call it what you want. Mental fitness is a term we use sometimes, building the mental muscle mass, training the mind, whatever it might be. Is there more is there more emphasis on that?

Simon Ursell [01:06:15]:
Yeah. Look. It's it's varied, isn't it? It depends upon your resources. It depends upon the skill of the coach. Sometimes it's triage for individuals versus actually it's environment and it's, you know, it's psychologists working through coaches. But I I think it's very varied. It's like coach development's even further behind it. So, you know, eventually, they might become normal things.

Karim [01:06:42]:
Yeah. There was the you remember the Netflix show, tennis 1? What's the tennis 1? Full Swing was the golf one. Breakpoint was the tennis series. Really really good docuseries on Netflix. There's 2 seasons on it. It follows the top tennis players, post the kind of Djokovic, Federer, Nadal era. And there's about 8 or 9 of them that are followed in the 1st season, And they're all kind of top 10, top 20 players. And it's really interesting that only one of the and and tennis is a very lonely sport, and I actually find it really incredible that these men and women go out on those courts for sometimes 4 or 5 hours, and they're not allowed to interact with their coach.

Karim [01:07:19]:
It's the only sport where that where that happens really. In fact, they'd be penalized for interacting with their coach. Well, you know, golfer, you've got your caddy with you. You've got you've got that support. So tennis, I think the support is is not what it what it could be. But what was really interesting is the one player out of everyone followed in that first season, the one player that had the mental side of the game, kind of in her in her inner circle. She had a mental fitness coach, a a psychologist with her who's doing a lot of mindfulness and and mental fitness work happened just happened to be Swiatek, the number one at the time. And yet all the others are meanwhile kind of falling apart under the pressure and the stress and and suffering serious mental health challenge.

Karim [01:07:59]:
So I was just shocked. You know? This is top of the game, 2023, and only one out of all these players that they followed actually had this piece of the this piece of the puzzle.

Simon Ursell [01:08:08]:
Well, my my kind of bias is that in sport, there's quite a lot of attention paid to mental fitness. Is is that not the case? I mean, I know MPP works in you work in sort of quite high level, sport as well as high level business. In fact, MPP as well. Something I keep meaning to say, and I'm gonna say it now even though I'm jumping around. The MPP, one of its main aims in life is to help young carers, using a thing called boxing and mindfulness, then you say, is that something I mean, obviously, you're a young carer. So Yeah. I mean, that massively appealing to you.

Karim [01:08:43]:
Yeah. Res I mean, there was lots of things that I love rugby. I'm like a super fan. Yeah. So Luke's rugby background was appealing to me to begin with. It was actually I'm a trustee at a charity, and and the founder of that charity had been a judge on the, on an award that Luke won for the boxing and mindfulness initiative. And it was her actually that said to me, you should really connect with Luke. You know, you love rugby.

Karim [01:09:04]:
You're a mindfulness teacher. He's doing some great work. So we had this we actually did a podcast together. I invited him to to my sporadic podcast, and we had a great chat. But all of those things resonated with me, you know, the from from the sporting side of things. I've worked the last 15 years in in leadership learning and and organizational development. So the the you know, bringing this and one of the things I'd seen missing in that space was there's a lot of focus on the outer game, but not much on the inner game. Right? So how can we change the environment around us? How can we tweak this business model? How can we change strategy, etcetera? But, actually, if you don't do the inner work, then that stuff tends not to not to be very sustainable.

Karim [01:09:41]:
So all of these things attracted me to to to what to to, you know, what Luke and MPP were doing. But the BAM project and it's not just young carers. It started with young carers. So using, yeah, using mindfulness as an as a kind of a or using boxing as an access point for people to to get into mindfulness too really successfully, but has since been been trialed with all kinds of marginalized communities who otherwise would not be able to access these resources from the elderly to ethnic minority groups to LGBTQ plus groups, lots of neurodiverse groups of people. And with each and every one of those groups, it has landed really, really well. Combining the physical with the with the mental, bringing little short mindfulness practices before a physical workout, after the physical workout to help you kinda warm down, really, yeah, opens people up to what's what's possible, when they are embodied and and and present. So, yeah, love Bam. Big shout out to Bam.

