The Critical Role of Values in Resilient Leadership with Elicia Robinson | Episode 23

In this episode, we dissect the critical role of values in resilient leadership with high-profile leadership expert, Elicia Robinson. Elicia is on a mission to help leaders strengthen their relationships, think more strategically, and approach challenges with a fresh perspective - whether through coaching, tailored development programs, or guiding high-stakes conversations.

She has worked with top leaders across government, healthcare, private equity, and global organisations, including the UK Ministry of Defence, HM Treasury, the NHS, and Canadian diplomats worldwide. With a PhD from Cambridge in the Psychology of Change and top-tier coaching credentials, she helps leaders sharpen their mindset, unlock their potential, and lead with confidence.

Rather than over-complicating things, Elicia’s approach removes the barriers that hold leaders back, helping them focus on what truly matters. 

In our conversation, we explore how storytelling can shape organisational leadership, the importance of having continuity of purpose, and the impact of core values on the motivation of leaders and their teams.

In this episode:

00:00 Meet Elicia – social psychologist and high-profile leadership coach.

05:15 Staying true to personal values makes embracing change easier, leading to smoother transitions and greater acceptance.

08:08 Resilience isn’t just about bouncing back - it’s about understanding your personal narratives to recover and grow after setbacks.

13:10 The difference between Values with a capital "V" (organisational and aspirational) and values with a lowercase "v" (personal preferences that shape perception).

17:15 How leaders can use storytelling to embed values into workplace culture.

22:13 Change can feel like a threat to identity and past success - why emphasising continuity helps leaders guide teams through transitions.

27:34 The power of storytelling in shaping transformation and reinforcing unspoken norms and expectations.

40:49 How highlighting certain behaviours and outcomes can attract or deter people, shaping strong and diverse organisations.

51:26 In tough times, discussing shared values can create unity and provide a sense of direction.

Connect with Elicia here:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/eliciarobinson/

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell [00:00:08]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on. Welcome to the Bounce Back Ability podcast, everybody. Today, we've got Alicia Robinson on. Got a feeling she's going to blow my mind.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:19]:
What do you reckon, Rusty?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:21]:
Yeah. Social psychologist, super intelligent lady, really good at simplifying things, which is, I guess, a super skill. I've spent a bit of time with her already at Inner Play and caught up with her a bit on the phone and chat about a few things. I'm sure it's gonna blow your mind. And in no circumstances do I want you to just get me to start it in a really awkward way.

Simon Ursell [00:00:42]:
Okay. Well, I will not get you to start the podcast in an awkward way. So, let's, let's get her on, and let's not be awkward at the start.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:50]:
Over and out. Great. Hey, everyone. We got Alicia on, which is pretty cool. I've got to do the introduction. Damn. That's hard. So let's go to a couple of places that remind me of Alicia.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:02]:
One is in a play with Adam and, Martin, previous guests. We got to hang out and build stuff and play with stuff We did. Down in Exeter. And then the other day, I was in, Trafalgar Square, on my phone to you, and you you said, if you could just wave to the Canadian flags to me, that would be great.

Alicia Robinson [00:01:22]:
Yes. Yes. And then

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:22]:
it must be is it like the Canadian Embassy must be, like, nearby?

Alicia Robinson [00:01:26]:
Indeed. Indeed. The High Commission of Canada itself is, at Trafalgar Square.

Simon Ursell [00:01:32]:
Mhmm. So,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:33]:
I did that as instructed by you. So You didn't get

Simon Ursell [00:01:36]:
hold away by the Canadian people, but the Mounties didn't come out and get you there.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:40]:
Didn't get hold away on a on a moose. So, there's my there's my, connections, really.

Simon Ursell [00:01:48]:
So, Alicia, do you wanna tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are, what your job is?

Alicia Robinson [00:01:53]:
Yes. I am, a social psychologist and leadership coach. I I run my own practice called Venn Leadership, and I work one on one with leaders and their teams, either doing one on one coaching, team coaching, but I also design and run leadership development programs. And there's also one other thing that I do. I'm calling it leadership dialogue facilitation, so I can help a team have important strategic conversations, help facilitate that conversation, so you everyone leaves with distinct output, that that was the purpose of the meeting. And that doesn't always happen sometimes if, when you don't have, someone to help you facilitate. Thank you.

Simon Ursell [00:02:44]:
Wow. Yeah. I definitely need a bit of that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:46]:
I was just think thinking you needed that. You yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You were thinking some some You were thinking, I know some people that need that. I definitely

Simon Ursell [00:02:54]:
know some people that need that. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:55]:
And then, Venn as in Venn diagram.

Alicia Robinson [00:02:59]:
Exactly. Exactly. I think the the image really of a Venn diagram really captures my approach to life, my philosophy on meaning making, and also our purpose as individuals and how we exist with others on this planet. And so there are constantly kind of events happening, interpersonally.

Simon Ursell [00:03:26]:
That's lovely.

Alicia Robinson [00:03:26]:
Thank you.

Simon Ursell [00:03:28]:
And you've got a pretty serious background. I mean, I remember talking to you, you've got so you've worked with some quite, interesting organizations. I don't know how much you can share of those, but

Alicia Robinson [00:03:36]:
Yes, I have. And and continue to to work with a truly fascinating variety of senior leaders, both one to one and with their teams from leaders in defense, in the NHS, in private equity, a wide range of academics like deputy pro vice chancellor to heads of department and and quite a broad spectrum of professors. I also work with, senior diplomats and ambassadors stationed across different Canadian embassies in Europe, Sub Saharan Africa, as well as the United Nations. So I'm originally from Montreal, and I crossed a pond to The UK about twenty years ago. I, did a master's in organizational psychology at the London School of Economics, and then I did a PhD in Cambridge on the psychology of change in organizations. I did my research in Investec Bank at the height of the financial crisis. Wow. And essentially was looking There was, there was.

