Letting Go of the Guilt: Strategies for Sustainable Leadership and Personal Growth | Episode 25

In today’s episode, podcast founders Simon Ursell and Rusty Earnshaw revisit some of the key themes explored throughout the podcast - examining what they mean in today’s world of leadership, resilience, and bouncebackability.

This is an open and honest conversation about the pressures leaders face, and what can happen when we don’t prioritise rest and recovery. Simon shares his personal journey through burnout and how it led him to rethink traditional work culture - including the decision to implement a four-day week in his business.

Rusty offers powerful insights from the world of sports coaching, drawing comparisons with business leadership and exploring what the two can learn from each other.

If you’re keen to learn more about prioritising wellbeing in your workplace, accepting and embracing change and leading with an openness for new ideas, this episode is for you.

In this episode:

00:02:20 Discussions on leadership exhaustion, guilt-driven overwork, and the lack of prioritising recovery for leaders.

00:05:35 Life stages and energy management - highlighting the need to plan for recovery time.

00:08:41 Regular debriefing of work days to allow the management of team members’ energy, and how leaders need to be kind to themselves to lead well.

00:14:13 Simon shares his top leadership tips: prioritising recovery, surrounding yourself with great people, and acceptance.

00:22:58 Discussion on the importance of mindfulness, flow, and embracing new experiences like sound baths for mental recovery.

00:27:19 Leaning into change and creativity is key for leaders; how resistance can hinder personal and organisational growth.

00:41:31 Why storytelling is vital for communicating these new ideas around leadership within organisations.

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell [00:00:00]:
Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability podcast. The podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:07]:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell [00:00:08]:
Looking forward to it. Listen on. Hi, everybody. Welcome to the Bounce Back Ability podcast part two. We've actually recorded this one before, haven't we, Rusty?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:20]:
Oh, right. It's,

Simon Ursell [00:00:21]:
we did. We recorded it before.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:23]:
I don't wanna mention it.

Simon Ursell [00:00:25]:
I thought I'd just get it out there because, you know, it's but it's I'm beating myself up about it. I didn't press one of the buttons on my fancy bit of podcast kit and yeah. Didn't record. Well, didn't record Rusty. It was just me and I thought that was you know, I don't know. It might have still been a good podcast.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:00:42]:
Yeah. I guess so. I guess I've I was just chatting to you there. I was listening to Amy Pompouras, I think her name is, or the guy over CEO podcast, and she talked about being indifference to things outside of your control. And I've just, you know, I've just turned indifference towards you. I actually did the one of them I I did it with Aaron Walsh. Walsh, good man, lives in New Zealand. I did an hour and a half podcast with him, finished it, you know, stopped the Zoom.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:09]:
I'm like, why is he not done? Oh my god.

Simon Ursell [00:01:11]:
Oh, dear. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:12]:
So he's you know, he stayed up late The blood poured out

Simon Ursell [00:01:16]:
of your face. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:17]:
Yeah. Then probably a little bit like you, I then debated, how many days is it safe for me to tell him? I didn't

Simon Ursell [00:01:25]:
I told you as soon as I yeah. I I sent I sent the sound file to the to the guys who do the editing and, yeah. They said, nah. This doesn't work. So Well,

Rusty Earnshaw [00:01:36]:
I'm glad we're getting a second chance. It's probably gonna be better than the first one. So let's flip it let's flip it in that way.

Simon Ursell [00:01:42]:
Yeah. So we had a we had a number of themes. I think we were talking of mainly, we were talking I mean, I was talking about exhaustion, so and and what we've just been talking about, you know, acceptance. And, it's something actually that since we recorded the last one and now on this one, it's happened several times again where I'm coaching a lot of leaders at the moment in organizations, and they're all tired. And most of the tiredness is a result of guilt. So they're they're basically think feeling that I should work harder because I'm a leader, so therefore I should do more and more and more. And they're not building in any time for recovery. So, you know, fundamentally, if you don't have some space to recover properly, as a leader, you're not gonna be a very good leader.

Simon Ursell [00:02:29]:
So and guilt tends to make you think, oh, everyone else is working hard. I gotta work harder because I'm a leader, so I'm gonna keep going, keep going, keep going. Eventually, you crash, burn out. Don't do very well. It's happened to me before, so I can speak with some authority on it. And, I think the sport world does it better, Rusty. I mean, I think you guys actually certainly for the athletes, in the sport world, there is a lot of time. You know, you you carefully build time around recovery, don't you? Or do you not?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:02:57]:
Good ask good asterisk from you about all the athletes.

Simon Ursell [00:03:01]:
Really? Yeah. I I They're not the co the coaches and They're not coaches. No. They got it. They got it. Well, I mean, weren't you in an environment where everybody was in, you didn't know why they were in, they were just sort of wandering around doing nothing, but they had to be in?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:18]:
Yeah. I I would find that. Yeah. So just to give you context there, back in the day with England, like, our new boss came in and just forced us to be in the office on a Monday and a Tuesday. Like, our jobs was to help players and coaches get better. We were sat in a darkened room, with no one else watching watching, like, teams he'd coached. So, like, watching Worcester and stuff like that, which was of no help to me because I'm definitely interested in creating, like, the most skillful and adaptable players in the world. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:03:50]:
And they weren't playing Forrester. So, no offense to anyone who played Forrester.

Simon Ursell [00:03:55]:
Yeah. It's the harsh harsh feedback for Forrester, but possibly possibly that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:04:00]:
So, yeah, I was just gonna get frustrated by that. But I guess what what you described there made me think immediately about, well, actually, now what's your definition of leadership? So if leadership is about showing up, helping others, you know, be at their best, whatever whatever you think it is, you know, vision, direction, then in order to do that, and clearly part of that is then, like, you know, you're making good decisions, you're communicating stuff, then you need to be at your best to do that. Like, decision making is exhausting, isn't it?

Simon Ursell [00:04:32]:
Oh, yeah. I mean, really exhausting. I mean, you know, it's like you know, imagine I mean, if you if you're not in that kind of role, imagine being in a job interview all the time, you know, where you're just having to think about fairly serious decision you know, answering really tough questions over and over and over again, and just how tiring that would be for you. I mean, it is exhausting. It's that mental mental work is very, very hard. I mean, I you know? And then I'm immediately there. I was about to apologize and say, you know, oh, no. But it's not as hard as other things.

