Finding Strength in the Scrum with Andy Long | Episode 41

Simon and Rusty are joined by former England international Andy Long to explore the experiences that shaped his career on and off the rugby pitch. Andy shares how losing his father at a young age influenced his outlook on life, and how the rugby community became a source of purpose, belonging, and resilience throughout his journey.

We go deep into the mental challenges of elite sport, from impostor syndrome after his England debut to the importance of supportive environments and psychological skills. Drawing on lessons from professional rugby, endurance events, and leadership, Andy offers an honest and inspiring perspective on how community, self-awareness, and the right support can help us perform, and even thrive when life gets tough.

In this episode:

• How losing his father shaped Andy's resilience and outlook on life 
• The mental challenges of international sport and overcoming self-doubt 
• Why community and belonging are essential for performance and wellbeing 
• Lessons from elite rugby, endurance sport, and high-performing environments 
• How planning, perspective, and support help people thrive under pressure

Please like, subscribe or follow, so you're notified of any new episodes coming up, and if you're keen to reach Rusty or Simon with any suggestions, feedback or comments, you can contact them via the show's LinkedIn page here: 

https://www.linkedin.com/company/the-bouncebackability-podcast/

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Simon and Rusty here with the Bounce Back Ability Podcast. Podcast that explores how to deal with obstacles, setbacks and challenges. Hope you enjoy the pod. Looking forward to it. Listen on. Well, hi everybody. We've got Andy Long on today. I'm gonna call him Andy, because I think it'd be awkward if I call him Longie. So yeah, that might be weird. I don't know. What do you think, Rusty?

SPEAKER_02 0:22

I think it's gonna be weird if you call him Andy, but you know, you you do you. Should I do me? Let's see how that works.

SPEAKER_01 0:28

Let's see if it works. Let's see how that one turns out. I don't know, but yeah, rugby legend. He's uh Cat for England, played with you at Bath. Did he win the European Cup with you at Bath?

SPEAKER_02 0:38

Was he on the bench in the European Cup? No, I don't think he was. I think now Freddie Mende was on the bench. Mark Regan, who I'm sure he'll talk about, started. Um yeah, lived with Longie for a bit. You know, had all the had it all really to be a game changer in the game. Probably. I'm sure he'll talk about some mindset stuff, and that's transferred into his life now. And obviously doing some like the mouth and disabler and various other things is a bit of a ledge in in my eyes. And so, yeah, I'm super excited to hear the story, and I'm sure there'll be some stuff that I probably never heard before, so that's always exciting as well.

SPEAKER_01 1:20

Yeah, yeah, sure. Well, let's get him on. Uh Simon, how are you? Young man, you will? Yeah, I'm alright. Not bad. You know, it's raining outside, which is weird.

SPEAKER_02 1:30

Yeah, and also this is the first time we've done a pod where you haven't had to dick around with the microphones for about 20 minutes.

SPEAKER_01 1:35

Yeah, that's cheap. Although you because we're doing this from lately, you haven't seen me dick around with the microphone for 20 minutes before we came on, so that'll be why.

SPEAKER_02 1:44

Oh, nice, cool. Oh, well, good. I'm looking forward to this because obviously, uh a bit like Richard Bryan, it's uh it's a blast from my past.

SPEAKER_01 1:51

So we got Andy on. Hey Andy, you're right.

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Hey, yeah, boys, how are you doing? You're very good. Lovely to be on the pod. Honoured to be on it. Who calls you Andy?

SPEAKER_01 2:01

Me, I just did.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Uh yeah, Simon. People yeah.

SPEAKER_01 2:05

Yeah, people that don't know you.

SPEAKER_00 2:06

Yeah, a few people do, a few people do. They can't like in some of the work environments, they can't they don't just call me Longy straight away, but yeah, eventually.

SPEAKER_01 2:14

I think it'd be weird for me to come straight on and go, hello Longy. I mean it's a bit familiar, isn't it?

SPEAKER_00 2:18

Would that or would you not would um I don't know, maybe, I don't know. I like I've been called a lot worse, right? Generally I am, but you know, and some of the nicknames I've got, you know, we probably can't share on this pod, but I mean I tend to be come to everything really.

SPEAKER_01 2:34

Nicknames are brilliant though, aren't they? I mean uh well Rusty, you're Rusty, but um Do you have any other nicknames?

