From Setback to Strength: Sam Leeming on Resilience, Recovery & Reinvention | Episode 27

In this episode, Simon and Rusty talk with former professional rugby player, cancer ‘thriver’, and human-first performance coach, Sam Leeming.

Sam’s rugby journey began with Newcastle Falcons and flourished at Hartpury University, where he earned a BSc in Sport Performance, multiple England Students caps, and a professional contract. But at just 23, his career was suddenly put on hold when he was diagnosed with non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma. After undergoing intensive chemotherapy, Sam made an inspiring return to professional rugby, a testament to his resilience, discipline, and deep self-awareness.

Forced to retire at 25 due to concussion-related injuries, Sam has since dedicated himself to high-performance coaching, helping others unlock performance through a human-first lens.

The conversation explores pushing limits, reframing trauma, and the power of play, intention, and integrity. Most importantly, Sam’s story is a compelling reminder of how having the right mindset can foster resilience and self-awareness, and as in his case, turn adversity into strength and purpose.

Find out more about Sam’s journey and connect with him here:

Instagram: @samleeming10

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/sam-leeming-b55550109/

Website: https://samleemingperformance.com

In this episode:

00:00:00 – Introduction to Sam Leeming: Simon and Rusty set the tone for a conversation on resilience, introducing Sam’s journey through major life challenges.

00:03:44 – Sam’s Early Setbacks: Sam shares how recurring injuries and internal pressure impacted his rugby career and self-worth.

00:05:54 – Cancer & Recovery Journey: At 23, Sam faces non-Hodgkin’s lymphoma, undergoes chemo, and makes a powerful return to rugby, balancing mental and physical struggles.

00:08:25 – Family’s Role: Sam highlights the impact of his dad’s tough but supportive love in shaping his resilience.

00:14:03 – Pushing Past the Limit: His “never enough” mindset led to overexertion, including a seizure during cancer, teaching him the value of rest.

00:16:19 – Power of Vulnerability: Sharing his emotional journey created deeper connections and redefined vulnerability as strength.

00:21:49 – Choice & Mindset after Trauma: Sam reflects on using trauma as fuel for growth, not a limiting identity.

00:26:14 – Coaching & Helping Others: Now a performance coach, Sam draws on his story to help high performers shift mindset and improve mental skills.

00:32:08 – Tools for Performance: Talks practical tools like intention-setting, self-awareness, and integrity that guide both his past and current work.

00:41:04 – Recovery & Playfulness: Emphasizes world-class recovery and playful habits as keys to sustainable performance and well-being.

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

Simon Ursell:
Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability Podcast, the podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks, and challenges.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Hope you enjoy the pod.

Simon Ursell:
Looking forward to it. Listen on. Welcome to the Bounce Backability Podcast, Rusty. We've got Sam coming on and I don't know a lot about this one again, so I'm slightly nervous.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah. Keep it secret from you again, incredible story. A couple of pretty significant bumps in the road. And probably a third significant bump is he may look like he's been kidnapped today, because I know he's moved into a new house.

Simon Ursell:
Okay.

Rusty Earnshaw:
And there's unlikely to be much decoration on the walls, so it may be. We may be confusing him with someone who's been taken hostage.

Simon Ursell:
Okay. Okay. Well, let's. Let's get him on and Because I'm really intrigued now, let's get him on. Welcome to the podcast, Rusty. Who've we got on today?

Rusty Earnshaw:
We got some leaving on today. I love the way that you've, like, just forced the start of the podcast on me. We're just trying to have a bit of crack there about Sam being taken hostage and can he, like, blink twice if he needs us to come and help him and all that type of stuff. And you just suddenly.

Simon Ursell:
Well, just as a bit of context, Sam is sat in a room with. I mean, he's just moved house, so I think we're being a bit mean here. But he's in a room and it does look somewhat like he's in a hostage situation. It's like a blank box.

Sam Leeming:
I assume this isn't on video either.

Simon Ursell:
No, it's not on video, but no. You're all good.

Sam Leeming:
Yeah. Look, there you go.

Simon Ursell:
He's got a picture. He's holding a picture on the wall. Yeah. Good night. There we go. That's better.

Simon Ursell:
The. The kidnappers have gone. Hold the picture up. And then I was just explaining to Sam that. And I'm recommending it to lots of people, but Stutz on Netflix, which is Jonah Hill with his therapist, is. Is a beautiful hour and a bit of television.

Simon Ursell:
Very good you recommended to me, and I watched it. It's excellent. I mean, somebody. I see a counselor once a week, and as you know, I do lots of therapy, so it felt kind of familiar, but it was a. It was one of the most authentic videos about someone saying therapist I think I've ever seen. It was. It's genuinely good stats, isn't it? It's S, T U T Z. Isn't it? Is that right?

Rusty Earnshaw:
It is. And I've just. And I'VE started cracking loads of cards.

Simon Ursell:
Have you?

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah, of course you have off coaches. So.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, his therapist is good, isn't he? Yeah, he's, he's, he's very good. Anyway, we should let Sam speak anyway.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Sam Leeming, ex rugby player, currently a hostage. Had some, had some, had some bumps along the way. Let's say we were connected. I don't know like, was it this year or last year or.

Sam Leeming:
I think I slipped into your DMs.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Didn'T I, in recent times? Yeah, well, did you slip into my DMs and then obviously like I've chatted to you and like your mindset around lots of stuff is super interesting to me and this podcast is about bounce backability and you're way too young to know that in the soccer am in the 90s where they reference that as a, as a concept and yeah, I guess you've had a couple of really big bumps that you bounce back from and yeah, I just, I'm fascinated by your mindset around it. So that's why we've got him on. Simon, the last time I surprised you with a guest was. Was Big Dave from the army and yeah shocked you a little bit. So hopefully Sam's not going to be quite that bad.