Simon Ursell [00:05:05]:
I mean, that's exactly what I'm talking about. You know? This sort of diminishing what you're doing and saying, oh, it's not that hard. I'm just gonna crack on because I can cope. And I'm assuming that a lot of coaches are doing this where they're they're thinking, well, the athletes need to have time built in for rest and recovery so they can be at their best when they've got to perform. But I don't need that because I'm just a coach, so I'm not I'm not doing that. So I'm just gonna work, you know, twenty four hours a day and and then end up pretty bad at it, probably.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:05:35]:
There's two two things you probably made me think about. One is, like, what chapter of your life are you in? Because clearly, like, energy is the most important resource you have. Like, it is, you know, you're you're a you're a battery, aren't you, like? And if you if you get really low, then, you know, and if you get low consistently over a period of time, then you're gonna get ill and perhaps even worse. I think that depends upon the chapter in your life, doesn't it? You know? Yeah. You know, lots of people who go through that transition of having first child, I'm like, thoughts and prayers.

Simon Ursell [00:06:04]:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:06]:
Second child, oh my god, I'm glad. I'm glad we're through that.

Simon Ursell [00:06:09]:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:10]:
You know, moving house, getting married, all those, you know, all those other things that also require energy. Whereas, you know, you're a young I've just taken a couple of couches. I did a talk last week at Bath Uni, and I said to the students, anyone that wants to come and, hang with me, just send me a message. And so a couple of young people messaged me, met them on Monday, Was at the uni watching Chris Moody. Shout out to Chris Moody. He's a young coach doing great stuff. And then, so I took them to Palace and took them to to Arsenal the last couple of days. And, They've, like, gone out their way.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:06:47]:
Beautiful. Yeah. They've traveled. They've driven Alon's driven across London. Took him, like, two hours to drive five miles, like Yeah. All the stuff that happens. And and and they've had, like, amazing time. But they're 18, 19.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:00]:
Like, that's different,

Simon Ursell [00:07:02]:
to

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:02]:
to me, isn't it? They don't have kids. They got way more energy. They're on Easter break in a in a second, so they're gonna get plenty of time to recover. And and that's slightly different to me. I actually had a bit of a, I'm generally pretty good with my routines. I'm good at listening to my body. Thursday morning, got up, gym. Two girls at school, I was going for a walk with Glenn Toussner, who you know, got out of my car and was like, oh, wow, I feel weaker than normal today.

Simon Ursell [00:07:28]:
Hey, that's how, yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:29]:
What's going on? That's it. And since then, I've been sponsored by Lem Sips and Sweets.

Simon Ursell [00:07:35]:
Have you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:35]:
And then,

Simon Ursell [00:07:36]:
oh, dear.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:07:36]:
And then, today and tomorrow are my two days of I knew it was gonna be an I had a real, like, a brilliant week, but I knew it was it was a tough week. So I'm, yeah, I just I just plan in terms of my energy. I I knew it was gonna be a really hard week, but then this weekend and then next week, I've got stuff that's way more playful, way less cognitively demanding. Like, I'm cool. I'm good.

Simon Ursell [00:08:00]:
Yeah. Sure. I mean, I I hear that entirely. It's interesting, isn't it? It's, it's just being kind to yourself and realizing the impact. You know, looking ahead, I mean, pre morteming, which you talk about a lot, pre morteming your week, your month, whatever it might, your day, whatever it might be, and going, actually, is this is gonna be quite full on if I think about it. So how am I gonna build some recovery time, and what am I actually gonna do? Because sitting in front of least women or something probably isn't gonna work. You know? But walking in nature might work really well for you or, you know, spending some time with family and friends, those kinds of things. You know, the mental refreshment as opposed to the physical refreshment, I think, is often overlooked.

Simon Ursell [00:08:41]:
So that's that's really important. I think probably one of the biggest one of my biggest roles coaching leaders in the business world is really reminding them to be kind to themselves. And saying, actually, you've really got to think about yourself as part of the resource that you're leading, and often you overlook that and just keep going till you burn out. Not good.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:03]:
I think what you say there is a is a good point. Like, you know, you pre mortem your I'll tend to pre mortem my next day. At the weekend, I'll pre mortem my week. At the start of the month, I'll pre mortem the next month. And And you can plan that around loads of things, couldn't you? You could plan it around tasks if you wanted. But you could plan it around energy. Or you could plan it around happiness. Or you could plan it around connection.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:25]:
You don't have to just plan it around task. I think you've gotta find out what's important to you. And I just happen to think that energy is super important to me.

Simon Ursell [00:09:33]:
Yeah. Yeah. That's amazing. I mean, I don't do that, and I'm thinking I probably should. Yeah. And the amount of time you spend on screens. Do you remember what we committed to when I didn't press record?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:09:47]:
Well, at least it's given me a bit more time. I have been way more way more mindful of it. So on the first version of this podcast, I think we both agreed we were gonna have a dingy free day.

Simon Ursell [00:09:58]:
Yeah. Hold it to me. Twenty four hours, no screens.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:02]:
Which actually, would have been absolutely normal for me in my childhood.

Simon Ursell [00:10:07]:
Yeah. Well, and me because I didn't have I mean, too old. We didn't have screens. Yeah. We had a t we had a television that was only on in certain times anyway.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:16]:
Yeah. So Well, there was only mate, there was three channels. Yeah. You know, and

Simon Ursell [00:10:22]:
Started at every time.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:23]:
Something was not. It was not.

Simon Ursell [00:10:24]:
Yeah. Yeah. You didn't even had a you couldn't even record it. I mean, that and then eventually, you were able to put a VHS in and press record, but that was, yeah, not gonna happen.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:33]:
And the weekend would be, Saturday morning Trans World Sport. Rugby special on a Sunday, maybe ski Sunday. Yeah. Rugby special

Simon Ursell [00:10:41]:
ski Sunday on a Sunday. Yeah. That was a big one

Rusty Earnshaw [00:10:43]:
for me. Yeah. There we go. That was that was my TV for the week done.

Simon Ursell [00:10:48]:
Yeah. Yeah. Rest of the time out running around. So, yeah, I'm I'm looking forward to to doing that. And I think, you know, as a refreshment, you know, you wanna build that into your month, your week. Where where are your DigiFree days? Because social media, days screen time, days, an absolute energy destroyer, isn't it? I mean, you know, just we're we're doing this online, as you can probably hear. And, this this kind of thing is way more exhausting than doing it in person. If you and I were sat in a room with a cup of tea having a chat, this would be super easy, not that exhausting.

Simon Ursell [00:11:20]:
But the fact that you sat looking at a single point on a screen for an hour or so is is pretty tough. And do you think over over after a while? I mean, one hour is alright. But if you keep doing it all day, it's hard.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:34]:
And do you think leaders think that? Do you think that they look at their week and go, oh my god. Back to back hour. No. We panic. Get on to another meeting. No. Building no reflection time. Building no time to prepare myself for my meeting.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:11:49]:
Do Do you think or they'll just they see the diary and go, okay. I've you know, my day is full. That's cool.