Alicia Robinson [00:04:36]:
And essentially, what I was looking at and really serves as the foundation that I use with my clients today is understanding what we need psychologically in order to buy into to change. So the the big reveal, my key finding here, drum roll, is that paradoxically Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:05:00]:
This one happens, but I'm not gonna press it because I'll get the wrong one.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:03]:
Give it a go. Try one.

Simon Ursell [00:05:04]:
So let's try.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:05]:
Which one happens.

Alicia Robinson [00:05:06]:
Alright. Alright.

Simon Ursell [00:05:07]:
No. That was guitar. That's a clap. There you go. Drum roll.

Alicia Robinson [00:05:13]:
There we go. Nice.

Simon Ursell [00:05:13]:
Last button.

Alicia Robinson [00:05:15]:
So the key to buying into change, paradoxically, we need a sense of continuity in order to buy into change. Yeah. We need continuity in order to buy into change. Continuity of what is usually the next question that comes up. And, research, my research and others show that it's about our personal values, the things we think are important to us. When we have sight of that continuing in the new world order, the new idea we're trying to make happen in a team, people are less likely to dig their heels in the sand rather. And when I finished my PhD, I started working in a large design engineering firm called Atkins, and through them was working with the Ministry of Defence and in a kind of change management capacity. And I always, I've always known that I've wanted to, have my own private practice, which I thought was a nice moment to when I had my first child to gracefully transition into that, which is what I did.

Alicia Robinson [00:06:23]:
And from then have continued, relationships that I have in defense, as well as with Canadian diplomats, as a matter of fact. So that building at Trafalgar Square, the Canadian High Commission, is quite close to my heart. And I've been there working with some senior diplomats, for a few years now, helping them improve the quality of their relationships, make better quality decisions that affect lots of people. I also work with academics as well. I'm on the board of the, business school at the University of Exeter, and I occasionally teach on their MBA. I coach professors as well, and, work with a variety of other clients in between. So that's kind of me in a nutshell and what it is that I do.

Simon Ursell [00:07:14]:
So many questions now. I think the third well, we were gonna talk about bounce back ability. Let's start there.

Alicia Robinson [00:07:21]:
Yes. Yes.

Simon Ursell [00:07:22]:
The podcast called bounce back ability, and

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:24]:
Mhmm.

Simon Ursell [00:07:25]:
Patsy's Anna Mustapha were on the pod as well. And they don't particularly like the word bounce back ability.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:31]:
I

Simon Ursell [00:07:31]:
mean, for Asti and I, I mean, it's, for those that don't remember, it's 4AM. It's going from the premiership down to the championship and then back up again. So teams that are that have good bounce back ability. And we can Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:42]:
Soccer AM. Tim loved joy back in the day. That's that and that's where the word came from.

Simon Ursell [00:07:47]:
So it was kind

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:48]:
of kind

Simon Ursell [00:07:48]:
of, you know, for us that that felt quite resilient for teams that sort

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:52]:
of

Simon Ursell [00:07:52]:
had the ability to cope with a challenge, overcome it, come back. So bouncing back. But then, I think in psychology terms, that's not necessarily the most helpful of of words. Well, what are your thoughts?

Alicia Robinson [00:08:08]:
I think it's the it's the back part, going back to something as though there is something to actually go back to. But I understand it from a sports standpoint, and rankings, and, and, you know, where one shows up. I completely understand it there. But I think for me, and the lenses that I use to understand humans, in terms of how we think about things, the angle that I take is more from a sense making, meaning making perspective. We're constantly telling ourselves stories and telling other people's stories. And the stories we tell ourselves really is what constructs our experience of reality. And so I think that the way that I would come at the idea of resilience is about bringing attention and awareness of what are the storylines that we are telling ourselves in a moment, perhaps where, where we have been rocked out of our comfort zone, something happens to us, and how then do we recover and pick ourselves up and move forward and continue to grow?

Simon Ursell [00:09:21]:
Yeah. I mean, it's fascinating stuff that the I mean, the the talking to the guests as we do on our pod, we I I think it's I I like the word capacity

Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:34]:
Mhmm.

Simon Ursell [00:09:34]:
Rather than resilience. I think it's something I was having this conversation with my wife last night, and she listens to the pod, so she's gonna get quite annoyed at me about talking about it. But, anyway, we we were talking about empty nesting. So kids have one of my my eldest sons left homes, living and working in London. Younger son is now, leaving universities in his final year now, and we're like, what do we do now? And it's quite that's quite challenging in terms of resilience Yes. In dealing with it. I think most every parent certainly will relate to this, certainly ones that are similar stage to myself and my wife. We were talking about capacity and how to deal with it.

Simon Ursell [00:10:16]:
So how do you build that capacity to, cope with change? Because we're now going, well, what do we do now? And I absolutely loved your continuity to buy into change because I was just talking about it with my wife last night in quite a big topic for us. So, you know, that continuity of purpose, and our purpose has been raising two lovely amazing boys who are now men. What do we what do we do now? So kind of our purpose has to change. So, I guess, the challenge for us is around resilience is our purpose now needs to change. Gotta find another one. And I'm not so sure

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:55]:
if I

Simon Ursell [00:10:55]:
buy a red sports car or a motorbike or get a hair transplant just yet. So I probably need to find some other way of dealing with that midlife crisis, which we are currently experiencing and kind of it. You know? I'm not really but up to you stressed about it. But we we were talking about having the the capacity to is is that something you would that speaks to you as a social psychologist about capacity and training yourself to have that capacity?

Alicia Robinson [00:11:25]:
It it does. It does. I see capacity as kind of like your your bandwidth that you've got to roll with during the day.

Simon Ursell [00:11:34]:
Yeah.

Alicia Robinson [00:11:35]:
You know? What is it that you're focusing on? What is energizing you? What's draining you? Being mindful, being aware of that and making mindful decisions, in order to optimize the time that you've got at your desk, the time that you've got on this planet.