Simon Ursell:
No, I'm slightly nervous after that one. Although that was an incredible story. So no pressure. Sam. Well, do you want to share a little bit about. I mean I'm really intrigued now. So I mean, I don't know how much you want to share, but do you want to give us a little sort of flavor for some of the bumps you've had?

Sam Leeming:
Yeah, yeah, I'm prepared to go. Yeah. All in, I think.

Simon Ursell:
Awesome.

Sam Leeming:
Recent, recent times I've learned the sort of the power in telling my story and yeah, really using it, I suppose a lot of injuries when I was younger, always struggled through injuries and I suppose since uncovering that and reflecting back on a rugby career that finished at 25, mindset stuff definitely was part of that and after reading Johnny Wilkinson's book it was more is better, more is more. Never felt like I was good enough, never felt like I was doing enough to achieve my dream of playing pro rugby. So a lot of injuries in the operations and a lot of groin issues. And then when I was 23 I got diagnosed with non Hodgkin's lymphoma, which I just signed for Jersey Reds and amongst Covid and entry for asthma went from being the fittest in the majority of teams that I played in to my actually my brother Was started beating me on the off season fitness we were doing and I was like, I'm either really unfit and had one too many pizzas in the off season, or there's something up here that meant, yeah, I found it. Found a quite a sizable tumor in my chest and after six rounds of chemotherapy, all the treatment was successful and got back to playing professional rugby in amongst a history of concussions throughout from when I was 20. So in a relatively short space of time, four or five years, I had eight sort of recorded concussions which took me, always took me a while to. To recover from symptoms lingered around. It's pretty confusing and pretty frustrating for me with, yeah, 80 of those concussions being ruby incidences, that part of the sport played in Australia and France and Sevens and Amsterdam and in South Africa, which is absolutely loved how I used rugby to travel and to have new experiences.

Sam Leeming:
And ultimately all those experiences and having sort of a mindset to go out and explore has meant that as my career was cut short for what you expect a rugby career to be, it's landed me with a hell of a lot of life experience that I can relate to a lot of humans and that's part of my service and human performance today. So there's a few bumps, but yeah, I really enjoy sharing it and really leaning into it because I know it's so unique and sharing it as I share it, it gives other people to look inwardly as well, which I parked under the carpet for many, many years and it caused a lot of internal stress for me. And yeah, so there's. There's my bumps.

Simon Ursell:
Wow, that's a hell of a story. I mean, that is. That's a. That's a lot to have to deal with. How old are you now, if you don't mind me asking?

Sam Leeming:
27.

Simon Ursell:
27. Wow. That's a lot of life for 27 years old, isn't it?

Sam Leeming:
Yeah, yeah. Well, it's funny like when, when I got back to Jersey and speaking to the coaches there and Ed Robinson had just left, but we were speaking about how because of injuries and I'd missed with a knee complication operation times two, I'd missed a year and another sort of six months and then a year for chemotherapy as well. So it meant that I was actually really excited. I'm sort of 24 years old where as a fly half, you know, you'd have wanted a lot of game time on your belt. Managing games and learning my craft, I didn't feel 24, I felt about 21, you know, and that was really exciting to me, you know, and physically I felt. Felt great and unfortunately a few sort of, yeah, injuries got in the way but yeah, it didn't feel like. I don't feel like 27. You know, I think obviously with age, as you get older it says has certain connotations with however you view it.

Sam Leeming:
But yeah, I certainly don't feel.

Simon Ursell:
What are you trying to say? Me and Rusty are getting on a bit or something. It's the bald heads, I guess.

Sam Leeming:
Not at all. Well, I'm not far off but I think, yeah, chemotherapy got me good on the front here. So yeah, relatively short now. Yeah.

Simon Ursell:
So in terms of then, you know, because this, the podcast about bounce back ability, Chad, that's some serious challenges you have to deal with. What do you put down, you know, the journey you've been on, where you are now. What sort of things have helped you on your way?

Sam Leeming:
Well, first thing that comes to mind is like my family felt so supported and often I've had sort of reflected and had the conversation about where I got my belief from and you know, always fairly sporty and it was rugby, cricket and cross country athletics and stuff. And I definitely think that the way my dad language he used to and his involvement in growing up and having his. Him as a role model certainly is to blame for some of my drive and hard workingness. So I definitely say my parents being a massive influence and my brother as well who actually found sort of weight training and sort of experiencing what it meant to. To push his body and to put his. Push his mind relatively like late on and that's been really great to see him. He competes in CrossFit and he's now doing ultramarathons and yeah, so the first thing is my family definitely.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw:
What did you do? What was it that your dad did?

Sam Leeming:
Some of his language, some of his just directed directness and it sounds so simple to say but one, whenever, whenever this topic comes up, I always think he took me down. I was part of like the local harriers and when I was maybe 14, maybe 13. 14 like from the 800 meters, like the county or like trying to get into the county team and going down on like a cold like Tuesday or Thursday night after school and I wanted no, no part of it. It was similar to cricket nets actually. Like the mundaneness, the. It wasn't very exciting to me compared to rugby where I'd have the ball in my hands all the time and a couple of things just stand out about, you know, doing the graph now. You feel great after and this simple thing, you, like, dig in and. Because I didn't quite got to stage in races or, or where I'd be pushing myself and just found myself, you know, tired and blowing and it just didn't seem, when I was younger, looking back, didn't seem to have that kind of off switch.