Simon Ursell [00:11:54]:
I don't think they think that at all. I don't think they're thinking of that. I think they're just thinking I'm not you know, I'm because I'm not most leaders aren't doing. You know, they're leading, and they're they're they're making decisions. So they're they're just thinking, well, I'm not doing, so I've gotta be hoovering up everything else. I mean, certainly I mean, when you when you're looking at small business small businesses, so owners, leaders of little businesses, you know, with sort of, I don't know, 10 people that say, they're doing everything. You know, they are literally sweeping the floors quite often. They'll have to hoover at the end of the day, and they'll be, you know, organizing, paying the bills, organizing for the, cleaner to come in.

Simon Ursell [00:12:34]:
They'll be, deciding, you know, the desk broken, gotta fix the desk. The IT's done. Oh, I gotta work out. You're everything. You know, your accounts, your IT support, your HR, your customer care. You you are everything, and it comes at you relentlessly. But my experience is, and this happened to me as well, is you don't put a lot of value into those things because you think, oh, they're quite easy. The the guys actually going out doing the work and pay paying the bills, they're the ones that are really working hard, not me.

Simon Ursell [00:13:06]:
And you feel a bit guilty about it. So you just keep going, keep going, keep going, keep going. And then in my case, I ended up with a brain hemorrhage and literally fell over and ended up in hospital. So, you know, I think you we're so this is why I can speak with some authority on why you shouldn't do that. Maybe have a break. Not good for you.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:13:27]:
Yeah. I mean, if you I mean, obviously, you've stepped away from, that role a bit more now and doing a bit more. What what what are you, like what's your advice to if you what's your top three things that you're sharing with people around this?

Simon Ursell [00:13:41]:
I think that the phrase be kind to yourself, I absolutely love the word selfish now. I was talking to my mindfulness coach about this. I think it's really good. It's quite a good Simon word because it's quite confronting because everyone thinks being selfish is bad. Yeah? But, actually, if you don't, as a parent, as a leader, as a coach, as a any any kind of role you're in, if you aren't looking after yourself, the self, you're not gonna be very good at your role. Yeah? So we we're talking about that, you know, premortem, your day, your week, your month. Be selfish. So think about the self.

Simon Ursell [00:14:13]:
And it's selfish as well. I really love it because it's ish. It's just a little bit. It's not notes. Selfish. Just a bit selfish. Yeah? And and we're thinking about ourself just for a little bit, and going, well, how where am I recovering? How am I gonna how am I gonna be better? And I think things like a four day week are amazing for this, because it forces you to be selfish on a Friday. So I go and play golf.

Simon Ursell [00:14:36]:
There is no way on earth I would ever have played golf on a Friday morning if we hadn't done a four day week, because I would've everyone would've been working. There's no way I'd have done that because I would've felt terrible. But now it gives me permission to have a proper break on a Friday morning. Definitely makes me better. And I'm thinking to myself now because I'm now coaching and working with Tyler Grange, I'm not really doing a four day week. I'm working on I mean, this is Saturday, and we're recording this. So, yeah, maybe I need to have a bit of a think about that myself. I gotta be a bit selfish.

Simon Ursell [00:15:10]:
That's number one.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:15:12]:
I think it's harder when your work feels like playing. Just to add add one more thing to your number one, there's a really good, modern wisdom podcast with Naval Ravikant, and he talks about that. I'm holistically selfish.

Simon Ursell [00:15:23]:
Yeah. Yes. Absolutely. So, you know, and we're we're told that that is bad, so the guilt comes up. But what guilt is actually doing? Guilt's a really helpful emotion for you to feel. Yeah. I feel guilty. What's guilt telling you? Well, what guilt is really telling you, if you really look at it, is you're not looking after yourself.

Simon Ursell [00:15:39]:
When you sit down and you listen to the guilt, they're saying, oh, you should be working harder. When you actually sit down and go, what are we trying to do here, guilt? Do we wanna be a bit better at our job? And go, actually, yeah, we probably should be having a break, shouldn't we? And then you can feel guilty about not having a break, which is really helpful. So I think it's quite important to use these emotions for for what they are trying to help you with and trying to help you get better, be a better person, and then reflect on how you do that. So, yeah, selfish. Number one. Look. Be kind to yourself. Selfish.

Simon Ursell [00:16:10]:
Be selfish. Look after the self.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:12]:
With an asterisk under it of of, use your emotions, to to help. Because I guess and and we won't talk about you, your car insurance situation at the moment. Oh, yeah. That's fine. Anger anger really good for boundaries. Let's move on. Number two. What's number two?

Simon Ursell [00:16:30]:
You can't just drop that in. You've set me off. No. You haven't at all. I've become Zen and calm.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:16:35]:
Anger good for boundaries, so let's leave it. Let's go to number two.

Simon Ursell [00:16:38]:
Don't use Aviva. Number two Aviva are awful. So number two would be surround yourself with, great people. And this is a cliche. And I think a lot of people surround themselves with what they think are great people. So what other people would think are great people. I think you gotta sit down and work out who who gets who helps you get the best out of yourself and look for that sort of critical feedback of how you and and people who are gonna really put things in place to make sure you are things like selfish, you know, looking out for you. So, you know, shout out to Mia, my mindfulness coach, who I did my last session with her for a while because she's off to be ordained.

Simon Ursell [00:17:20]:
So I've got a new mindfulness coach, but she's been massive for me in terms of her holding me, in a very kind, wonderful way to look after myself and get better at that. She's been amazing. So yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:17:35]:
What is what does she what does she do that helps you?

Simon Ursell [00:17:39]:
Well, we we we meditate, so which is good, but she's really got me to think about having a bit of balance in my life. So rather than being all about drive, which is my superpower, I'm a driven guy. I always wanna be on it. I'm always coming up with ideas, wanting new things, do stuff, do do do do do. That's brilliant, but not but there needs to be some balance. So she's helped me realize that, actually, I need to spend some time pausing off screens in nature, doing she we talk about the skill of doing nothing. It's a real skill to learn how to do nothing, and I'm not great at it. But I am working on it, and it's really it's really cool if you can do it.

Simon Ursell [00:18:22]:
I mean, Rusty, you often talk about being good at doing nothing. I mean, it's something I think you're you're relatively good at. And I mean that as a as a genuine compliment. I think it is a really cool thing to be good at. But how how do you feel about that compliment? Does it make you feel uncomfortable?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:38]:
No. Not really. I remember Kirk, who's obviously who did a podcast speaking to me and saying, Rusty mindfulness for me is only fools and horses. Yeah. And so yeah. Whether it's doing nothing, but, I mean, I listen to music loads. I go for walks loads. I watch Love is Blind and just turn my brain off.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:18:56]:
Yeah. And people and and and if someone could go, oh, what happened in that last episode? And I'd be like, I have no idea.