SPEAKER_02 2:42

Um used to be used to be called like the jaw, because I've got like quite a defined jaw line. Um trying to think about a long ear, I don't know if you know any more.

SPEAKER_00 2:52

So you were you might not know this, but you were called the we called you the lung while you're at at bath. But the lung because he was like the fittest human ever known to man, so it was like one big lung. Uh when he did like the bleak test. So the lung.

SPEAKER_01 3:08

The lung. I'm gonna call you the lung. That's about it. Okay, you've got logo.

SPEAKER_02 3:12

I'm definitely not the lung any. I'm definitely not the lung anymore.

SPEAKER_00 3:15

Well, I've said marathon in the in the bank. You're a half marathon, isn't it, coming up, mate?

SPEAKER_02 3:20

A very slow half marathon just being done, which compares in no way to your marathon disabler. And apologies. Obviously, we had a bathroom in the other day, and and I just couldn't stop trying to. I was just just so excited that we've done the mouth and disabla that I just wanted everyone to know, but so anyway, so long he's on the pod. Uh obviously we were together back in Bath, lived together for a bit, played together a bit, then also a bit of time together at Rov, which is like dark days, dark days. Um and then I've been gone about that. And then obviously you've set yourself up into doing some cool business stuff now, and also obviously did. I mean, on it. I know a couple of other people have done mouth and disabled, and it's like, what did you say? It's like nine days, it's like 30 to 40 degrees. You've got everything in your bag for the nine days.

SPEAKER_01 4:21

What on earth?

SPEAKER_02 4:22

Yeah, yeah. Probably there's probably not a hotel bed. Is there a hotel bed?

SPEAKER_01 4:26

No, sadly not. No, not a premium bed. Did you lose a toe or nearly lose a toe? I got I got a mate of mine who did it and lost a toe.

SPEAKER_00 4:34

Yeah, no, I kept all toes, a few blisters, but no no toenails or any of that. I was I was lucky in that sense. But there was some there were some horrific like open blisters that were they were nasty. Some cards, yeah, nasty. Wow. Yeah, it was a good event.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Yeah, what what was good good. What was good. What was good about it?

SPEAKER_00 4:57

What was good about it, yeah. Um I think what was good about it, good place to start. I think it was it was good because it was kind of everything I thought it was going to be, and a bit more. Um uh it was good. I met some amazing people with some great stories out there, right? There's guy guys with prosthetic, you know, limbs doing it. There was people that were, you know, there's one one kid that was doing it being pushed in like a chair with a group of eight people over all the dunes, just unreal. So you go kind of you're so lucky that you can do it in the way that I can do it. Um, so you see a lot of stories of a guy there with stage four cancer doing it. Um, yeah, unreal. Like that's why it was amazing because it wasn't about going there to bloody win it or you know, a particular time, it was just about being fortunate enough, really, to be in a position where I could just take it on. And I think that's why it came back to doing it for obviously the charity and MND and stuff. That's why it was quite almost like a privilege to be able to do it. Um there was there's times when you're out there and it's it was pretty tough, right? There was elements where it was hard. Some of the things which are hard weren't the things I thought were going to be hard. That's the weird bit, I think. You know, it was more just the kind of living in the desert, you know, when you want to relax and you want to sit down, you're just sitting on your mat, which is about that thick. And you know, you've got sand just being blown in your face constantly, you're eating food that you don't want to eat, your tent mate next to you's got better food, you want to strangling for his pepperoni, and uh and you've got you've got a macadamia nut. Um, so yeah, so it's those things which kind of more like mental that you would have kind of get through. But it was a great event, yeah. I I loved it. It was brilliant.

SPEAKER_01 6:39

I mean, I hear that. It must have been brilliant. Meeting the people and being around a challenge that everybody's sort of striving towards together and stuff like that, like in a chair and cancer. I mean, cool. Just incredible to see people doing that. Wow. Makes me feel like I ought to go for a run. Maybe I won't.

SPEAKER_02 7:00

When uh it reminded me when Oli Ollie just went rode across the Atlantic, Oli Phillips, and he said the hardest part was wasn't the bits he thought it was gonna be. It was actually the bits where you're underneath resting because you are like in your own thoughts, in a very small space, knowing that in under two hours you were, you know, and you were almost trying to force yourself to get some sleep. Um, I love that the best food was the pepperami. Like it was that bad. The food was that bad.