Simon Ursell [00:11:58]:
Yeah. And that's sort of that's a performance thing, isn't it, Rusty? I mean, you'll see that in sport. I mean, you know, high performance environments have capacity to deal with challenge. I mean, what's Man City going through at the moment? I mean, according right now, they've just been hammered five one by us and are really not doing very well. How are they how do you think they're dealing with that?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:21]:
Yeah. I was really interested, actually, Alicia, in when you spoke about the values, like, Yes. Is that at an organizational level or a leadership level or both? So I'm thinking aloud about having been in lots of situations where there has been relatively significant change. And sometimes it's people who you kinda misalign. I'm thinking about why it hasn't worked for me, if I'm honest. So Mhmm. You're misaligned. Mhmm.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:47]:
Someone new comes in, and, actually, you're cool with their plan, but, actually, I'm misaligned with their values.

Alicia Robinson [00:12:53]:
Yes.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:12:54]:
Or or the flip side where someone else someone comes in and feels like they need to change everything, and it's suddenly a completely different place to the place you used to exist in. I mean, I I'm guessing it's both. I'm fascinated because it's probably something we haven't necessarily lent on that much around the value stuff.

Alicia Robinson [00:13:10]:
Yes. Yes. That's a great, great question. And the way that I differentiate it is values with a capital v and a small v. And the capital V is what, you know, in an organization, we'll talk about, we value X, Y, and Z, and it's engraved on the walls and it's everywhere. You had it on mugs and all the paraphernalia and stuff, right? Kind of an aspirational sort of thing, or, you know, this is what we stand for. That's the capital V. But our the things that we like or don't like, what we click on, what we swipe on, what resonates with us, what rubs us the wrong way as an individual, that small v really drives our, our perceptions of, of everything.

Alicia Robinson [00:13:57]:
And I think that it's profoundly helpful to be clear on those. And, you know, the word values is contained in the word evaluate. Yeah? So we evaluate everything according to our values. It's within it.

Simon Ursell [00:14:16]:
Wow. So so this small v values are the ones that are really driving behavior?

Alicia Robinson [00:14:22]:
Yes. Yes. In my opinion.

Simon Ursell [00:14:25]:
And they can also be, a bit more aspirated. So I'd like it to be like that, but that not that's not necessarily true.

Alicia Robinson [00:14:33]:
Yes.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:14:34]:
And then it it then made me think about, I guess, the behaviors of leadership during those moments where clearly, like, role modeling stuff is super important, but also, and we've had Claire Murphy on speaking about storytelling. Actually, being a a storyteller is probably a helpful skill at those moments to be able to bring to life the, you know, what is it, you know, what what we are putting a capital letter in front of.

Alicia Robinson [00:15:01]:
Yes. I completely agree. And I think the the power of storytelling is is because, you know, just like you say, a picture is worth a thousand words, but there are so many there's so much to be read between the lines that are spoken in a story where you have values. You can see it. It's signposted. It's demonstrated. It's enacted by virtue of how the story is told, by the decisions that the characters in it make. It just highlights, you know, the the the the driving principles and philosophy.

Simon Ursell [00:15:31]:
So any organization

Alicia Robinson [00:15:32]:
that's sort

Simon Ursell [00:15:33]:
of paying more attention to the small v and using that to help them with the big v is gonna have a, probably, a better ability to pay with change.

Alicia Robinson [00:15:44]:
Significantly significantly better position that they would be in. Yes. There is far less resistance Because the resistance well, you know when you hear about resistance to change, that resistance is essentially feedback that people are buying into a different idea than the one that's being sold.

Simon Ursell [00:16:02]:
So

Alicia Robinson [00:16:07]:
I mean, if I say it differently, we only buy into ideas that we've bought into before.

Simon Ursell [00:16:13]:
So how do we buy into a new idea?

Alicia Robinson [00:16:16]:
That's a very good question. Is it really new? It's about how we frame it then, you know, and this is where that value continuity comes into play. And if you frame something new, and I'm putting it under in quotes, but if it echoes and resonates with a particular value, then it feels less like change and more like continuity, just shaped differently. It's almost like we can detach, values from, temporary artifacts or expressions of those values. Simon's got his

Simon Ursell [00:16:52]:
It's blowing my mind.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:53]:
Blown blown blown my mind, Chris. Going on now, it's really good.

Simon Ursell [00:16:56]:
I'm loving it. This

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:57]:
is awesome. I mean, genuinely, brilliant.

Simon Ursell [00:16:59]:
This is so interesting. I mean, not just because I actually am going through a whole exercise on values at Tyler Grange.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:06]:
Yeah. No. Sort of. Thinking about

Simon Ursell [00:17:07]:
how am I gonna do that. And now I'm thinking I we are using storytelling, so I guess we're we're going in some sort of the right

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:15]:
There's there's a couple of things that made me think that. One is, I mean, I'm not a massive fan of the big reveal on the values. Like, here they are on the walls, and we've got the mugs as well versus, actually, they become part of our fabric through stories. Mhmm. Then it got me thinking about how or where do you think I mean, obviously, you've spoken to lots of people as part of your research in organizations. How wide do you think that leadership are of the skills and the behaviors we've just spoken about?

Alicia Robinson [00:17:46]:
If I if I were to ask you to is there a way that you could ask your question again? Or

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:52]:
Yeah. No. I do What's

Alicia Robinson [00:17:53]:
the question behind that question? What is it that you're curious about?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:56]:
I'm curious that, and I appreciate you asking me a question about my question, Alicia. You are in bed. You're in full coach mode. Is the Full coach mode.

Simon Ursell [00:18:04]:
Properly uncomfortable.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:06]:
Just lean back on the leather sofa. Yeah. I guess my experience is that people often come in during periods of change and just rip everything up and often are not that aware of their own you know, the as you said, we are evaluating their behaviors and their values, like, from what they say and what they do. And it's Yes. It's probably my biggest challenge in sport, if I'm honest, is that gap between what they said and what they did.