Simon Ursell [00:19:02]:
No. No. That that that does sound very mindful. So

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:07]:
Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:19:07]:
Yeah. I did I mean, I I did a sound bath, the other day. My wife my wife picked it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:19:13]:
Oh my god. Please don't mention the sound bath.

Simon Ursell [00:19:17]:
I'm mentioning the sound bath. So, I mean, this is how the hell did I get here was what I thought halfway through. So I did a sound bath and I went to Highgrove, King Charles's house. Yeah? So I go to I go to Highgrove. There's a copper, in a guard house with a with a big gun with a big machine gun. And you start you give him your name, and he checks it off. You have to show him some ID, so I showed him my driving license. And he says, what you what what have you come here for? And I said, I'm coming to do a sound bath.

Simon Ursell [00:19:43]:
And I could see in a fraction of a second his face going, I spent years becoming an armed police officer. I'm guarding high ground. Pinnacle of my career, and I've got this Blake coming in dinner doing a sound bath. What the hell is that? What am I doing here? It's it was very amusing. And then we go into this room. There were 20 of us, 19 late middle aged women. I hope they don't mind me saying that. And Simon, which and I was curious about that.

Simon Ursell [00:20:12]:
So why aren't Blake's doing this? It's brilliant. Anyway, so I go in. I mean, women are so much better at this stuff. And, there was this lady playing a piano. She's an unbelievably brilliant pianist. So she played a piano. She was also banging gongs, doing singing bowls, wind chimes, all this sort of stuff. And we were laying on the floor in mattresses with our eyes closed with a furry blanket on, all all calm and cool and collected.

Simon Ursell [00:20:37]:
And I I was having a great time, but halfway through, I I open my eyes. I'm looking up at this vaulted ceiling in in King Charles' dining room. They cleared all the tables and chairs out and put a piano in the middle of it. And I'm looking at this incredible room thinking, well, this is weird. How on earth did I get here? But I think, you know, Mia and the work I've done with her got me there. So, you know, being able to go and do something that not think it's a lot of woo woo nonsense and realize just how unbelievably brilliant I felt afterwards. I mean, I genuinely felt about as good as I felt for a very, very long time afterwards. Just because you I mean, it's called a sound bath because you're bathed in sound, and you really you get to feel it, experience it in a way you just don't do any other way.

Simon Ursell [00:21:23]:
It's as it's cool as anything. You should go, Rusty. Suzanne You are. Started doing them.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:28]:
Well, and then yeah. I know. So I almost knocked over one of her plant pots, as I'm calling them. But by all, she had very expensive plant plant pots. A little bit like a mortar and pestle. Yeah. That's a singing bowl.

Simon Ursell [00:21:42]:
It's a it's a Buddhist singer. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:21:44]:
And then she she played it for I I heard her play it for a little bit. It was like, oh. And you know, it it reminded me of Zed for Zachariah at school. The book Zed for Zachariah felt like the end of the world, and then Googled Zed for Zachariah, and there was a movie that I need to watch. Yeah. And then, but she only did it because people who came last time were like, well, are we doing another sound bath? And I was like, oh. So So anyway, I didn't stay for the sand bath. Some other people did.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:22:11]:
Stayed, what? I mean, what's going on for you? What's going on for you during the sand bath? Because I would be thinking like, my mind's, of, oh, yeah. Oh, I need to do that. Oh, I forgot a pen. I could write that out of my hand now. Like, I was just like,

Simon Ursell [00:22:27]:
I had to ask. See, what that is is your drive, your it's this part that I'm pointing to the top of my head. It just won't shut up. It's noise. And the mindfulness and things like that help you to let that go and really get in tune with yourself and relax properly and, understand yourself much better. It's it's cool. I mean, I'd encourage anybody to do it. I mean, we both have a problem with the word mindfulness, don't we? And the fact that there were 19 women in Simon just speaks a lot about this stuff.

Simon Ursell [00:22:58]:
And I think, you know, the work Luke Doherty is doing in terms of performance, you know, and and I think in the sports world, people are starting to realize that this stuff massively helps performance. Like, not just a bit, but massive. It's huge. Because, yeah, when you're under pressure and there's a lot of stress and your brain won't shut up, and you because, I mean, I I use it playing golf, so a sport analogy. So if you you you cannot control the I don't know how many muscles you're using when you're swinging a golf club. It's a heck of a lot. Yeah? Your body can, but your brain definitely can't. If you start thinking about, oh, I've gotta move this finger or turn this hand a little bit or that, you the the shot's gonna go in the wrong direction.

Simon Ursell [00:23:38]:
What you need to do when you're playing a golf shot is empty your mind. The golf pros talk about swing thoughts. So you should have, at the most, two, probably one, and a good and a really top class player won't have any. So I try and empty empty my head when I'm swinging a golf club, and it really helps. Because all you're doing, and when you're sitting there thinking about all those things, you're getting in your body's way. You know, your body knows what it's doing. It's it's really good at it, so let it do it. And that's what mindfulness gives you, is the ability to to perform a very, very complex task, without getting in its way with all these weird thoughts you have.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:18]:
Shout out to James Harmer, who I'm very good at helping him get his body in the way You are. When he's playing the

Simon Ursell [00:24:23]:
golf ball. When you get out of

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:24]:
your cycle get to me.

Simon Ursell [00:24:25]:
When you're when you're winding someone up, I mean, that's one of the things that happens in sport, isn't it? You get in your opponent's head. Because when when they're thinking about you, they're they're they're thinking about you and their body doesn't isn't able to Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:37]:
Or would you with with James, it's more like, oh, man, is that back foot 45 degrees or 50 degrees?

Simon Ursell [00:24:44]:
Yeah. Can't

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:44]:
quite work it out. You are.

Simon Ursell [00:24:47]:
A terrible human being, Russell Aaron.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:49]:
How does your left thumb feel when you're doing this? It's,

Simon Ursell [00:24:53]:
that's so cool. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:24:56]:
It actually reminded me a bit of I think, when we did this pod for the first time, and hopefully we'll get him on the pod, we chatted about Sam Leaming. And he just spoke a lot about, like, finding flow, finding peace Yeah. Which was helpful, like, having flow experiences where you just it's just happening for you is

Simon Ursell [00:25:16]:
That's it. That's it. That's it. That's exactly what mindfulness and we shouldn't be calling it mindfulness. We should be calling it flow. We should be calling it

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:23]:
mindfulness. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:25:24]:
Because it is when your brain isn't getting in the way, when, you know, when you're just doing beautifully brilliant work, whatever that might be in sport, business, whatever you're doing. When you're in flow, you're just great at it, and it's that's what mindfulness tunes into. I love it. I think I think it's so cool.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:43]:
So we're still doing your top three tips. Yeah. We're on top. We did selfish. Yep.