SPEAKER_00 7:30

Well, you just kind of bring your own food, and so I had like it didn't go, it didn't start off particularly well. Uh that I had like pretty bad guts when I got out of there. So the first two days in the desert before we started, I couldn't really eat anything. So I was using the f the very basic facilities that they have out there quite a lot of the time, um, which is a which is an event in itself. It's like harder than running, having to deal with that stuff. And then um, so I was probably going a little bit underfueled. And then the food you want, you don't want to eat, and you know, you you've made a choice, you're going, okay, that's what I think I'm gonna want, and maybe you don't. So then you've got to be adaptable and you've got to, you know, luckily I prepared, you know, some of the stuff I do, you know, Rusty, you know about the sort of red to blue stuff and mental skills and mindset stuff is like, you know, you prepare your what ifs and your control circles and all that sort of stuff to help me when I was out there, and there's stuff that cropped up, there's stuff that didn't crop up, and you just gotta stay pretty flexible. And I guess perspective is a key thing as well. There's always someone out there that's probably having it harder. You know, you look across at the lad in the wheelchair and you look across to the guy with prosthetics, you look across at other people, you think, okay, there's other people who are a lot worse off here than me. Just dig in.

SPEAKER_01 8:40

Yeah, that's cool. Talk talk about the red and blue stuff then. I mean, I I know a little bit about that from knocking around with Rusty and others.

SPEAKER_00 8:47

Yeah, no, definitely. Uh obviously the mental skills framework I've been you know using and coaching for a few years now. And yeah, I think it helps in my preparation and understanding, you know, where where are the things that are probably going to try and divert my attention? Because we know that it's like, you know, we talk about your attention being important when it comes to mindset, where your attention goes, your energy follows. And you know, if I can I can control that and I prepared myself in a way that you know I went out there as prepared as I could be, but then scenario plan, the what if, what if this happens, what if that happens, what's gonna happen to not necessarily physically and how do I access that from a kind of a routine perspective, but actually, where's my where's my mindset gonna be going? What's the potential? It's interesting listening to the podcast before you guys were with about that that are those areas as well.

SPEAKER_01 9:31

You know, the pr the um Yeah, with kind of uh I didn't mention it first, Rusty. Get in.

SPEAKER_00 9:38

But those things that you kind of I don't know, she called it the the things you predict or the things you talk about in your past that have happened that you think that's gonna happen again, and how do you rewire that? So I think going in with some preparation and spending some time preparing for some of the things I couldn't control: heat, terrain, you know, distance, uh, I couldn't control what my teammate or my tent mates are gonna say, how they're gonna act, are they gonna snore? Uh are they gonna have better food than me? What are things that are gonna irritate me? Um, but then there's certain things I can control at my moment. So focus a lot on that. So when I'm out there, I'm I'm almost one step ahead. I felt that. Uh, and then actually in the race, almost, you know, 270 kilometers across a desert seems like a long way. But then if you six stages across seven days, 100k in the middle of that fourth stage over two days, and all you think about is the next checkpoint. So I was literally going, right, checkpoint to checkpoint, it's about seven and a half K each. What does that terrain look like? Uh, what's it gonna do to me? What do I need in that moment? And that's all I focused on was that next block. And I think that's quite relevant to life as well. Sometimes when we're having a long day and every day feels like a bit of an ultramarathon. What's what's my next hour look like? What's the terrain? What's coming up? What's gonna divert me in that time? How do I stay ahead? How do I how do I plan? Uh and that that that helps me, and it helps me in lots of things I do, but certainly when it comes to like long distance, you know, stuff like that is is really important.

SPEAKER_01 11:06

Wow, yeah. I mean, that's brilliant. And we were talking before we um we press record, we were having a chat, weren't we? And talking about, you know, you've been on a little bit of uh I mean, I hesitate to use the word journey because it's so underuse overused, isn't it? But but it you know, it sounds like you know, from childhood B to you know being an international rugby player, um, and then the challenges that came after that. It's been do you want to sort of I don't know what you're happy to share, but do you want to talk through some of those things?