Simon Ursell [01:10:36]:
So so who's getting it right then? Do you think sport, business? I mean, nobody obvious I'd suggest. But

Karim [01:10:42]:
Well, no one's getting it right or we would we'd be out of a job, wouldn't we? And, like, Rusty too probably to to some degree. So I think, thankfully, they're not getting it right quite yet. I think they wanna learn from each other. One thing that I was prepared for when I started working with MPP was the sports hook being attractive to business. So, you know, bit Yeah. And it's particularly men in business. If you walk into the boardroom and there's a bunch of bunch of males there and you say, let's do a meditation practice for 10 minutes, they tell you to, you know, get lost. But if you say, would you like to try a technique that this, you know, England fly half uses or that this Olympic, you know, medalist uses to help them make better decisions? Yes, please.

Karim [01:11:18]:
So it's a really nice, way to get into to some of those corporate settings.

Simon Ursell [01:11:22]:
That's that loaded word with mindfulness, isn't it? It's it's got

Karim [01:11:25]:
to It is. It is. And and I think connotations around meditation. A lot of times, actually, it's fear. People don't wanna give themselves the permission, particularly high achievers. And I think in the sports world, this is even more pronounced because time is so constrained. People don't feel that they can give themselves permission to take 10, 15, 5 minutes in stillness doing, you know, air commas nothing. Right? Just to finish that thread.

Karim [01:11:50]:
Yeah. So the the business world, they are very interested in in what's going on in the sports world and how are they, you know, performing at their peak. What I was what I expected less was actually the sporting world are really interested in learning from from those other worlds too. They wanna know how people in business are performing at a high level, the how they're making decisions, how they're approaching leadership. So it's this really nice interplay between the sports and, and the business. Also, both have things to teach each other, I think.

Simon Ursell [01:12:14]:
Sure. I mean, we've had we've had lots of sport, lots of military, government, big business. We've had all we've everybody on the pot. Everyone thinks they're rubbish. That's the really they're saying, isn't it, Rusty? They all think they're doing things really badly and that, you know, the military think business is everything type. You know, if we would like entrepreneurs, the military would be so much better. Entrepreneurs are going, oh, I really wanna learn from elite sport or

Karim [01:12:38]:
elite elite. Special Forces. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [01:12:39]:
And everybody just thinks everybody else is incredible and they're rubbish. It's quite amusing.

Karim [01:12:44]:
It's our natural humility.

Simon Ursell [01:12:45]:
Yeah. I think I think I think, as you said, Karim, like, the the best people are just thinking like scientists. Like, irrespective of whether it's the arts or sport or business or military line, the best is just learning from others. Yeah. Like, that's the reality. Like, and and the ones that closed the doors and think they've got it all solved, they might not have it all solved.

Simon Ursell [01:13:10]:
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe high performance. That's what it is. Walking towards trying to get better all the time. It's nice. We're gonna have to wrap it up. We've been going on a while.

Simon Ursell [01:13:20]:
Thank you so much.

Karim [01:13:21]:
Thank you, guys. Really, really enjoyed it. Yeah. Yeah. Really appreciate it.

Simon Ursell [01:13:26]:
Definitely the most number of quotes that Simon has written down. So well done. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [01:13:31]:
I've got a lot of quotes.

Karim [01:13:32]:
More than half of them are not mine. I can't take credit for them, but LinkedIn in the quote machine. LinkedIn. Okay. Months worth of posts.

Simon Ursell [01:13:42]:
Yeah. Yeah. Maybe not. But, over and out, everyone.

Karim [01:13:45]:
Alright. See you. Thank you.

Simon Ursell [01:13:49]:
Tom Plowk, mate. I love the way you nailed the pronunciation. I am still, trying to see how many commas there are in those numbers.

Simon Ursell [01:13:57]:
There's a lot of commas in the numbers. It's

Simon Ursell [01:14:00]:
not numbers.

Simon Ursell [01:14:01]:
And, yeah, Kareem. I I mean, I'm not as good at his dad at pronouncing it, but I reckon I'm now better, at pronouncing his name. So, yeah, I felt bad about that. But, yeah, a lot of numbers in I mean, my word, he he yeah. That's a that's a hell of a lot, isn't it? I think that would have made a lot of people quite upset. I don't know what you think, but, I mean, people get quite, stressed about money, don't they say?