Sam Leeming:
I didn't, didn't really toy with the idea of like, stopping or like. Or slowing up a little bit. We're in those running races where, like, lacty acids thrown on my legs and that, you know, when my dad would be saying that, it really was afterwards, it was just an unbelievable sense of euphoria and like, relief, but. But also like that sense of achievement which I think he probably. He embodied himself and how he spoke to me and how he took me to. To rugby and cricket and all the rest of it.

Rusty Earnshaw:
I. I went for dinner with a famous footballer's dad recently. I won't mention his name, but it's one of the best footballers in the world. And his dad did say to him about, like, we'll take you as long as you work hard. We don't care about anything else, but if I see you're not working hard, I'm not going to take you anymore. And just that kind of. This is those kind of standards from an early age of actually just controlling efforts and those things. Which is interesting because one of the things I remember you speaking a lot about is like finding peace and, and the off switch and pausing and actually, yeah, I'm just.

Rusty Earnshaw:
I guess I'm curious about that. I'm super curious because I'm sure it's the same for you, Simon, like, whenever you're with a group of people that are going through a lot of stuff and you be working with businesses and individuals, all of us will be. And that just that pause where they get to sit with you for a little bit and maybe think and is. Is often super helpful. So I would. Is that something that's, you know, this off switch, is that something you've developed and is it something you're trying to develop in others?

Sam Leeming:
Yeah, definitely. I think young people, there's not as much value in it. I suppose slowing down and listening to my body was something that I didn't have sort of understanding in. It was always as I pushed it or, or lift lifted heavier or run faster when everyone else. And I suppose when you see people dropping off and like, actually felt, oh, wow, definitely, you know, in terms of genetics or the, the nature side of it, definitely there's something there which, which I'm grateful for, but when you see other people dropping off and actually I could like, let's see. It was always like, let's see how far. Like, let's see how much I can push it. And one of my biggest lessons was from when I got diagnosed to actually when I had my first run of chemotherapy.

Sam Leeming:
That's a whole process of diagnosis and taking a biopsy and everything. And, and with my tumor, I couldn't feel it, I couldn't see it, I couldn't sense it. And the only indicator was when I'd be going upstairs so my heart rate would be higher because it was, it was sort of a brick size. It was pushing down on my heart, pushing down on my lungs. And that's really difficult to kind of like understand that something is immediate. It's really restricting me. And I ended up wanting just like, and have these tests sort of the next week and did a dog walk in the morning, felt pretty fine and did a dog walk in the afternoon, thought nothing of it and ended up having a seizure and collapsing on my bathroom floor on the evening. And that, yeah, my dad, sort of.

Sam Leeming:
When you're having seizure on the floor and your dad's putting broken up aspirin into your mouth, that's a pretty good sign that you probably pushed it a little bit too far. Um, so that, that, that was a big lesson for me. And I think, I think with, with learning when, when's the limit, it's probably one of those things where you have, you have to. Maybe not under my circumstances, but you have to see how far you can get to then, to, to then know. Because it's like, well, how, how do I relate to myself when I know that I could go and kick even though my groin's really, really sore? Like I could go and get some, some benefit here, but, but it comes with experience, I guess, and learning when's enough. And a big underlying belief like within that for me is never feeling like I always, always felt I had to earn my rest. I had to train so hard. Then I could earn.

Sam Leeming:
To sit on the couch and watch, watch the TV or earn me eating the amount of food that I wanted to eat because that's what I felt I needed to have to recover the best and, and be strong and fit that I knew I needed to be to play professional rugby and be resilient. So that was a big belief for me which, which definitely served me very well, but definitely something that I've discovered and it's something that I can, I can sort of through speaking to people and speaking about what they'd like more of and what they'd like less of, it becomes pretty clear if they're coming from a place where they feel that they lack something compared to when they come from rock solid foundations, that they're complete and they want to go improve and get better at certain things. So, yeah, that's a. That's a big learning for me. That nearly cost me my life.

Simon Ursell:
Wow, that sounds pretty tough. I mean, that's a. How did your dad deal with that?

Sam Leeming:
My dad. In classic fashion, it would be a lot of under the carpet. And when we've had some. We've had some pretty special moments since. Throughout the whole process of having cancer and chemotherapy. That word held such weight to me. And it was like. Almost had this kind of like disgusting feel to it in terms of.

Sam Leeming:
It wasn't. It's not a nice thing, you know, but then when you're in it, like you have it and through. I found very, very early on that through accepting of it allowed my body to recover quicker because I was able to manage stress better. I was able to control the controllables. And I didn't speak about it probably for two years after me finishing chemotherapy. I didn't speak about it. I didn't. I didn't open up conversations to people.

Sam Leeming:
People didn't know how to speak about it with me. And it was really confusing because I just wanted to be treated normal. Like it, you know, not like nothing had happened, but like I was fine afterwards. You know, I felt great. There was nothing underlying. I had thinner hair, but that was about it, like genuinely. And so there's been a few moments with certain family members passing away and some grief and how I relate to my. Both my parents where, you know, I didn't.

Sam Leeming:
I wouldn't cry in front of my mum, really. Cancer and crying in front of her when I got diagnosed was my first scary moment of being vulnerable in front of, you know, the people who know me knowing the best in this world. So that was a. That's been really, really amazing for me to connect with my dad in a different way. That's open, opened me up and that, that's my responsibility, you know, I feel like opening that open. Like I said before, I can't remember what it was, but as I sort of take that stand and open myself up, it kind of gives other people the space to do so as well. And that's been really beautiful for, for not only my dad, but my best mate who I'm living with, my brother, my dad and my mum and others as well.

Simon Ursell:
So you're pretty free and open about sharing about it. That's. And that's, that's a part of, you know, that's your choice. You know, how much shares your. Is your choice, isn't it? So. And you, you find that something that's helping you.