Alicia Robinson [00:18:42]:
Yes.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:43]:
Every single time a new coach came in or something changed, so I got a new boss, there was a massive gap between what they said and what they did. And it's probably the moment we are evaluating them the most. If I'm honest, I'll be you know, my am I allowed to mention names? Nigel Melville came at the r into the RFU.

Simon Ursell [00:19:02]:
No. You can't match names.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:03]:
Okay. And told us all, he wanted to do you know, he wanted, meetings to be quick and effective so we could stand up in the meetings. And if there was one thing that he had to do was being late for meetings. So we all agreed that we were gonna stand up for as long as possible in the meeting. And he turned up ten minutes late, didn't say sorry. And then while we were all stood up, he made us all sit down. So, honestly, he'd lost me within half an hour of being in the building. I completely lost me, and I'm you know, for whatever reason, I don't know if other people ever feel the same way I do about this stuff, but that yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:43]:
Your your stuff's really resonating with me, if I'm honest, at that moment. And then and then when he walked past me in the office and ignored me, you know, that day, I was like, okay. Well, I'm done now. My head is completely gone.

Alicia Robinson [00:19:55]:
Yeah. There's so many things in what you've said that I would I would love to unpack what there's, there's two things in particular. One is that gap between intent and impact. And the other is, I think, a, the traditional mismanagement of change management. This habit of coming in and changing everything when you first come in. Like, especially leaders, they do this, they come in and they want to make their mark and everywhere. And okay, we're just going to change everything. And I really think that that's what sets everything off on a suboptimal course from there on.

Alicia Robinson [00:20:36]:
Smart leaders will come in listening. They will come in listening and they're listening to what are the norms, and what is the current way of doing things around here. And the answers to those are imbibed with values. And once you can understand that there's an ecosystem that exists without you in it, that it's there, then you want to, you know, dovetail with that and blend in with that, and ideally bring some elements of continuity in your way or the new way of doing things.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:11]:
Definitely.

Alicia Robinson [00:21:11]:
Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:21:12]:
Smart smart leaders.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:13]:
And and while I'm still on the leather sofa, my other experience of this is the leader that comes in, and they pretend to listen for a couple of weeks. So you can you know that they're gonna Dean Ryan's a classic. You know that he's really working hard to pretend that he's listening and that he's gonna Yeah. But then you know he's just gonna, like, railroad you all with the plan and tell you what you're gonna do and change everything. And there's it's gonna feel like it's like, this really big surprise to you. And I I then really struggle. I I just wanna rebel against that if I'm brutally honest. The minute someone does that, like, my body is telling me, no.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:53]:
No. No. Yeah. Like, do the exact opposite.

Alicia Robinson [00:21:57]:
Yes. And and and now if we if we lean into that feeling and we zoom into the no. No. No. No. The heels that are actively being dug in, What is there? What, what do you find there? And it's the things that you think are important to you.

Simon Ursell [00:22:12]:
And the last thing

Alicia Robinson [00:22:13]:
The things that you value that you exactly, that you cherish. The other thing, especially in large organizations or, you know, where there are when teams are involved, is that attached to the old way is our sense of self efficacy, is our track record of success, is everything that we have carried with us, our sense of identity, is all attached to the previous way of doing things, and therefore all under threat when we attempt to change it. We tend to not give airtime to what will stay the same. We'll talk about, oh, then this new phone has eight cameras, or the reason why we need to move to Office three sixty five is for X, Y, and Z. We talk about the features and the benefits of the new thing, the new idea, without talking about what will continue, about what's good, about what has been. And by virtue of not talking about it, not giving it airtime, not making it overt, it's easy to assume that it's all under threat when you're on the receiving end of the change. And and I think that's a big part where where leaders, miss out or can gain, by taking into account. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:27]:
I have yet to be part of a team where that's happened. So whenever a new coach comes in, we'll they'll rip up playbooks. They'll change our way of doing things really quickly. The most the the most special one, and I might have told this story before, was a coach called Stefanel. He's the worst coach I ever had. He's a South African guy. And he came in, and on day one, he'd written out, teams one, two, and three. And he decided that if you're in team one, you are likely to play.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:23:57]:
If you're in team two, you could train, but it's very unlikely you play. And if you're in team three, you there wasn't that much point in you turning up to training. And that was his kind of first salvo with us. And Oh, dear. Honestly, like, I've never seen a a room lost so quickly. Didn't win a sin win a single game. Got sacked, left.

Simon Ursell [00:24:18]:
Yeah. That's Yeah. That's

Alicia Robinson [00:24:21]:
bad. It is.

Simon Ursell [00:24:22]:
That's poor leadership. So, I mean, in terms of helping leaders and, doing some things that are gonna help them with that whole listening thing, I'm thinking about, you know, in any in organizations either in the business world, there's people in coming in a lot of the time. You you've you've always got quite a there's always quite a bit of new people coming in, going out, that kind of thing. How do you, not the leadership, how do you help people entering an organization to understand what's there? Not because because quite often people will come in, they they will say things like, oh, when I was at this place, this is how we did that. It was much better than what you're doing. And then immediately, everybody goes, what? Why are you saying that? Not really interested. It's quite a not particularly helpful. I'm thinking about this whole continuity side.

Alicia Robinson [00:25:12]:
Yes. Yes. And are you are you talking about in the context of, let's say, onboarding? You know, when you got you have a new new members coming into your system or the your the system, the ecosystem of which you're all swimming in. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:25:23]:
Really help them get a feel, or even people that aren't onboarding, people who are thinking about, I might wanna go and hang out with that organization, work alongside them, or supply things to them, or whatever it might be. Yes. How can you help them understand that? Is that storytelling? Is it five words engraved on a wall? What what is the what are the sort of things that you think might help people with that so that you don't get a coach coming in and just doing team one, two, three and

Alicia Robinson [00:25:51]:
Yes. So in in that part, definitely, storytelling is is is, I would say, the answer to everything.