Simon Ursell [00:25:47]:
Yeah. And then surrounding yourself with great people, and we're talking about mindfulness too.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:25:51]:
Sure. What's three? What's three?

Simon Ursell [00:25:53]:
Three, I think three would be for me, I mean, this I guess it's gonna be personal. But for me, it would be all around creativity and getting really good with change and getting accept so I guess acceptance. We touched on that, and we already on the pod. So, wanting change. I think a lot of leaders start sticking barriers up because they get so busy. They get so overwhelmed. They're just like, just don't change anything because I can't cope with what I've already got. And as soon as you do that, you're in real trouble.

Simon Ursell [00:26:22]:
So as soon as you start being resistant to change, you're in real trouble. Because the world changes around you. I mean, just look at the news right now. I mean, we're recording this and Donald Trump has lost his mind. Well, he probably hasn't lost his mind as he I wonder whether he actually knows exactly what he's doing. But anyway, there's a lot of people are quite stressed, aren't they? And it's like, oh, it's changed and it's and it's a disaster. I'm thinking as an entrepreneur, this is probably gonna be pretty good. Because what's gonna happen is a lot of norms and businesses are gonna get broken up, which is gonna be tragic for people.

Simon Ursell [00:26:56]:
Yeah. So don't get me wrong there. I think this is awful and shouldn't happen. But I'm also thinking, well, a whole load of stuff's gonna get broken. A lot of businesses are gonna fall over. People are gonna have to start doing things in a different way. And when that happens, somebody who loves change, I love change, generally does quite well. I think it's, it's about creativity and change.

Simon Ursell [00:27:19]:
So in terms of my business leadership coaching, those are my top three. It's, it's that surrounding yourself with great people is is probably my number one, I think. So I would start with that one. But, yeah, change. Being great at it. And and and the great entrepreneurs I know, the ones who are really great at this, just love really, really love a bit of change.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:46]:
Yeah. I get that. They got a slightly different mindset towards it. I did a half marathon, by the way.

Simon Ursell [00:27:53]:
When?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:27:54]:
Well, just about two weeks ago. I did the Bath Half Marathon and didn't train as well as I I could, and the game judges your training. And then, I got a bit excited because there was a crowd. I don't think I've ever run-in front of a crowd. So, you know, Olympics and all that.

Simon Ursell [00:28:13]:
Did you do any autographs?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:28:16]:
I was well, for the first half, I was probably going too quick to do autographs. The second half, I could have written loads. Yeah. Second half, I was definitely like

Simon Ursell [00:28:24]:
You should have stopped and done some watercrafts to give yourself a break.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:28:27]:
Doing a fast walk slash slow run. Yeah. High fiving high fiving kids and being too exhausted to take sweets off people. So people are like, it's not my dream really, buckets of sweets along the outside and now you can grab a sweet, but I thought, I'm not sure I'm going quickly enough to deserve a sweet here. And if I'm quite honest, if there wasn't people there, I might have just gone to training and gone home. Yeah. So it really, like, honestly, it's, you know, a couple of weeks back now, and I'm I think I'm still recovering from it.

Simon Ursell [00:29:00]:
Yeah. Which

Rusty Earnshaw [00:29:00]:
is sad, really. And it hasn't and this weekend, I was tomorrow, I was due to do the the Brighton marathon and full of beans, and I'm gonna do this. And safe to say I'm not.

Simon Ursell [00:29:11]:
No. No. I don't think you should do the Brighton math indeed. Let's be kind to yourself. Be selfish. Yeah. Well, you're not gonna be very good next week if you do that, are you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:29:20]:
Yeah. No. I'm not gonna be able to move. And then I guess what it but what I did love about it was just the struggle. Like, I know you don't yeah. You don't want your whole life to be struggle, but I definitely you know, that I think human talks a bit bit about exercising your, you know, delayed gratification a little bit more, like not picking your phone up when you wanna pick it up, not doing this when you wanna. And so it was it was pretty it was pretty good for me, I think, from a definitely from a in the long term, it was good for my body. In the in the short and long term, I think it was very good for my mind.

Simon Ursell [00:29:57]:
Well, yeah. I mean, I mean, I'm no expert, but a psychologist would talk about happiness, wouldn't they, and that being about challenge. So, you know, you you if you don't have purpose, challenge. If you're not trying to achieve something, you you really can't be very happy. So if you have no real purpose or challenge in your life, that makes you pretty sad. So having something difficult to do makes you happy. So, yeah, delayed gratification. But, again, I would I would push people towards people like me, Erin, to help them really feel that.

Simon Ursell [00:30:30]:
So because you can I can, you know, I can be on in the gym on a treadmill running and thinking, oh, this is absolutely killing me? But then think listening to my my body whilst doing it and thinking, actually, this is great because my body's enjoying it. It's really just up here in my head that I'm not enjoying it because it's, you know, it's hard. But my body's thinking, yeah. This is great. And when you actually listen to it, you can then then then you can keep going, to a point.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:31:01]:
Yeah. The the I think I said to you, like, the late the lady, Evie, on the Dow CEO said, like, there's no problems in the real world, only in your mind. And, actually, like, the way she spoke about it was so, like so she she was in the nine eleven, and she said people talk about, like, I'm a nine eleven survivor, and that becomes their identity and almost becomes this thing they wanna talk about. And, you know, and she just said, dear, that that doesn't live in my house. Yeah. That was that that was a day that of my life. It doesn't define who I am. It's not part of my identity, which I think is a, yeah, I guess, possibly quite helpful, but also very extreme way of viewing stuff.

Simon Ursell [00:31:45]:
Well, I think as long as it's acceptance. So, like, you know, accepting the experience for what it was, and then there's the kazasa growth opportunity. But accepting it and they're done within a dealt with. If you if it keeps going round and round and round and you keep talking about it, that's really not cool. But as long as you're not denying it and going, I'm not going there. I just don't wanna talk about that anymore, and I'm just dismissing it. That's back because it's probably gonna sit around and cause you problems. So, you know, having a having an experience like that, which I couldn't even imagine, I imagine takes a bit of work to to be accepting of it.