Sam Leeming:
Definitely. I, I sort of believe that the more you resist something, the more it persists. And when I. Throughout, throughout the injuries and stress and concussion, you know, like, definitely my symptoms of concussion were induced by myself, my own thinking, because it was. Why me? I did this, this and this. And it was just a lot of frustration. And that's only created by my own thinking. And as I share and as I continue to be vulnerable about it, there's only strength in that.

Sam Leeming:
You know, I just see it when, when, when someone, when someone also does the same or expresses emotion. I'm just like, that's, that's like absolutely awesome. Especially, especially if it's a male, you know, and I've really, I've really experienced that the last few years through, through friendship groups and, and parents actually like parents of mates as well, you know, because the other thing is like cancer affects one in four, right? And the amount of people who maybe have had it or know someone's had it or a parent has had it, like, is absolutely everywhere. And it's similar to like. And often want to hear Simon, I've got talking is whatever. I love it because it's like we're, we're as humans, we're built to survive and procreate, but like, no one talks about like the power of our sexual drive. Like it's taboo, right? And. And everyone kind of like clenches up because it's like, oh, you can't talk about that or you can't bring that to the table or whatever.

Sam Leeming:
And it's the same with cancer. Like, it's literally, you know, look in the street. There's the people who've had it is absolutely everywhere. And for a lot of people, that might be uncomfortable, but I certainly, because of my experiences, it's almost. I feel responsible to. In my realm and you guys involved in that as well. But to. I'd love for people to, to find confidence and to be able to express themselves more, you know, and that's through vulnerability and through experimentation.

Sam Leeming:
So it's all linked and I'm using it. I love that flipped it around from cancer survivor to cancer thriver. That's pretty fun.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah. So that's really interesting. So my son had cancer when he was 14, got diagnosed two, given two weeks to do and we didn't know he wasn't going to die for three months because they didn't tell us, which was pretty, pretty tough. He's fine now. Cancer thriver is so true. I talk about it a lot too. So does he. And you're right, it is very to be.

Simon Ursell:
Doesn't really get spoken about but as soon as you start sharing the story, everybody starts sharing it back like I've just done. You get that lovely connection there. And he speaks about it as almost like having a superpower as a, as a something that's helped him be the person he is now. But also he's been through stuff that other people, unlike somebody like you, I can't really imagine. And it does give you a hell of a lot of strength. Isn't there a stat around multiple. I mean Rusty, you might know this and I might have this wrong. I think it may be Suzanne told me this, Suzanne Brown, that there's 90% of multiple gold winning Olympians have been through a life changing event as in major illness or tragedy or something like that.

Simon Ursell:
There's something about going through and coming out the other side of an experience like that that gives you just this most unbelievable mental strength. Not that you're stronger than other people necessarily, but it just helps you cope with it. Does that resonate at all with you?

Sam Leeming:
Yeah, for sure, for sure. It'd be great, wouldn't it, that people could find a certain level of mental strength and resilience and toughness without doing it. But it's so true. Um, there is, I like the one. It's like pain is inevitable, suffering is optional. And like in life you are going to experience some kind of trauma or loss of family. There's, there's, there's going to be something, right? And the suffering part is how you relate to that. There's a.

Sam Leeming:
Then if you familiar with the book, the Courage to be Disliked. But in that book it's a different sort of psychology called the Adlerian psychology. And this is not necessarily true, but it's an idea that's really helped me is like trauma is a, is an idea, you know. And I believe that we have the power to define our present. Our past doesn't define our present, but we can in the present can define our past. Like we can relate and we can make what happened to us, which is simply a memory. We can make it how we want. Hence driver or survivor.

Sam Leeming:
You can choose to be a victim of it or you can choose to Own it and use it. And through that you can, you know, you're empowered, you're liberated, regardless of what's happened. And that's not. I'm an incredibly privileged white male. I'm very aware of that. And even going into a cancer ward where even going in there, I had a head start in front of other people because of my level of fitness and the amount of chemotherapy my body could take. And I'm very aware of that. And I know that people aren't as privileged financially and health wise, but for me, that, that's, that's really helped.

Sam Leeming:
So for me to share that. Yeah, is. That's something that helped me.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah. I mean, you're not privileged. I mean, I guess your background's pretty privileged, but you're not privileged. It's. It's interesting to explain those kinds of things, isn't it? That, that's, you know. Yeah. Your body was able to take it and. Yeah, you're grateful for that.

Simon Ursell:
I completely understand. But I think, you know, you've been through a pretty serious set of events, haven't you? I mean, you know, I don't care how privileged you are. That's tough.

Sam Leeming:
Yeah. What. It's, it's, yeah, it's what context you use. Like. Simon, I was in a chemotherapy ward where there be warning sirens going off because someone's heart rate dropped below. And one of the most confusing moments for me where a group of ladies who were having chemotherapy and hooked up to the IV drips, it was in Covid, so you couldn't have visitors to stay in the ward. It was very restrictive, the movement. In or out? In and out.

Sam Leeming:
Because obviously we're all immunosuppressed and it's really important. If we got Covid, it would be really, really devastating. And they were arguing with the nurse about going out to have a smoking break in a chemotherapy ward.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah.

Sam Leeming:
And so I'm there doing my corridor walks because I can. Yeah, that's privilege to me.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, no, I completely hear that. That's. That is privilege. That's genuine privilege. Yeah.