Simon Ursell [00:25:58]:
Got kind of

Alicia Robinson [00:25:59]:
Because our brains True.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:01]:
Storytelling is the answer to everything. Is the answer to those things.

Alicia Robinson [00:26:06]:
Well, it's the way that our minds work. It's the way that our minds create meaning. It is encoded in our minds in a narrative format. If I ask you any question, what you're gonna give me is a story.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:19]:
Oh, that's so true.

Simon Ursell [00:26:20]:
It just immediately popped into my head, people who, these memory experts that can record 50 packs of cards in an in order, they tell a story, don't

Alicia Robinson [00:26:30]:
they? Yes.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:26:31]:
They

Simon Ursell [00:26:31]:
give all of the cards a character, and then they tell a story about all and then they then they just, in their head, retell the story and just read the cards out one by one.

Alicia Robinson [00:26:38]:
So Exactly. Exactly. Or they tell you to picture your particular palace or a place or physical space, your home growing up as a child, and where you would put things in certain items, like remembering a deck of cards, or if there's other items, where you would put them in in in the house as you walk through it is another way of of encoding the information narratively. And that that increases the likelihood of retrieval. So as far as it comes

Simon Ursell [00:27:05]:
into any organization, if there are some really helpful stories around these are the sort of rules. Because there's so many unwritten rules in organizations, aren't there? Yes.

Alicia Robinson [00:27:15]:
Yes. I'd love to

Simon Ursell [00:27:16]:
really uncover the unwritten rules entirely, Grange. But they're unwritten and they're secret a lot of the time. So it's quite they're quite hard to sort of pull out. And I guess stories are a way of helping people navigate that because it's so hard going into a new organization, isn't it? As a leader, as a member, as what whatever it might be.

Alicia Robinson [00:27:34]:
It really it is. Yeah. But if somebody tells you a story, oh, look, we met so and so, and this is how we've been working with them, and we've been doing it like that for these reasons. And because we did it in that way, this you know, there's always a transformative element to a story. And then it created a different state. And now we are all being able to do X, Y, and Z. Through the lines of that story, the listener is able to gather the rules, the norms, the way you're supposed to do things, the right way, the, you know, and maybe not necessarily the wrong way, but the way that it's done here. And, and, and there's one point that you mentioned also when people make reference to, oh, where I was before, and I did it like that.

Alicia Robinson [00:28:15]:
Those are also moments of, rare moments of opportunity that you have to extract insight from fresh eyes, so to speak, because they also haven't been imbibed in in a in a different system, in your system yet. And so it's difficult to be able to get that sort of freshness after they've been with you and your team, you know, eight months down the line.

Simon Ursell [00:28:42]:
Oh, so true. Because it I mean, it immediately irritates you, doesn't it? Sorry, but it does. I mean, I

Alicia Robinson [00:28:48]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:28:49]:
About that. You find it irritating, don't you? Because it's it's sort of almost it's almost trying to push into your narrative something new, but actually, you're so right. Yes. That fresh those fresh eyes and that those new ideas that you crave those things. So, yeah, it is such an opportunity. And, really, that's that's quite profound.

Alicia Robinson [00:29:06]:
Yeah. I think also yes. Sorry. Go on.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:29:09]:
Did and through this, did you I mean, you mentioned some skills like storytelling and listening. Did you come to any kind of conclusions or some principles or some frameworks that would help people navigate change more effectively?

Alicia Robinson [00:29:26]:
Yes. Sure. In my own professional development, I've been learning more about, certain principles within Gestalt psychotherapy. I don't want to get too jargony, but there's one element in particular that, that I find very helpful. And often when we're focusing on change, we might be focusing on what we need to do differently. You know, rip off the playbook and come up with doing this, this, this, this and that. Yeah. Or we might think for our own, even our own selves, I need to do this in the morning when I wake up.

Alicia Robinson [00:29:59]:
I've got to do that. Oh, I got so much to do. I'm so stressed. So the doing, doing the performative behavioral stuff. I see that as, as really the end of an assembly line. It's the output at the end of the assembly line, but it's what goes into that, that leads to that performative output of doing, like our mindset, our beliefs, our unexamined assumptions, all of that jazz is what creates that the behavior of doing, the doing part. And so if we focus only on the doing, change requires far more effort. It feels heavier.

Alicia Robinson [00:30:33]:
Oh, I gotta do all of this stuff. But instead, and this is a key principle from, Gestalt principles, is if we focus on building awareness, that's the project, and that's, that's, you can say, the whole lesson diet through listening, what's the listening for? It's a means to an end. What's the end? It's awareness. Yeah? The quality of our awareness actually leads, dare I say, even almost magically, to sustainable change. So there's different ways of going about making change happen. Again, if I were to say it differently, you can focus on the doing, or you can focus on building awareness of what currently is holding the current state or operating model or status quo.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:21]:
Wow. That's really helpful.

Simon Ursell [00:31:23]:
That's really helpful. That's amazing. I've never heard it Thanks. I've never heard it framed in quite that way, and I think that's just brilliant.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:30]:
Yeah. Well, I think everything starts with awareness. I think it's the

Alicia Robinson [00:31:33]:
Yes.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:34]:
Key thing, really. And then you can maybe practice the skills, but I guess our values, our beliefs, they Mhmm. Kind of they sit underneath everything, don't they? So

Alicia Robinson [00:31:46]:
They they they do.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:48]:
Mhmm. Growing awareness around that.

Simon Ursell [00:31:50]:
And if you're trying to be pushed down a road that doesn't align with your values, it's quite distressing.

Alicia Robinson [00:31:55]:
Yes. It is.