SPEAKER_00 11:38

Yeah, of course. Yeah, look, I was uh you know, I started playing rugby at the age of five, mini rugby, and everything was going really well, and enjoying all that stuff, and you know, dream of sort of playing for England and all that sort of amazing time, you know, 91 World Cup and all those things, and you know, leading into that. But you know, at the age of 10, uh, I lost my dad. You know, my dad died of a heart attack. I found my dad at home on my own, and I guess talk about it a lot, but in that I think back in those days, like late 80s, they didn't really have the resources for coping with stuff like that, I don't think, like in terms of grief. And I know I certainly didn't get any support in that way, and it wasn't anyone's fault, I won't blame anyone, but you either had the options of going to the doctor or the church, and neither of which seemed like very good options for me at the time. So I kind of like you the one thing that did help me get through a lot of that, uh, and I didn't only kind of reflecting on it now, because when you're 10, you don't know. I'm the youngest of four, we're all at different stages in our development as children, as guys. Two of my my siblings had left home by that time anyway. So just me and my other sister and and my mum. And um, but the rugby club and the sports club and people like that really kind of was a real purpose for me, I think. That was a real way of moving forward. Um, and I didn't realise it at the time, but throwing myself into that was so important and really great people that helped me. Uh, and I guess, yeah, like I said, it's only in probably the recent years when I reflect back on it, I go, actually, that's what they were doing for me. I didn't realise that. Um, but that helped me. And I was then really just threw myself into sport, threw myself into sport. Um and especially so rugby and cricket were were kind of vying for which which way I was gonna go. Um, and then uh played England schools at rugby, um, 18 and um rugby turns pro. Um, and I went and had trial with Bristol, um, played a game there, and then Bath came along, had a phone call from Andy Robinson and and a couple of guys there, and uh went up there and signed for £5,000 a year on a great first contract. And um later, like later I found out that every other player on the academy was getting £10,000 a year. But the state, but I wasn't from Colston, so I didn't get the £10,000 a year. Um so I I was just I was just state school longie from down in Bournemouth, and they thought they could do other things. Anyway, I joined Bath, it was amazing. Uh, and it was like it we were like guinea pigs as a Russell probably, you know, Russell's a different because he'd coming out a bit older, but we came in definitely as guinea pigs, you know. They didn't know what rugby professional rugby was. I think they're still trying to work it out now. But I mean it was it was kind of like guinea pigs, train all day, uh, live like a student, uh, but you're a professional rugby player. Um, and it was amazing, really. It was it was great fun, a huge fun. Um, around like all of a sudden you've you've gone from watching your your idols as a kid playing or watching them on the TV to suddenly being in the on the pitch with them or being surrounded by them. It was just like unreal. Um, and then yeah, and I went back to Bournemouth because I wasn't there were six hookers at the time when I joined Bath. Uh I think I was one of six or seventh in line and in that first year. So I went back down to Bournemouth to uh to play in the in their team there. Um, and then sort of made my debut at the end of that first year, uh, to the disgust of Andy Robinson, because I was on the bench uh against, I can't remember it was now Sale, I think it was, and uh uh Richard Webster came off to let me come on, uh get me my first game. And the Robbo gave him an absolute blasting saying I didn't want him to come on, I want him to earn this, and all this sort of stuff. So it kind of, I guess, leads you into what like what was rugby like back then, what was that mentality like of that that group? Um, and uh, but yeah, then you fast forward then, uh had the opportunity to go, Saracens came in, opportunity to leave, um, but then spoke to a few people and I ended up staying, signing again for Bath. And then basically it was about when Mark Regan's just joined Bath Rugby. Uh, if you get ahead of Mark Regan, you get an England team. That's what it was said to me. He's a British line hooker, he's come back, and if you get in front of him, you're gonna play for England. I thought that sounds like good logic to me. So got in the team, played okay, and then yeah, got picked for England, and then got dropped for England after 40 minutes. So it was uh it was the best week of my life in many ways, but then uh you know, it's quite funny because there's like various photos of like me singing the anthem and most proud moment ever, right? And then there's a photo of me about probably 15 minutes in, and it's like shell shock. Oh my god, what is this going on? And ah, yeah. And then you come back to the club and you know, it's you you feel it. Well, it's a motor of I talked about this before, but you I felt embarrassed, I felt ashamed, I felt um fraud, I felt all these things. Uh, and it was just at the club, there wasn't the support really. You're kind of one cat wonder, you're this, you're that, and um, yeah, you you're kind of left to have to kind of sit with it for a while, um, and then work your way, I think, you know, work your way back and get you know, work hard and train hard. And that was my mentality anyway, was just get back to moving forward. But you they don't you can do that physically, you can that's what you out put out, but what was going on inside was completely different for me, and it definitely affected the rest of my career.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Wow, I mean that's the contrasts there are absolutely startling, aren't they? I don't know what you think, Rusty. You know, that the whole idea of I'm playing on a pitch with all my heroes, and then one of those heroes says, shouldn't have gone on, you know, your first game for Bath this is. It must have been amazing to go on, and then to come off and hear him say that must have been quite tough. And then and then the England cap, incredible. I mean, that must have been amazing. I mean most people would kill for just the chance to do what you did, wouldn't they? But then to uh for that to almost be taken away by the things people say, it must have been that must have been really challenging and motivating, I guess, from what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 17:53