Sam Leeming:
And the, the amount of support I had, my. My mum was dropping off. My parents were, were dropping off freshly roasted vegetables and fresh meat and, and meals. So I didn't have to have the majority of the hostel food, you know, and they were driving from Middlesbrough to Darlo and back and the, the Jersey pay my wages up until Christmas, you know, and that when, when I have that kind of support and I can go home and my, my parents, you know, they work from home, you know, Even, even that's a privilege. So yeah, I definitely feel a certain kind of responsibility to, to give back. And you know, part of that is sharing my story, you know, and, and, and helping others, which I feel even it's relatable to a lot of people to say like retiring from Rogue at 25 is a gift. But I tell you what guys, I'm having so much fun helping others. You know, it's just been, it's so rewarding and not, not from the financial perspective, but to give my attention to other people in, in the way I do is.

Sam Leeming:
That's another privilege that I know I have.

Simon Ursell:
Wow. I mean it is incredible. So, so what, what are you, what are you helping other people with? So what, what, what is your, what are your words taken from this incredible experience that you've had the able to share.

Sam Leeming:
So I'm a human first performance coach, so I work with mental skills for high performance. To me, toss. I'm a coach so I help people uncover more of what they want and experience less of what they don't want.

Simon Ursell:
Give us some examples. Going to put you on spot now. Test your mental performance a lot.

Sam Leeming:
Well, a big thing for me was I found that the majority of rugby teams that I played in, the majority of players would play from a place of fear. Now that works and that's really useful. But I played in the English Championship where we're not getting paid a lot of money and it's not all glam and got to my dream of playing professional rugby and the majority of boys are complaining. And that was really interesting to me. And as I started inquiring more about myself and, and how I operated and how I wanted to improve and had experience with sports psychologists started discovering this. You know, well, you can, you can use fear or be used by it. And how you relate to fear is. It's an emotion, it's a feeling, it's something innate within, within us.

Sam Leeming:
And if it's innate within us, then you know, there's an opportunity, there's a possibility for it to be empowering to us rather than suffocate us, which it did for most of my career in between when I was actually on the field. Fit, fit and healthy. So the, the, the relationship people have with fear and obviously fear manifests with, with doubt and negative self talk and it can, it can really hinder people and what they want to go and do in their performances and how they want to express themselves. That'd be one area where I can, I can explore with somebody if they want to if they've more often than not, they've. They've ticked off the physical, they've ticked off the. The. The professionals that established. And we know that as you reach higher on that mastery curve, as it were, and then how you're thinking, it's incredibly important.

Sam Leeming:
And the majority of people haven't committed and discovered better ways of thinking to empower and liberate themselves.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, because just an emotion, isn't it? Fear. It's how you choose to. How you choose to interact with this telling. It's good information fear, isn't it? And how you. How you relate to the information is how you relate to the information. And you can choose how to do that if you train yourself.

Sam Leeming:
That's it exactly. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw:
If I can use the Stutz framework of. I think you've described pretty well. So he's got a triangle around life. At the bottom is his body. So you spoke about that. You spoke about listening to my body and I guess sleep and diet and fitness and all those things. It was interesting, isn't it? When you needed to most you. You might not have been able to hear the signs from your body.

Rusty Earnshaw:
The second thing is people. So he then go the next level is people. So your relationship with your family and your friends and the people that helped you through this obviously super important around these critical moments. And the last bit you've got onto is yourself. And again, I'm going to ask you a question in a second. And my experience is that people aren't thinking about as you describe that, like, where do I go and who am I under pressure? You know, what are the things that are, you know, little monsters that have become very big monsters in my head that are stopping me doing things. Who am I at my best? What is. What are the conditions that set me up to be my best? Like so that yourself bit.

Rusty Earnshaw:
I'm curious you now like go back to. To Sam reading Johnny Wilkins's autobiography, which is probably quite unhelpful for you, if I'm honest. I know Johnny has since apologized about it. In environments perhaps where people aren't perhaps creating bigger monsters in your head than actually existed in your head when you started playing the game. I'm just curious, what are the two or three things Simon's looking for Johnny Wilkinson's Orbach from that show.

Simon Ursell:
I've got Lewis Moody and Dan Carter out there, but not Johnny Wilkinson.

Rusty Earnshaw:
That's fine, that's fine. Johnny's. Then you'd be in trouble. What are the two or three things that. That you do now that you go how do you hell that would have helped me back then? Because I'm assuming it would help you. I'm assuming if you go back in time with the. With the brain stuff you've got now the slightly.

Simon Ursell:
You know, the brain. The brain stuff. Is that a scientific.

Rusty Earnshaw:
You might be. You might be an even better rugby player.

Sam Leeming:
For me first thing comes to mind is awareness. Because awareness allows emotional regulation. It's not the doing, it's just the. The moment of reflection. That's the slowing down bit. Rusty. Right. That's the.

Sam Leeming:
The pause and that quote from Victor Frankel. Teeny stimulus and response. There's a gap and in that gap and. And lies our freedom. There you are, Simon. Thank you. I didn't forget it. I was.

Sam Leeming:
I was moving on.

Rusty Earnshaw:
But yeah, Simon's now finishing his senses.

Simon Ursell:
I'm into this stuff. Rusty. Frank was a cool guy.

Rusty Earnshaw:
I've been trying to help some kids with which was that Tiger woods would allow himself to be frustrated for five steps. I think that's a good way of separating stimulus and response and finding freedom. Simon added so beautifully cool. So awareness.

Simon Ursell:
That's Frankel. That's not me, mate. I'm not taking credit for that. He's a genius.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Man's search for meaning. If you've not read it. Someone stolen my name around the regulation called secondary. Second thing.

Sam Leeming:
And this is things now that I know that would have helped me then.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yes.