Simon Ursell [00:31:56]:
It's really quite challenging, isn't it? If you're being, you know, moved in a direction you really don't want to go in and you kind of I don't know. It might be work pushing you down that way. It might be life. It might be any event happening to you. And in terms of bounce back ability, having a very strong awareness of your values might help you move away from those things if you can, more towards things that are gonna help you feel very happy.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:25]:
Where have, where have you seen this done well, Alicia?

Alicia Robinson [00:32:27]:
Where have I seen this done well? Well, I think what comes up to mind is with all of my clients. And I say that humbly. I think that without, you know, singling out any particular client or or sharing, you know, because confidentiality is a thing. I I think if I kind of hover over them all, I can definitely see patterns in the way that I'm I hold the space for their thinking. And it always comes down to them building awareness, just seeing their situation in a different perspective. I really believe that learning, growth, change, development, whatever you want to call it, are different ways of explaining the same phenomenon, which fundamentally is about a shift in perspective. And that can only happen if you take time to look at the way that you're currently looking at things to begin with, so that you have the opportunity to edit the storyline that you're kind of touting to yourself first. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:33:33]:
Wow. I mean, that's that that that's in that's that's beautifully put. And, yeah, wish I had that kind of feedback myself.

Alicia Robinson [00:33:43]:
We could work together.

Simon Ursell [00:33:45]:
That'd be very cool. So, so how do we relate this to resilience and to bounce back ability? You know? What what Mhmm. What do you think of that?

Alicia Robinson [00:33:55]:
Well, I I think my take on resilience is really anchored to a wider philosophical position on on, like, coaching or enabling growth. And it's actually I would describe it as a kind of subtractive philosophy. Let me explain what I mean. So, I really believe that our personal effectiveness is innate, that deep down, we actually know how to lead ourselves. And the problem is that sometimes we kind of get caught up in a whirlwind of ideas that get in our way, thoughts, specific thoughts that get in our way. And being able to pause and bring awareness to those ideas, those thoughts, that's weighing us down, that that is the key to having that shift in perspective. A bit like, you know, that expression, seeing the forest from the trees?

Simon Ursell [00:34:46]:
Yeah. Sure.

Alicia Robinson [00:34:47]:
I think that actually it's about seeing the trees from the forest, to be able to see which trees are actually getting in the way of you being able to maneuver through the context that you find yourself in. Yeah. So if we agree that, like, you know, I don't know, experience itself is 100% mind made, it's generated by the thoughts that we have. You know, if you're looking at headlines on the BBC or whatever like that, it's not that we're reacting to the headline, we're reacting to our thoughts about the headline. We are reacting to the thoughts we have of what someone just said to us, or the thoughts we have about the situation we're in, not the situation itself, but it's like it's like quite the illusion that we're in, that we think that we forget that everything is thought driven. So by bringing attention to our thoughts, we're then in a much better position to come into that whole editing, the storyline that we've got going on.

Simon Ursell [00:35:47]:
Have you got any stories or sort of groups that have that have, that have demonstrated this sort of real connection to their values that they're able to cope with with these changes? You you speak of seeing some. Although I don't wanna put you on the spot too much. There may be examples that you can't share, but it's just fascinating.

Alicia Robinson [00:36:07]:
It it is. It is. I think with the teams that I've I've worked with, particularly those where I've I've run a development program for that I've designed and customized for their team in particular, one thing that I do do, and I think it's worth mentioning because it explains the outcomes is all of my programs have a mixture of what I call learning labs, which is kind of, which is more the learning workshopping, working through ideas on, let's say, I don't know, building, psychological safety or trust or, managing conflict and all of that sort of stuff. But then the learning labs are also, interchanged with coaching circles. And in a coaching circle, as in a coaching conversation with a coach, with a leadership coach, space is held for you to think about how you think. Not thinking about what you're doing. You back it up a little bit. Forget the doing for a minute.

Alicia Robinson [00:37:10]:
You know, let's think about how you think. And that the quality of that awareness coming back to that ends up changing the way you do stuff. And when you do that as a team, that team is incredibly strengthened by virtue of understanding of having the awareness, having taken time to become more aware of what is driving them and what's important to them.

Simon Ursell [00:37:35]:
Wow. So, yeah, the the the uncovering of those values in terms of resilience building. I mean, if we're interested in resilience as that that one, I mean, it does feel like a small part of that, if I'm honest. But that that building of resilience, it all comes back to yeah. As you say, don't focus on the doing. Focus on what do you actually believe in? What is it that you're what what values are you holding? Everyone everybody in the room, are they all got different values? Are they aligned? Are we fighting with each other because we just fundamentally don't share the same values? It's all those kinds of things, is it?

Alicia Robinson [00:38:11]:
Exactly. I mean, there's always gonna be not everybody's gonna be on the same page. Let's, you know, be be real about that, but there'll be some there'll be some sort of overlap. And then I bring back the Venn diagram here. There will be some overlap of shared, values. And I think we can use that, attaching back to the notion of resilience, we can use that as like a rudder of our boat and how we navigate our boat forward, that the values are the rudder. And then it doesn't matter how the weather changes or what storms happen. When you look back at the wake that your boat creates, or even amidst the storm and you're not too sure where your boat is going, at least you can feel content because of a sense of alignment with what's important to you.

Alicia Robinson [00:39:01]:
It's possible to edit our purpose in life as long as we are clear on what's important to us. Yes. I mean, as a very topical example of how values brings people together, I mean, it's tomorrow effectively, Canada will be experiencing these 25% tariffs on Trump's tariffs. And I think what the speech that Trudeau gave has brought together Canadians, on the same page when it comes to values. It really puts things into perspective on what it is that you might be quibbling about between each other to see what's most important right now and what do we need to do, which page we need to stand on. And they are, and I think that that's a very, poignant example.

Simon Ursell [00:39:54]:
It's Tom Leadership.

Alicia Robinson [00:39:56]:
Yes.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:57]:
As opposed to the other guy. Well, yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:40:01]:
Let's not talk about it.