Simon Ursell [00:32:18]:
So she's clearly a very, resilient, tough, selfish lady. You know? She really worked on herself a lot. I I mean, I love that, the framing of it. That doesn't live in my house, as long as that isn't denial.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:32:35]:
Yeah. She, that was interesting. I guess I never really thought about this because she just said that loads of people that survived haven't been in a multistory building before, haven't been in a plane before. Again, sorry. Yeah. Since the experience, she said, I'd I'd you know, I'd I flew a couple of weeks later. Like, I I just I wanted to move on from it, and it I didn't want it to be something that defined me.

Simon Ursell [00:32:59]:
No. Absolutely. I mean, you know, there's that sort of traumatic experience can you know, there's the fight, flight, freeze response, isn't it? And, you know, that avoidant behavior, well, I'm not going in a tour, but I'm not going on a plane isn't helping you, is it? So, you know, that's something, you know, understandable for sure, but something to work on. You know, with my experiences with, my son's illness and all that kind of stuff, I've had to work really hard on that, because, you know, going to hospitals was very hard for me. And being around those sorts of environments made me really uncomfortable, but now it doesn't. But it's taken me years to sort that out. Not Yeah. It's not an easy thing to do.

Simon Ursell [00:33:39]:
So, yeah, I think, you know, being kind to yourself and realizing that it's perfectly normal to feel that way is fine. You can't look at someone like her, idealize it, and go, I'm gonna be like that, and then become all avoidant because it's just gonna hurt you. You gotta be kind and accept. It's it's an acceptance. I think acceptance is a big one. You know? Being able to accept that those things happened and that you've grown from it is is really important. But don't avoid it. You know, you need to you need to give it some air or it'll make you ill.

Simon Ursell [00:34:08]:
And, I mean, that's what happened to me anyway. So yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:11]:
And maybe and without without wanting to make you ill, let's talk about your insurance, claim. That'd be

Simon Ursell [00:34:18]:
that's how rubbish.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:34:19]:
I think that's a I think there's a mindset and there's a skill set here though, isn't there? So you're talking about the the mindset of acceptance, but also then maybe in your situation, there's there's a skill set around, like, challenging conversations almost. And I guess I'm bringing that up just because it's something that we do a lot with leaders and with coaches is around their ability to have, let's call them important conversations with people. So

Simon Ursell [00:34:46]:
Yeah. We have tie well, tighter grange gets Suzanne into I mean, that's one of the things we coach our leaders on is how to have challenging conversations so we don't avoid them. Because then then it becomes an elephant in the room, doesn't it? And it becomes damaging and hurtful hurtful to everybody around that challenging conversation that hasn't happened. You know, this person's not performing. I don't want to talk to them about it because it feels hard. And at the moment, I've got a million other things to do. I'm really busy. It's just I just don't want to do it.

Simon Ursell [00:35:13]:
That's bad. You don't wanna be doing that. It's avoiding things. Avoiding those things is difficult. And, again, speak from experience. Naturally, I would have I would avoid those. I've got better at it. Still a little bit like that at times, but generally speaking, I now try and walk towards them.

Simon Ursell [00:35:31]:
But it is a skill you can train yourself to do.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:35:34]:
Yeah. But that's the there's a mindset, and it is linked, I guess, to skill set, isn't it? So you're, you know, you're you're actually a skill set around those conversations around things like, you know, being really good with a statement of intent, awesome at asking, you know, questions, your listening skills. Like, I do I think it's a bit of both. I'm not I guess what I'm, yeah, trying to nudge people towards is, you know, in leadership positions, it's not just the the mindset part of it is they've got to constantly be upskilling themselves.

Simon Ursell [00:36:05]:
Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Again, be kind to yourself. You're not good at it. Most people aren't. Go and find someone who's good at it and learn and and grow. I mean, yeah, a huge huge thing, though, isn't it? I mean, in every world, those difficult conversations, parenting, leading, coaching, playing, whatever it might be you're doing, having a difficult conversation with someone is is massively important to you.

Simon Ursell [00:36:32]:
I mean, you don't I mean, but then again, you don't wanna be wandering around just being challenging and having difficult conversations with people all day either. Do you? No.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:39]:
I don't know.

Simon Ursell [00:36:40]:
I mean, that is a tendency of some coaches that you know that would do that constantly.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:36:46]:
Yeah. I think it's skillful. I think it's important conversations. And you just triggered me again. I was at, Palace and took the young students with me. And and they asked Hazy, the 20 coach, what's like your what's your advice for someone like us? And he just said, go find people that are better than you and coach with them. Yeah. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:06]:
I thought, wow. That's such a It's the

Simon Ursell [00:37:08]:
best advice.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:08]:
Simple, helpful piece of advice, isn't it? Yeah. And and and EV and the and the secret agent, secret service agent said exactly the same. Like, I just wanted to hang out with all the best and learn from them. And, and again, it goes back to your, like, the people around you. I do wonder how many people are, like, more than happy to be the the smartest person in the room.

Simon Ursell [00:37:31]:
Oh, that's fantastic.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:32]:
Yeah. Versus actually you know, actually, I'm gonna go and put myself in in some uncomfortable situations and and learn. And I guess we're both lucky because we get to hang out with some people that are way wiser than us. Oh, yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:37:47]:
Love it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:37:48]:
And steal and adapt.

Simon Ursell [00:37:50]:
Definitely. I mean, saying yes is a big one, isn't it? Because the opportunities to do that happens. But I don't know about I mean, we're lucky, I guess. But I think most people get these opportunities to craft and say no to them because then they necessarily think it's that important. But, you know, somebody might say, oh, I'm going to do this. Just saying, oh, could I come along? But it's like the two guys that messaged you. So out of all this, how many students did you make the offer to?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:19]:
70.

Simon Ursell [00:38:20]:
Okay. And two replied?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:23]:
Yeah. Yeah. So that was

Simon Ursell [00:38:24]:
There you go. So

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:24]:
That's good feedback. That's good feedback for me.

Simon Ursell [00:38:27]:
Well, it could be some feedback for you, but also great feedback for 70 kids who maybe haven't haven't had the learning experience that showed them sticking their hand up results in some pretty unbelievable things. Because I'd imagine those two kids have gone back to their mates and go, oh, I've been to Palace. I've been what was it? Arsenal was the other one?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:38:45]:
Arsenal. Yeah. I was saying so. We were with some of the youngies at Arsenal. I was like, Alan, imagine, like, if those players go and play for England, you'd be able to, like, say you helped coach them.

Simon Ursell [00:38:55]:
I coached them. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, you were at Jude Bellingham, isn't it? You helped coach

Rusty Earnshaw [00:39:00]:
I was I was around, Birmingham when Jude was playing, so I'm claiming that one. Yeah. It's it's good it's good claim, mate.