Sam Leeming:
Like intention setting got to a point where I just be. It'd be looking back now. It was so kind of headless and it was very confusing what I was going into games with or listening to what that coach is saying and then this coach is saying and going into kicking sessions and just not even creating what I wanted out of the session. So creating intentions for not not only the training I was going to do but like the player that I wanted to express myself as because I. Because I sort of point difference or a part of my game was my kicking. That's what teams all. That's all they wanted me to do and obviously contracts and you want to impress. Impress them and you do what they want to do.

Sam Leeming:
And then I end up like going through games and I've passed the ball three times and I'm like what the. Is going on here? You know bring intention would have really given me an anchor about what I wanted to get out of my training and the doing part. So maybe that links nicely with the awareness.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah, that's my card. That's the ticket. I think players or leaders should Turn up with attention around. This is the, this is my attention day. This is what I'm trying to get better at. This is the. And, and you know, as, as you would use a coach. And, and, and this is how the coach can help me.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah. Justin Reuter, the, the Air Force general we've had on the pod he talks about. That phrase for leaders is an incredibly powerful one. My intention is this is, this is what we're intending to do rather than I want you to do this. My intention is that we're going to do this. It's an incredibly powerful way to start a leadership conversation, I think.

Sam Leeming:
And one thing that I've loved recently is that high performers struggle to switch off and allow their bodies to downregulate. And for me, you know, part of performance, if you know how you're eating is performance, how your, your relationships are performance. You know, being a leader's point, being world class at having a shower, world class at watching studs. That, that's your practicing intention. You're practicing being your word because you're making a commitment. And then you, you, you get into the conversation about integrity and doing as you're saying you're going to do. And, and I think that's such gold for, for so many people where I didn't hear that word a lot during my career. And I think it's something like a coach, coach a lot at the moment in my work, which I think is absolutely gold.

Rusty Earnshaw:
I think you spoke about it was like integrity and accountability or something like that was your two words you used together. What were those the two words?

Sam Leeming:
Or was it just what just now it would be commitment. Integrity. That commitment. Integrity.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Commitment and integrity.

Sam Leeming:
Yes. Yeah.

Rusty Earnshaw:
And what do you mean by that?

Sam Leeming:
Well, when you. It's normal, isn't it? You make a. You. I mean you are with integrity on this call when you're Rusty showing up at five minutes past six.

Simon Ursell:
Well, we weren't stressed about. We're having a nice chat. Sam. We don't mind. Rusty rocked up late.

Sam Leeming:
No, no, it's not the point that someone shows up late. For me it's, it's normal, isn't it, to make a coffee date and someone show up whenever they like. And that's, that's, that's great and it can work. But I think for high perform, you want to be a high performer. And being a high performer in a team, your word has, has power. And when you create times and it doesn't happen in your word loses power. It's like a muscle. You want to you want to practice being your word, your word gets stronger and that actually has a direct correlation when the pressure is on, on a game day and some of those doubts pop up from the ego and then you've got a really strong commitment and you've practiced being your word.

Sam Leeming:
When you create that intention that has power like that is the possibility you open for yourself. I am confident and thrive in these situations that become, that declaration becomes huge and powerful rather than just like oh yeah, I'll meet you at 10am and then you're there and you're, you're putting on your shoes at quarter past like so for me it's, it's linked and that's what I love that going back to the intention is that one of my do like a Monday intention for my clients and one of them was like where you, where are you committing this week? To chill the out and there's some brilliant, you know, go for ice cream with my mate or like watching a TV program and it's like everyone, I think it almost gets like the, the, the, the game they gets put on a pedestal right naturally, you know. But what like you're there for 90, 90 minutes in a whole week. What are you doing for the rest of the time? You're not training for all that time, you know. And, and that's, that's, that's my perspective on. Well if you can actually, if you can get, get committed to being peaceful, you're also going to recover quicker because your body's in a state of relaxation, you know. So it's all linked. I love that, I love that we're humans and it's.

Sam Leeming:
You're a human going to play rugby or going to express yourself in a 90 minute period rather than I'm, I am rugby player. You know.

Simon Ursell:
That's actually true. I got sent an article by some, I can't remember the name of the professor now but he's developed a, a little pill that goes in your vagus nerve to help regulate the fight flight freeze response because that causes so much inflammation in the body. It's all linked to your. This is what his research suggests. I don't know how true it is but this is what his research suggests. And recover. Learning to recover is possibly one of the most overlooked skills in high performance. So every single person I coach in the business world, without exception just thinking about it now we, I have to put in place some sort of commitment for them to, to do something different because they're just on, on, on, on, on, on and they're just so driven and trying to achieve so much as quickly as they can.

Simon Ursell:
And it's, you know, hustle culture, all that kind of very harmful stuff doesn't lead to high performance and the ability to recover, to rest. I mean I've got one guy who plays on a PlayStation now because that helps him recover. I mean it's not my recovery, but it's his. Going for a walk, spending time with your family, I mean that's the other thing as well. You know, these guys aren't spending time with their family and I'm thinking give it 20 years, you're going to regret that. So you know, go and spend some time, some downtime. And actually the, you can, you can pretty much measure the improvement in their ability to be a leader and run an organization, a business if they do put in that recovery time. And there's something about your body's response to threat and if you're in a leadership role, it's just threat all day, all night, non stop.

Simon Ursell:
Emails, social media, whatever it might be just at you. You've got to find a way to, to calm yourself. That's why I mean I hang out with Luke Doherty. Mindfulness coach. Rusty, you don't like the word mindfulness, do you? Like flow state?