Alicia Robinson [00:40:03]:
Yeah. Let's not go

Simon Ursell [00:40:04]:
there. Yeah. Can I go back? We're gonna need to start winding up a little bit in a minute, but can I go back? So when we're where one of the things I'm really interested in here is having an organization that self selects alignment. Say, no organization is gonna be right for everybody, and it doesn't matter what organization it is. They're not gonna be able to provide everybody with what they need. I may have that wrong, but that's a belief I hold, I guess. But in terms of trying to be all things to every person is often not a is a pretty futile way to try and be. It's much better

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:46]:
to be Mhmm.

Simon Ursell [00:40:47]:
What you stand for and

Alicia Robinson [00:40:49]:
Yes.

Simon Ursell [00:40:49]:
What behaviors you want. In terms of so storytelling, say this is the this is something that happened. This is what we did. This is how we all behaved. These were the outcomes. That helps people look at your organization and go, I'd love to be part of that, or that absolutely sounds awful. I don't wanna be anywhere near it. And then you then is that helpful in terms of building a strong organization and that you're really trying to get more of the same? Or do you think it would be better if you were a little bit behind for mine and said, actually, we do need to have different perspectives and different types of people coming in? How what you know, I quite like the idea of a self selecting organization, but then I'm wondering, is that actually that healthy? Are we gonna end up very potent or eventually it's gonna become a little bit cult y, for one of a better word?

Alicia Robinson [00:41:38]:
I see what you mean. Yeah. I think it's a good good question. That that point about homogeneity, about cloning, about kind of thinking in the same way, I don't know if that is a I guess Yeah. Okay. What's coming to my mind right now is that IKEA and their you know, value based approach to doing things. They were one of the they were quite a leader in understanding the strategy and approach to using values to creating a very strong organizational culture. But I don't believe that they believe that everybody thinks in the same way.

Alicia Robinson [00:42:16]:
There's still complete diversity of thinking exists. It's just that there are certain principles that we all align on. Yeah. And I think that that's helpful so that when, when you're rowing together, that everybody is rowing at the same time. And that's, I think, really allows a team and an organization to generate momentum and pace.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:41]:
Yeah. I mean, that's I was thinking that. You'll have diversity of thought, but you could have alignment of values, couldn't you?

Alicia Robinson [00:42:47]:
Yes. And I would say that that's the ideal permutation, because then you you you have the kind of that's what will allow the creative friction to feed the innovation that you're looking for and create a problem solving. And, you know, for for example, leaders now need to figure out how they are going to onboard AI into the workforce.

Simon Ursell [00:43:16]:
Wow. That's a big one.

Alicia Robinson [00:43:18]:
Yeah. It is. It is. Maybe for for for a different,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:23]:
Oh, Simon will Simon will definitely have you back. And then I was also thinking about some other stuff that might get in the way. This kind of hybrid working has got a high possibility of getting in the way of some of this stuff. So how do you do this in a workplace where we're not together regularly sharing stories, connecting, I guess, is a is a challenge for leaders as well.

Alicia Robinson [00:43:45]:
It is. And I and I and I would challenge the the challenge about is it really that hard to still tell the story online? You know what I mean? It's still possible to we just need to be more deliberate about it. And that's the awareness mindfulness piece. You know, I think that that our success in in life, it it's a really fundamental belief of mine. I I really believe that our success in life, as a whole, as well as as a leader, really hinges off of the quality of our relationships. And so what is it that we can do and which is what I do as a coach is to help people, help leaders improve the quality of their relationships. And a lot of that has to do with being aware of of what makes people tick around you and being able to offer experiences and provide challenges, developmental challenges and opportunities for people to grow in a way that's in alignment with their strengths and the stuff that lights them up. We all operate best under those conditions.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:45]:
It's the best finish line to any pod we ever done. Simon's, Simon's written a lot a lot of notes.

Simon Ursell [00:44:51]:
Which is unusual. Alicia, thank you so much. What? I mean, brilliant. Genuinely, really brilliant. I really enjoyed it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:00]:
Yeah. I think, we might be getting you back for another, episode.

Simon Ursell [00:45:03]:
I think we definitely need to ask you more questions. But anyway, thanks for coming on.

Alicia Robinson [00:45:08]:
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I can't wait to be back.

Simon Ursell [00:45:11]:
Thanks. Bye.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:13]:
Apologies for the awkward beginning to help us.

Simon Ursell [00:45:16]:
You know? That was good. I think you did quite well, really. I ambushed you. So, you know, this what happens?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:25]:
It was like, when I was idiot. No. It felt like when I was Pocahontas in the school play, it was a yeah. It just took me back there. It was quite triggering, if I'm honest. But

Simon Ursell [00:45:37]:
Did it align with your values?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:38]:
What does it all mean? Possibly. I think we're gonna have so much to talk about now. We're gonna have to put a time cap on this.

Simon Ursell [00:45:45]:
Yeah. Well, we'll we'll we'll we'll try and do sort of five minutes or so. The the, that I think is poss in of all the podcasts we've done, that's possibly the one podcast that has had the most practical stuff you could do, even though she talks about not doing. Do you think?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:02]:
Yeah. I I was gonna knock knock.

Simon Ursell [00:46:04]:
Who's there?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:05]:
Mustafa.

Simon Ursell [00:46:05]:
Mustafa Saka.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:06]:
No. Mustafa who Exactly.

Simon Ursell [00:46:09]:
Mustafa who? Okay. Sorry.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:11]:
Yeah. Loads of stuff. I mean, again, just obviously ties into my biases around storytelling is the answer to everything, but, you know, it's about how our minds create meetings true? Yeah. It's just true. Sorry. Yeah. So, yeah, just that real emphasis. And, obviously, we're gonna get connect her up with Claire Murphy, which would be pretty cool as well.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:28]:
So Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:46:29]:
Get in the room. I might have to record something to share with everybody.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:34]:
Yeah. Actually, it happened last week. We're doing something in the Premier League, and someone didn't have slides, and they and someone just said, if you don't have slides, then your storytelling needs to be really good. So if you don't have the images to kind of bring it to life, then your story so, again, for leaders, just that skill of storytelling, just a bit of a nudge.