Simon Ursell [00:39:08]:
But, yeah, get I mean, again, this is this is challenge, isn't it? So those two kids have walked towards a challenge. They've they've gone, wow. They've got this, you know, this this big chap called Rusty who looks like he's really quite important and wonderful and brilliant. And I'm yeah. Okay. But I reckon a lot of those kids would have been thinking that. And that that's quite intimidating. So for them to stick their hands up and go, yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:39:30]:
I'm gonna come. They've now gone back to university and said to those other kids, we've been doing all these amazing things. Those other kids are thinking, why didn't I put my hand up? And they're feeling bad about it, guilty about it, and all those kind of negative things. They should use those negative thoughts to help them stick their hand up next time someone makes an offer. But I guess that's a challenge for all of us. When someone says, would you like to, and you're tired and you, you know, you're not you haven't got much time, get used to saying yes and putting yourself out there, as long as you're building in some selfish time.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:05]:
Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing just that you've kind of nudged me towards is out of Cambridge reunions. So I haven't been in we played the master match in '95, and, it's been thirty years since, anyone that's as bad at maths as me. And I haven't been to a single reunion in thirty years.

Simon Ursell [00:40:25]:
Oh, deep.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:26]:
She's Saturday. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:40:27]:
A little bit.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:27]:
And and we did a tour of Cambridge with Tony Rogers who was the coach and now does tours, and he's Tony's probably about 80 now, I think. And there's a clock in Cambridge. I don't know if you've seen it. There's like this golden clock. It's worth millions. It's got ripples in it. It's about the ripples of time and the ripple effect, and there's this little creature at the top that's kinda dragging time away from people. So those, the guests, those moments you miss, you know, you you might not get that well.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:40:57]:
You don't get the opportunity again. You hear people say all the time, oh, there's an hour of my life I'll never get back. And, of course, they are never gonna get that hour back.

Simon Ursell [00:41:05]:
What's the name of the, band that played the song, It's Later Than You Think? It's reggae, isn't it? Can't remember the name of the band.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:41:12]:
Oh, I do. No. I do. Enjoy Yourself,

Simon Ursell [00:41:14]:
It's Later Than You Think. I think, and isn't that actually a line they've stolen off of the, the Rome it's a Roman thing. It's it's written on a lot of Roman temples, isn't it? The specials. The specials. There you go. Yeah. Enjoy yourself. It's later than you think.

Simon Ursell [00:41:31]:
So, yeah, maybe have that tune playing in your head when when someone's offering you something, and then stick your hand up and say yes and go to Arsenal And Palace and have a brilliant time. So, yeah, I think that that would be pretty cool. Yeah. Really cool. One other thing I wanted to touch on today was storytelling as well because I'm slight I'm I'm obsessed with storytelling now. I mean, that is possibly the secret to communication. And if you think communication is important, I happen to think it's possibly one of the most important skills, being good at arms, then storytelling is the absolute, Premier League of of communications, being a good storyteller. At the moment, we're talking to a lot of business types at Target Grange, private equity types.

Simon Ursell [00:42:21]:
And, one of the things we're doing at the moment is working with Claire Claire Murphy on how to tell stories to them about Tyler Grange.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:28]:
Yep. Yep.

Simon Ursell [00:42:30]:
Loving it. Absolutely loving it. And it come it came up in our last pod with Alicia, didn't it, in a in a fairly big way. And it's a theme that I think has come through bounce back ability is this ability to tell stories is so, so powerful, and helpful. And and when you realize what's going on, you come across it everywhere as well. I mean, this podcast is storytelling, and we're just telling stories, aren't we, really?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:42:59]:
Just two middle to old age men, Charlie.

Simon Ursell [00:43:02]:
Sad old plagues talking about nonsense.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:04]:
Shame. Sorry. For you for your for your for your for your one listener, your wife.

Simon Ursell [00:43:09]:
For for my wife and my mom. Yeah. Oh, that was fair play. JB stood up in front of the team and said, please download Simon's podcast, so maybe our listeners are gonna go up a few. So shout out to the Tiger Grand Giant

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:21]:
fun. Yeah.

Simon Ursell [00:43:21]:
If you're listening to his part now.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:23]:
I I did say to you. I do I do I do get lots of messages about it. I do send them to you. So Yeah. Yeah. There are some people listening. There are some people listening.

Simon Ursell [00:43:31]:
We've got a few. We've got a few. It's quite nice, and it's good.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:34]:
It's Just to build on this We're

Simon Ursell [00:43:35]:
doing so.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:35]:
And just to build on the storytelling, like, yeah, Clem Murphy, big shout out. Obviously, like

Simon Ursell [00:43:40]:
Oh, man.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:43:40]:
One of your favorite one of your favorite pods. And then, there is a really good, knowledge project podcast one with Matthew Dicks as well. But I do think it's like for leaders, and I'm gonna talk talk about you in a second, like, your ability to share information, to chunk stuff together, to tie emotion into it, to bring to life how we do things around here, to create shared mental models. You know, people have the values on the wall, but actually, it's the stories that tell us, like, how they play out in day to day life. And I was, on version one of this pod, I was just thinking about how we ended up speaking about it, but I I don't know if you remember at Worcester. And now they're back in the championship. You shared with the team, and I that kind of story of Tyler Grange. And I told you you had to be used to objects.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:28]:
And you had one that was a black notebook, and you'd had and now TG's at a 20. Yeah. You were like, never go above 20. Yeah. You've written that note down because you were like, I I wanna make sure, like, we we and and then the second one was the you had a a print that where your kids had put their handprints on with with paint, and you'd used it because you were living downstairs in the police station. That was the first office. And so everyone had taken home a whatever they're called. And and

Simon Ursell [00:44:57]:
and canvas. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:44:59]:
Banvas and created their own art. And so those two stories, again, like, I've had a lot of bullet point lists over the last few years, and I don't remember as many bullet point lists as I do stories.

Simon Ursell [00:45:10]:
Yeah. Sure. Well, we are actually I mean, Claire says I don't know where she's got this fact from, but we're genetically

Rusty Earnshaw [00:45:17]:
Just quote her. Just quote her. Well,

Simon Ursell [00:45:18]:
she's we're genetically programmed to tell stories, and it's how we communicate. You know, we didn't have writing. That's that's a fairly recent part of human evolution. But most of our knowledge was communicated via stories. So our brains have evolved to tell and receive stories. So if you want someone to like you've just beautifully demonstrated there, if you want somebody to understand something, if you tell them a story, they will remember it. Claire gave me a story about the four day week about a a guru and a and a cat, which I which I will tell people if they message me. It's a brilliant story to help people understand what a what a four day week's all about.