Yeah, motivating later, I think, definitely. I think that I in the moment, um yeah, you think, okay, well, you're you're the youngest player to play for England in your position, the age of 20 at the time. Um, you know, was I ready? You know, all this sort of stuff, and but you don't get to choose later on, you go, you get some perspective around it, you go well I didn't get to choose that situation. I went in there and gave it the best shot as I could with the tools I had at the moment. But yeah, you you come off that field and you're kind of you it's like a whirlwind. You know, it's a whirlwind. I think coming back then to the to the club and then having to deal with you know, luckily, I suppose luckily they didn't have social media and stuff then. It was like newspapers and C FAX and teletext, and that's generally how you were picked. C Fax have a bit of C Fax, yeah. C Fax holidays as well. You know what I mean? But that's how you found out that you were in an England squad by looking at teletext or C Fax, and you know, that's the way it was. But luckily we didn't have that. So, but I think you're just left, you're left in with your own mind. And I, you know, I don't have like my mum was brilliant, but you know, I didn't have that kind of father figure that probably I looked up to a lot of people. I tried to look for father figures within the group that I had around me, and there were some amazing people that that that I did like listen to and talk to and and look up to within the squad at Bath, and they did help me. Um, but when I but they can only do so much, then you're left with that as a 20-year-old kid to go, okay. Well, how do I manage this when you're at home? And you know, all the doubts that were going through your head. So it did it subsequently it did motivate me, and I think I found out a lot about myself in those moments. But a lot of it was right, train harder. It was it was just you know, what can I control? Even though now I was thinking, looking back, what I know now, it's like what can I control now? Well, I can control what I do, what's my next step? And trained harder, worked harder, try to be better, but it never solved all those things, are brilliant, physically, tactically, technically, brilliant. But it didn't solve the the underlying issue that I had with my game, which was mindset, and that's why I'm so passionate now, 30 years later, being able to now help people in those moments, whether or not it's a dressage rider going into a competition, whether or not it's a mate of mine that's struggling with something, or whether or not it's in a uh you know, someone that's about to be in a boardroom, or it's a team, whatever it might be in any situation. I'm really passionate now about from all the things I've learned, is trying to help people. And um, yeah, there's the one part of my game that that probably was the most inconsistent, which was probably the thing that held me back from being I maybe a better rugby player, but it probably held a lot of people back, Rusty. Me, you, other people, loads of people.

SPEAKER_02 20:43

Yeah, uh, just I mean, I've got so many questions in my thought. I wasn't the first question I was like, who did help you? Like when you said about looking for father figures, who in the squad? It definitely wasn't me, by the way, because I was down, I was down putting on ours.

SPEAKER_01 20:56

So that wasn't helpful. You were just putting your white boots on, weren't you, Rusty? That was all you were doing.

SPEAKER_00 21:01

Yeah. Well, actually, you know, saying that, you know, it was interesting because Rusty helped me, I think, in many ways, though, because you know the way that you I was very serious about stuff as well, and I was quite serious, and but actually having other people around you that actually were able to lighten the load. Oh, I got so many great memories of living with Rusty and the times there, and uh it was great fun. But I think the older players, the likes of Martin Hague, you know, you mentioned Hagee, um, John, John Mallet, you know, those two front row forwards, that like both of them had played for England only once or twice as well in their old older, and they'd worked so hard to get to where they how they played for England. And I felt like the reason why I felt like a fraud is because I was 20. I'd come out of that, I'd been on tour with Clive Woodward, he liked me, he put me in the team. And I felt so bad, almost like bad for them because they were legends. They'd played 300, 400 times for the club, they worked really hard to get played for England. I'm gonna you're the ones that we deserve this. I had not I'm not deserving of this this this cap for England. That's how I felt, rightly or wrongly. That's exactly how I felt.