Simon Ursell [01:14:24]:
I was imagining, how it would make me feel. So, I was I mean, let's talk about the stuff I've I've made me think about. I love the kind of mental time traveling. Would I be able to stay in the present, be grateful for what I have? Imagine that I would be more than happy to pay a large sum of money to be alive tomorrow. So I love this kind of mental time traveling, I guess, with lots of sports people or coaches. I would talk about gazing and staying in the moment, but I really like that kind of, you know, maybe you can then start to think about what's the stuff that take makes you travel into the future? What's the stuff that makes you travel backwards? Like, how can you stay in the present? So, yeah, I really enjoyed that, and I'm not sure I could have handled it the way he, appears to have handled it.

Simon Ursell [01:15:08]:
Yeah. I I mean, I he I think he kinda touched on that he didn't handle it brilliantly, initially. And he he said he went through the stages of grief with it, didn't he? So it was obviously quite challenging for him. But to come out the way he has and to be the kind of pretty awesome person that he now is is, is a heck of a thing. And that I mean, that's something I think in the business world that doesn't happen a lot at all. I mean, some of the coaching I'm doing now, people spend with other businesses, people spend a lot of time dwelling on the future and the past rather than trying to stay in the moment and be focused and clear about the task at hand. I think that's something that's one of those areas maybe sport is is a bit better than business. You know, we talk about that a lot, don't we, what we can learn from each other.

Simon Ursell [01:15:53]:
And I think I think that whole flow state being in the moment, I think that is something business leaders can take from sport and really use it as powerful. Isn't that?

Simon Ursell [01:16:02]:
Yeah. Well, that I mean, that would be my second bit that I took from it really was I just, again, mindfulness is interesting thing, isn't it? As I shared with my breakfast in the hotel with the 3 guys going, that must be a made up job, that mindfulness coach.

Karim [01:16:17]:
Yeah. But

Simon Ursell [01:16:17]:
actually, if we start talking about being at our best, and I know that, you know, flow states are about the right level of challenge, the right level of skill. That that translates for me and actually made me really start to think about whether am I in flow, when am I not in flow, what's helping me, what's not helping me. So, yeah, probably loads of stuff in it, but actually those 2 kind of terms of phrases. And I know I alluded to the fact that he had some great quotes, and I'm sure you've you've written down a few. Those 2 100. Nothing less stable.

Simon Ursell [01:16:49]:
I've got 100. I mean, I'll try and stick to. I mean, to to go to your flow state, I think I will use that because it is a more accessible word. I don't know. Mindfulness seems to get in the way of people, doesn't it, sometimes? I think they I think people sometimes are very racist. I don't know why. Maybe that's a lesson for them, really, what is getting in the way of people through that word. But, but I think flow state talking about getting into your flow state and then using mindfulness techniques, maybe not using that word, but that that's possibly a way to get people to to think about how their mind helps them and doesn't help them.

Simon Ursell [01:17:23]:
So, yeah, that's pretty cool. I mean, my absolute I mean, my favorite thing and the one I will now be using a lot, so I apologize for boring you with this in the future, Rusty, is no mud, no lotus. I mean, that's a that's a real Buddhist concept. I mean, for those I mean, we've talked about it a bit, but for those that don't know, the lotus flower is such a beautiful flower, but it only grows in the mud. So, you know, you gotta have shit to to create something that beautiful. And, that's a sort of that's a Buddhist concept that is, I think, incredibly powerful. So for those of us who've been through serious challenges and for those of us going through serious challenges, it is something to, as as Kareem said, to walk towards, not to not to shy away from, to to go look for the mud because you will become a more beautiful person, like a lotus flower. So I love that as a phrase.

Simon Ursell [01:18:18]:
What was your second, favorite kind of

Simon Ursell [01:18:20]:
Well, it was a little bit long. It's I mean, let let me see if I can get this right. So it's the beginner's mind. I think that's terrific, and I think that's something we all should be thinking about all of the time is in the mind of the expert, there are few possibilities. In the mind of the beginner, there are infinite possibilities. And, you know, you I I guess in sport, I hear people talking about, you know, I I used to love sport when I was a kid. And is that one of the the reasons why? Not just the fact that it's become all serious, but because I think the the sort of fun playing, trying stuff out side of sport, gets closed down. I I think when you look at the absolutely great sports players I mean, recently watching Marcus Smith play, he's just trying stuff out, isn't he? And sometimes he he'll he'll make a mistake and people will get on his case about that, which is bizarre.