Simon Ursell [00:45:57]:
And it uses a there's a very, very specific and different part of your brain that switches on when you're telling or receiving a story, which is that's just mind blowing in and of itself. You know, stick someone in an MRI scanner and tell them a story. There's a very specific part of their brain that works, and it only works when you're doing that. So we've evolved to receive and disperse information via stories. So if you're a leader, which is, you know, what what we're aiming this at, and you wanna be resilient, and you're not trying to get good at telling stories, you're doing yourself a disservice. It's massive. Like I say, I'm obsessed with it at the moment. And I'm working with with someone who's way better than me at it, called Claire Murphy.

Simon Ursell [00:46:42]:
She is unbelievably great at it. And she's I'm gonna help my I'm gonna work really hard to get better at telling stories because it'll help you be a better coach.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:46:50]:
Do you reckon he could do justice to the guru and the cat in thirty seconds?

Simon Ursell [00:46:54]:
Go on then. Okay. So there's a guru take yourself shut your eyes. You gotta close your eyes. Take yourself back a thousand years, two thousand years to a monastery in Tibet. There's a there's 20 monks, and there's a guru, and they're practicing mindfulness. And that well, they're trying to, and there's a little kitten wandering around, black and white kitten, walking around and disturbing them. They can't get into their mindful state because this kitten's too damn cute.

Simon Ursell [00:47:21]:
The guru realizes this, so he ties the cat up to a pillar. Then, they do this every morning. The cat's there. They tie it up to a pillar. And this happens day after day, week after week, month after month. Sadly, after a number of years, the guru passes away. And as a new guru, one of the monks, one of his disciples becomes the new guru, and he gets in before before practice, he ties the cat up. Then sadly, the cat the kitten becomes a cat, the cat passes away.

Simon Ursell [00:47:48]:
So he goes down to this beautiful village, walks around looking for other cats, finds another cat, not exactly the same but similar, brings it back to the monastery, ties it up. This goes on. There's more gurus, more cats, disciples go off around the world. Hundreds, thousands of other monasteries start tying cats up before practice. Then there's a massive conference of monks to decide the spiritual significance of tying up a cat. And there is no significance. It it just tied it up. And that's what a five day week is.

Simon Ursell [00:48:22]:
We're only doing it because it's a it's a, it's something we've always done. It's a habit. And if you think about a four day week, it's just a it's just a different way of working. Why do people get so scared and frightened of it? It makes them angry when you talk about changing from five to four days, and that's because they're scared of the change. Think about what is the best way for your organization to work and do that because a five day week nine to five is a guru's cat. There you go. That's the story.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:48:50]:
I can see lots of people around the country with signs of going, free the cat. Free the cat. Free the cat. Stop the cat.

Simon Ursell [00:48:59]:
Well, they let the cat go after they practice. They get tied up all day. It's just what just for a half an hour. But it's a

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:06]:
Makes sense.

Simon Ursell [00:49:06]:
But Claire gave me that story. It's a very, very ancient story. That story is thousands and thousands and thousands of years old. So it's a very, very old story. And it's a story designed to help you understand that routine and being stuck in a way of thinking is not good for you.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:23]:
Yeah. I mean, George Ford moved from a six to a five, didn't he? None of us are crying out for a six day week at this moment in time, are we? Please, let's go back to it. It will be so good. Henry Ford,

Simon Ursell [00:49:31]:
not George Ford. George.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:49:32]:
Henry Ford. George. Not George Ford. George Ford was so good at kicking, dropkicks and conversions against Argentina that they let him move from some six day week to a five day week.

Simon Ursell [00:49:43]:
Yeah. There we go. Because he would say damn good at it. But, yeah, story that is a story that helps people understand. And I tell that story when I go to conferences and things and speak about, four day week. And the lovely thing is people people will come up like you did with the, book and, and the painting. People will come up to me months and months and months after. In fact, there's a guy launching a book.

Simon Ursell [00:50:07]:
I think it's going out in the next few days in Canada, and he's writing The Guru's Cat. It's it's a it's a, story about the four day week, and there's there's a whole chapter on the Giri's cat, which because I told him the story. How cool is that?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:20]:
Yeah. That's very cool. Very cool. I'm mindful of our time. And when we did version one of this pod, we spoke about adolescence. So should we leave it to the next one?

Simon Ursell [00:50:30]:
Yeah. We can leave it to the next one. Yeah. Because that's a really deep, big prod prod prod

Rusty Earnshaw [00:50:34]:
prod prod prod. Yeah. You you got, like you were you were alive on on adolescence. You were like.

Simon Ursell [00:50:40]:
Yeah. I I think it's a wonderful, wonderful show. And just as a teaser for next time, I think, and I don't know what other people and I'd love to know other people think about this. I'm really struggling with the phrase toxic masculinity because what that says is because you're a man, you're toxic. And I think young people, young men, young boys being labelled as toxic is really unhelpful for them. I'm not saying adolescents did that, but it provoked that kind of, there's quite a lot of dialogue around that. Men are bad because of social media, therefore, you are bad as because you are masculine. And I think if we could reframe masculinity and use it for strength and power to protect and to help and nurture, I think masculinity could become a a wonderful thing, not a toxic thing.

Simon Ursell [00:51:30]:
So, yeah, I'd I was struggling a little bit with that, and I've got but I've got some ideas, around how I might help people with masculinity. And because I think it's a positive force. It's just a force, isn't it? You can use it for good or bad.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:45]:
Is it golf trips to Portugal?

Simon Ursell [00:51:47]:
It might be. That may be part of it, Rusty. Maybe part of it.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:51]:
Nice. I like, I like the way we've boxed it. We've we've teed people up with a little teaser

Simon Ursell [00:51:56]:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:51:57]:
For the next one.

Simon Ursell [00:51:57]:
Yeah. But there's yes. So there's some cool stuff going on. And I know you're doing some Luke Doherty's thing. I mean, man, he's doing some cool stuff with this. So yeah. Definitely wanna talk about that next time. And, maybe I'll I'll ask a few people who are better than me what they think and report back.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:20]:
Yeah. Amazing. I look forward to it.

Simon Ursell [00:52:22]:
Alright. Good to speak to you, buddy. And I did press record to thank the Lord.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:26]:
And for now. Thanks so much for joining us on Advanced MacMillan podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you wanna reach out to us, Simon, where can they reach you?

Simon Ursell [00:52:37]:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursell, u r s for sugar, e double l. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:43]:
TikTok? No. Not really. LinkedIn, Ross Blanchard. And then the same on Twitter, but please, ignore all my political thoughts.

Simon Ursell [00:52:51]:
Yeah. Second that.

Rusty Earnshaw [00:52:52]:
Over and out.