Rusty Earnshaw:
No, but I can, we worked out that I can just switch my mind off. I'm thinking of Alfie Barbary. Bath obviously won the premiership title on Saturday and Alfie Barbary is two days in wearing his Speedos, carrying a Bath flag, looking like he doesn't have a care in the world. And yet on Saturday like he would have played in front of 82,000 people. He's like, it's real, isn't it? Like he's, he's had a, you know, a lot of three finals in, in a few weeks and all that pressure and all that stuff and doesn't surprise me that he's wearing the Speedos, walking around with the flag like he's, he needs to like relax and recover. It's interesting the, the guys that have now gone straight into an England camp or straight to alliance camp and then suddenly they're going to have some stress around selection or deselection or. I do think it's remarkable that some of the player like a marrow is a good example to me he must be brilliant at recovery given you know, how much he plays, the expectation on him, you know, as a captain, as one of the key players. Like it just fascinates me.

Rusty Earnshaw:
If you want to be world class team, you've got to be world class recovery, simple.

Simon Ursell:
What would you do to recover then, Sam? What would you give people? What would it give us? People love practical stuff. So what would be an example? You know, like, I mean, I don't think a PlayStation's good recovery, but. But then it works. So what am I to judge?

Sam Leeming:
One fun one we did was like, what can you do this week? Which makes you feel like a child or that you did when you were a child?

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, there you go.

Sam Leeming:
Then building one of the lads in the USC doing den building with Mrs.

Simon Ursell:
So you went out into the woods or something? Yeah, yeah. That's cool. I like that.

Sam Leeming:
Like again, this, this kind of this child knit, childlike, playful state. You can, you can call it flow state, you can call it unconscious consciousness thoughtlessness that the author Dan Sullivan called it. Like being active is. Sorry, I'm gonna butcher this one as well. He's like, recovery is expansion and then like focus. Yeah, that's it. Focus is contraction and recovery is expansion. And he said that, you know, the goal is, you know, in the performance to, to get into flow.

Sam Leeming:
Right? That's when you, when you access your, your highest, highest form of being. And then if you can get into flow outside of that, you also expand, you know, the best. You know, that's not necessarily true. That's an idea. But, but I can relate to that because when I am on my surfskate or if I am having a great conversation with somebody, then like my body's in a state of like, I'm not stressed, am I not thinking I'm present and the presence brings that for me. Like peace is within the presence. Like you're inherently peaceful when you're present because you're involved in something and the stress is only thinking about what's in the future, what's in the past. So the, the child childlike stuff is just fun, man.

Sam Leeming:
Like got a mate who's just. His thing is like dancing and he's working out ways he can go and like learn how to dance differently and like do in public. And it's just like, it's just fun. I think it's just so many serious people out there which can work, by the way. You know, that's, that's not. Not saying is the worst way to do it.

Simon Ursell:
Connecting with your, connecting with your child self though that is a vi. Very cool way to switch off that because you're not feeling that kind of threat response when you're a child as much. So that's kind of nice. See, I think that's A great place to finish, to be honest. Thanks for coming on, Sam. I'm really, I mean, very, very grateful for sharing your story. Really am.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Really appreciate it. You feel more relaxed having been with Sam?

Simon Ursell:
Sam, yeah, of course I do. He's a lovely guy. I'm pretty relaxed these days. Anyway. Rusty, how about you?

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah, no, I just think that. I just think your peacefulness is. Is contagious, Samuel.

Sam Leeming:
Yeah, people have said that to me recently and it's real funny because I know, I know I've learned to like slow down, you know, because of my body. Because after my concussion, like I'd be getting dizzy walking. So, yes, it forced me to slow down a little bit. And then, you know, as I started doing some more content and social media, my speeches definitely slowed down and that's definitely helped me convey my points more succinctly. And learning French meant that I needed to explain the things that I wanted to in less words when I was converting it to English, whatever. And yeah, I had that feedback recently from. From a friend of a friend. And it's funny, it's like because.

Sam Leeming:
Because I'm embodying that, you know, like how I create myself in the morning and I commit to like I am peace and the child is thing is like I am that shine as a child does playing and exploring and that's just like such an anchor for me and it means that I can turn it on and be so direct and similar to like mixed martial arts, you know, like, Jackie Chan's a peaceful person, but he's absolutely ruthless. I really love that dichotomy and the way I'm being within that, you know, and in a world where it is so fast paced and there's so much information and abundance and you should do this and then coach tell you this. There's. Yeah, I mean, it's working for me, guys, so it's. No. Thank you for having me on.

Simon Ursell:
Beautiful. Thanks, buddy.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Well, how you feeling, Simon?

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, I mean, what a story. And again, you know, you ambushed me and. Yeah, that's. That's quite big. And what a guy. I mean, what, 27 having gone through all that stuff and what he's doing now. Yeah, I mean, it's impressive, isn't it? I just, I mean, I sometimes wonder, you know, it's like, I think you can get put on a pedestal when you've been through those. And it's a cliche, you know, I'm really humble, but he's genuinely.

Simon Ursell:
He's humble guy. He's kind of. He's Kind of got his together, isn't he? And he's like, he's doing some pretty, pretty cool stuff, I think. Yeah, I'm very grateful he came on and. Yeah, thanks for, thanks for getting him on the pod because hopefully everybody listening is really getting a lot out of that too, because it was good.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah, well, he demonstrated, didn't he, that if you are vulnerable and humble then, and you share your story, then as you did, other people will share their story as well.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I think when you, when you. Yeah, when, when you share, it gives people permission. I mean, so leadership. It's an absolute leadership hack, isn't it? It's a cheat code. Code for being a leader is being vulnerable and sharing. So, you know, sharing challenges and when you, you've not been at your best just allows people to also be vulnerable and then it gives you the opportunity then to really help them because people put on masks and they, you know, there's all sorts of societal and personal reasons why they don't want to share things, which is cool. You know, you don't make people do that.