Simon Ursell [00:46:52]:
Yeah. Well, I mean, it's a skill, but it's, it's I mean, it's how our brains are wired. I mean, I thought, you know, the I I can't even remember the quote. There were so many quotes that I tried to write down and didn't you know, my my writing's not the best. I can't read half of what I've written. But, but that in terms of how our brains are wired to think of things as a narrative, I you know, that I I know that I know everyone knows this, but, I mean, how often do you actually really use that? Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:17]:
Well, at least you didn't mention the the that that's how people remember cards.

Simon Ursell [00:47:22]:
No. That's true.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:24]:
It's because I did a card trick earlier, isn't it?

Simon Ursell [00:47:26]:
You did a card trick earlier. Yeah. It was a very good card trick. I was impressed. I don't

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:29]:
know how

Simon Ursell [00:47:29]:
long you've been practicing it for. It must have been a while. Here, get out more.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:47:34]:
Go on. What go on. What what've we got? What's your first?

Simon Ursell [00:47:35]:
Well, okay. I would my first one is, continuity of purpose, and that is, what helps people to buy into change. So if you if if you come in and then that links to my second one, which is smart leaders come in listening because which I think is such a good quote. I mean, if you're lead hoeing somewhere new, don't pretend. Yeah. Actual listening. Actually listening and trying to understand what the purpose and values are in the organization you're coming into and then continue them, you are going to have a massively better chance of success.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:12]:
You might win more hearts and minds with that approach.

Simon Ursell [00:48:15]:
Yeah. So I absolutely love that. And I think I was thinking about it while she was talking about how many times I've come in all excited about something and not listened as well as I might, and it's not gone very well. So

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:28]:
That doesn't sound like

Simon Ursell [00:48:29]:
you, Si. Yes. It does. You liar.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:31]:
But

Simon Ursell [00:48:31]:
that but, you know, it's awareness, isn't it?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:33]:
Yeah. And and probably tied to that, my second one was about, like, what what are we gonna continue to do? What's what have we been doing really well around here? And just, you know, thinking about that, often we are just generally on the what's the next thing, how can we make this better, marginal gains, that type of stuff, but actually just taking time to recognize what are we doing that's helping, what are we doing that's right, how can we keep that alive, and then build upon that.

Simon Ursell [00:48:59]:
Yeah. And and you're and you're back in storytelling, aren't you? Because in order to do that, you need to tell some stories about what you were doing before and what worked, because that helps it frame it in people's minds, it helps them remember it, and helps them live it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:12]:
Way more likely to remember the story than the PowerPoint bullet list.

Simon Ursell [00:49:16]:
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And everyone writes a PowerPoint bullet list and doesn't tell a story. I mean, I I couldn't I couldn't tell you how many times you you went in some sort of learning environment, and you just got a list of facts. And your brain doesn't work like that, so you won't remember them.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:30]:
Pictures, helpful. Stories. What's your what's your third one?

Simon Ursell [00:49:35]:
My third one. You haven't done any yet.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:37]:
I've done two, but I've just done them, like Oh,

Simon Ursell [00:49:39]:
you've done cash? Cash.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:41]:
Perfect. I'll do my third one. Go ahead. Just the the word value is in evaluate. Like, you know, I got to I got to have a bit of therapy, share a few stories, and actually, you are like that person walks in the room and you're evaluating them pretty quickly based against your values, what you think is important in life. And with me, like and, again, I can't speak for other people. I go talk about this a lot, but if, you know, 10 out of 10 I give people 10 out of 10 on trust. And if you lose me, then you you're down to zero pretty quickly, and it's very hard to get back up to one.

Simon Ursell [00:50:13]:
Yeah. Because it's you've evaluated them. That's a great word,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:16]:
isn't it? Yeah. Stop it. Note to self. So you

Simon Ursell [00:50:19]:
evaluate constantly till it's boring. Well, okay. My third one was, Venn diagrams. I I mean, as an image and as a story, I think that's cool. I think it really helps me to think if I'm looking at a group of people, I'm not gonna think about a Venn diagram. And I'm gonna think where are where where are the shared values because that's where the that's where high performance is gonna sit.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:42]:
You've all I I know because we were chatting earlier. You've already got some people you're thinking about using it with,

Simon Ursell [00:50:46]:
haven't you? Oh, a %. Shall remain nameless, but I'm definitely thinking about the Venn diagram. So rather than trying to get people to see each other's point of view necessarily, I'm gonna be thinking about where is the common the commonality and try and get in there rather than get people to move into places that they don't really have a value in.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:08]:
As you said, loads of practical stuff for people.

Simon Ursell [00:51:11]:
Yeah. I mean, all over it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:14]:
I

Simon Ursell [00:51:14]:
mean, I think if in terms of relistening, I'm gonna relisten to that several times because there's a lot I've missed.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:20]:
Yeah. Don't listen to your wife because you've you've got a bit of therapy about, like, the emptiness stuff as well.

Simon Ursell [00:51:26]:
I did. Yeah. Yeah. I did. Well, that's helpful. Anybody going through that, think about shared values. That has gotta be helpful because it's a it's a tricky time. So, yeah, I don't mind, I don't mind talking about that, Rusty.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:39]:
Top work.

Simon Ursell [00:51:40]:
Yep. Thanks so much, and, we'll we'll see you all again soon.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:43]:
Over and out. Thanks so much for joining us on the Bands Back Building podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can they reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:51:54]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursel, u r s for sugar, e double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:01]:
TikTok? No. Not really. LinkedIn, Ross Blanchard. And then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts. Yeah. Second that. Over and out.