Simon Ursell [01:19:14]:
But we can we can dig into that one. But, you know, he I think he's got a lot of possibilities, hasn't he? And I think he does have a beginner's mind from a for for large and there's and the great sportsman do. Tiger Woods at golf. And I've been reading a bit about him and he's, you know, he's definitely trying stuff out. He's not you know, he has a beginner's mind. He think he's thinking about all of the new ways he can play a golf shot all of the time. I mean, it's it it's just greatness is in there, isn't it, in that beginner's mind? I don't know. I mean, you know more about sport than I do, Rusty.

Simon Ursell [01:19:47]:
So what do you think?

Simon Ursell [01:19:48]:
Yeah. The best players I've worked with, and Marcus would be one of them, would be really amazing at accessing other people, resources to learn, to get better. Like, they would always be going, what's the next level? I think sometimes this kind of curse of expertise is a problem, isn't it? Like, submit some old fuddy duddy coaches who've been around for a while, and forwards don't do this, and when you do this, you have to do this. And we've got we've got phrases like always and never, and and and people are getting limited. And, yeah, I mean, it's it's really hard to do that. And again, I think I think, Karim alluded to it as well, just how hard that is to do in certain situations. And probably for me and him, it was probably with our family. So actually, when are you know, what just know it's when you're becoming judgmental versus curious.

Simon Ursell [01:20:37]:
Yeah. And what are the conditions that might lead you towards that. So, yeah, it's a it's a great nudge towards people, isn't it? And and maybe just to think, when do I really need to have a beginner's mindset? When are the moments where I find myself going into this kind of, I'm the expert, and it's getting in the way?

Simon Ursell [01:20:55]:
Yeah. Absolutely. And and a and a real sort of shout out to people that are flu state coaches, mindfulness coaches, whatever you wanna call them. That is a powerful thing to get into if you wanna be if you wanna get better because they help you access that beginner's mind, I think. I mean, I certainly having worked with, with my mindfulness coach, Mia, I mean, it is definitely getting in touch with the sort of way you feel and and that flow state, not not get not letting your brain get in the way, not letting yourself get in the way. I mean, that's a phrase you hear all the time, isn't it? It's like get, you know, get out of your own way. That really is what that's speaking to, isn't it? And I think working with somebody who can help you do that is is really gonna help you. So, yeah, it's a I love the beginner's mind.

Simon Ursell [01:21:41]:
I think, you know, no mud, no lotus. Beginner's mind, flow state. I mean, I've got a lot of I've got a lot of bullshit bingo to be taking away with me. So I'm gonna try not to overuse the phrases, but as you know, I get excited about these things.

Simon Ursell [01:21:57]:
Yeah. And I guess that we're gonna do a review of the year next and Yeah. You can talk about even more there.

Simon Ursell [01:22:03]:
Oh, yeah. And

Simon Ursell [01:22:04]:
I'm sure you're bringing a bit of Mustafa

Simon Ursell [01:22:06]:
I will.

Simon Ursell [01:22:06]:
From previous year.

Simon Ursell [01:22:08]:
100 although we haven't spoken to him this year, so I can't do too much of that. But but yeah. I mean yeah. I'm excited about to do doing the review of the year. So yeah. Listen out for that people because I think we've had an unbelievable year. Some incredible guests. I'm just loving doing the pod.

Simon Ursell [01:22:23]:
I just say it's awesome. Yeah. So thank you, Rusty. And if you think about it

Simon Ursell [01:22:28]:
12 pods. 30 minutes wasted on getting the microphones working.

Simon Ursell [01:22:33]:
How much of my life? How much of my life?

Simon Ursell [01:22:35]:
I spent 6 hours sorting out microphones.

Simon Ursell [01:22:39]:
No mud, no Lotus, Rusty. No mud, no Lotus. And I've definitely got a beginner's mind when it comes to microphones. So yeah. Okay. Thanks, everybody. And we'll see you for a review of the year next. Looking forward to that

Simon Ursell [01:22:54]:
one. Bye for now. Thanks so much for joining us on the Vance MacMillan podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can I reach you?

Simon Ursell [01:23:05]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursel, u r s for sugar, e, double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Simon Ursell [01:23:11]:
TikTok? No. Not really. Linkedin, Russ Lansaw. And then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts.

Simon Ursell [01:23:19]:
Yeah. Second that.

Simon Ursell [01:23:20]:
Over and out.