Simon Ursell:
But by being vulnerable and sharing yourself, other people get permission to do it back. And you get, you get a lot out of it, I think. And. Yeah. 27 years old. Wow.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah. What landed? Like, if there's one or two things.

Simon Ursell:
I've written a lot of notes, I mean, I really, really enjoyed because it really speaks to me and it's something I've done a lot of work on myself, especially in the sort of things with my mindfulness coach, Mia, around emotions. So he talked about his relationship with fear and how you relate to that. And I think it is so important that point. I think a lot of people think, oh, fear is bad, or I don't know any emotions can be good or bad. They're kind of not. I mean, one of the. I think what I really take away from that is he's basically saying, fierce fear. You know, it's your choice.

Simon Ursell:
Do you wanna, do you want to allow the fear to become a big monster or do you want the fear to be going, ah, okay, fear. What are you trying to tell me? Okay, yeah, I'll respond to that. Thanks. You know, you don't have to, don't have to treat it as a bad thing. Information. I love that. I think that that's something that I've taken with me in my life at the moment.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah, my, my first one is the chill, the out commitment. Like just. I like the language around. Yeah, let's. And I guess the Stories around remembering what it was like when you were a child. And yeah, the color you color you added around fight flight, freeze response and I guess how, how much that damage that's probably doing to your body for leaders, if they're constantly on it and you know, they don't find those opportunities.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, I mean it's genuinely puzzles me now if I'm honest. I mean, I guess the four day week would be something that really speaks to this. The, you know, without the amount of what we're getting through at Tyler Grange because of that is ridiculous. And it's because we're giving people a chance to breathe, you know, and then the opposite is true. I mean I'm there hanging out with people doing. I was having dinner with a guy and he's doing a 60 hour week. And I'm thinking you're not doing 60 effective hours, that's for sure. You might want to try doing 30 really effective hours and then compare it to your 60 okay hours.

Simon Ursell:
See what you get, what gets you the most, you know, plus a lot. Another thing, I don't know if you notice this with leaders especially, I guess this might be really relevant in sport but certainly in business with leaders is they tend to, then their recovery tends to be something that's really full on. So they'll go and do something like I don't know, cycling or fitness or. And yeah, okay, that is a mindful, you know, you are looking after your body and all that, that's all that cool stuff, but you're not really switching off. I. And it does, you know, you're basically running away from something. I think.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah, I like the expanding, contracting, you know, thinking of focus as. And even those activities they're talking about, people are super focused. You know, that's the contracting part. And then the recovery, the childlike stuff is the expanding part. And obviously if you have a job that allows you to be more childlike, then that might be helpful.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, I mean, I guess maybe we do that. Tg. I mean having dogs in the office, that's sort of, that's quite a child ish kind of thing, isn't it? I mean they're messing around, it's distracting. It's nice. It snaps you out of that at that moment and can calm you a bit. But that, but that's. I think you know what Sam spoke about and he did it beautifully. Far better than I could have done.

Simon Ursell:
That whole idea of peace, you know, he's. What he's talking about. There is, it's not, it's Not a busy brain thing. You know, you've got to calm down, you've got to have. It's got to feel peaceful. And I think that really is, you know, do the act of doing, watching, playing those kind of things. It's not necessarily just peace, you know, and trying to find a way to be calm and peaceful is a. Is an absolutely essential skill for high performance, in my opinion.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah, I think that would change. I know you, you think I don't like the word mindfulness and I'm not sure I do, but I quite liked his use of the word thoughtlessness.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, well, that's cool. Yeah, I don't like the word mindfulness. I think it's a rubbish word. I really don't. But it's a shorthand, isn't it? I mean, a thoughtlessness. We've, we've had this debate. We've had this debate. We've tried it.

Simon Ursell:
I mean, maybe we, maybe with thoughtlessness is a good one. I'm going to like it. I quite like these controversial things because I like selfish. You know, that's another thing I've spoken about on the pod is, you know, it's good to think of the self a little bit selfish. It's a bit of confronting word, isn't it? And thoughtlessness is a confronting word. So it kind of makes people pay attention and they think it's bad, but it's actually good either. There's the yin yang part of it too, isn't it? It's nice.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Well, I'll give a shout out to Jeremy Hall. We chat a bit about this today. Selfishness and how actually there's, you know, the selfishness for yourself and actually there's selfishness for the team. And those could be two different things as well. So actually thinking a lot more about what that might be.

Simon Ursell:
But again, it's a confronting word, isn't it?

Rusty Earnshaw:
Some tangents, isn't it?

Simon Ursell:
Oh, yeah, absolutely. But I really enjoyed it. I mean, yeah. I mean, the big one for me at 27 years old, to have the awareness that he's got around his. Himself, his emotions, his physical being is. Is seriously cool. I mean, that guy, that guy is a very, very cool guy. I'm very grateful you brought him on.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Nice. And then after our next pod, maybe my challenge to you is to surprise me.

Simon Ursell:
Okay, yeah, I'll do that. So next guest is a rusty surprise.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Big surprise.

Simon Ursell:
Okay, I'm gonna do my best. I'm gonna. I mean, you set the bar pretty high there, buddy.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Yeah, we need trauma. We need trauma. Thanks, everyone, for listening. We appreciate you.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, see you soon.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Thanks so much for joining us on the Band Speculative podcast with Simon Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you want to reach out to us. Simon, where can I reach you?

Simon Ursell:
LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursel, you are sick. Sugar E Doublel. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

Rusty Earnshaw:
TikTok? No, not really. LinkedIn, Russell Anshaw. And then the same on Twitter. But please ignore all my political thoughts.

Simon Ursell:
Yeah, second that.

Rusty Earnshaw:
Over and out.