SPEAKER_01 22:08

Did you say that to them? Did they know that or or have an inkling that you might have been feeling that way?

SPEAKER_00 22:15

Probably not. I remember I remember sitting around a dinner table with them once, and uh I think a question came up with we're with our partners and stuff, and question came up around the table, I think uh, you know, who's been most influential on your life. And so that's a weird came up. And I actually turned around and said, Well, these two guys actually. And that was like, really? Like, yeah, you don't know you have, but you have. And um and I think people come into your life at different times for that to get you through things. I think we're constantly we're constantly going through like a reset. And I think even now, like you we go through our lives and we reset, we meet amazing people that help us on our way. And hopefully, I you know, we're those people for other people as well. Um, and I don't think sometimes we realise, and they don't realise. So going back now and actually being able to tell them that is actually quite powerful. So it's a good reminder that I'm gonna tell. I tell Hagee, but I don't speak to Shep as much. Um, but you know, it's not sort of thing you sort of break into straight away. But I mean, it is something that I think you probably need to remind them that they were really influential on me.

SPEAKER_02 23:17

Yeah, if you don't tell them, I'm gonna tell them. I mean, so many uh made me think about so many things. I was actually gonna ask you, like, how do you think you would have been as a professional now? I remember uh our our head coach writing a thing in the Times, like slagging me and Nathan Thomas off now, and that was just the only time it like it really happened, but now that's really regular. I was also thinking, God, imagine if like day one of pre-season, instead of doing the bleep test, we'd done red to blue. I would have probably helped a lot of people. Well, everyone's doing the bleep test, they're doing the wrong thing.

SPEAKER_00 23:52

Well, it's funny because um, yeah, absolutely. It's it's you know, in the all blacks kind of worked it out, you know, in 2011, right? That they they there was the one part of their game that probably was stopping them winning World Cups, and uh, you know, they were great a lot of the other stuff. But I mean, yeah, I think Ben Clark actually mentioned it once to me. I remember we were uh we were tour, we were away somewhere pre-season tour uh when he came back to Bath. Uh it might have been when we were with England in 2000, I think, um, in in South Africa, and he was on that tour or or something like that. And he said about psychologists, you know, you'd be good to speak to a psychologist at that time. I think um Austin Swain or someone like that was like the English. And I'd and I'd I'd kind of touch based it, but it was never the sort of thing, you know, you felt awkward. There was never an easy route in. It was like, you know, I I spoke to Phil Dowson the other day, you know, a good friend of mine, and he's doing some pretty good stuff at Saints, isn't he? And and we talked about psychology a little bit, and we talked about what they have at Saints, and he said, Well, look, how I tell the lads is like there's all these different resources. I'm not gonna tell you to go to them or what to do, but they're there for you. Use them as you need. One player might need loads of it, some people won't say, I don't need it at the moment, but it's there and it's there and it's open, and it's and I think that if you know it's great that the sports evolved to that point, and we've probably got to go through stuff to get there. But I don't think it I think when we were playing, it was more, you know, you didn't want to show any weakness. It was, it was that that kind of you don't show any weakness. The players that come through that group didn't show any weakness, they didn't seem to show any weaknesses. Uh, and so you were just, you know, through nurture, you just you just uh you just fall into that, which you know look, I don't saying that, yeah, I mean there's some good stuff that came from that as well. It's not saying it's all bad. There was some, I think there's some good stuff that I learned around uh uh you know working stuff out and being resilient in those moments, but just lay at areas from my life from being a young age through that life, and yeah, there's always been bits to have to work through.

SPEAKER_02 26:00

Yeah, my sense would be that that was happening by chance. Like there'd be some people that that are still like not broken but still affected by that stuff, would be my view. Um, you know, it also started to make me think way more about like the kind of resilience by community. So, like, how as a team, what were the things we did as a group that were really unhelpful for each other? So they did lots of things that they thought was helpful, but the reality is you never spoke about it. So you said things on this pod that we've never spoken about, right? That's fascinating, isn't it? Um, I remember vividly Leicester away and the line out isn't going well, and the coach on the bench is like he's blaming you in front of everyone else, and and and when the leader doesn't back you, then that's not helpful. And then the other thing that I think wasn't helpful was I don't think the competition was like necessarily always productive. I think often it was unproductive. So the minute you mentioned Mark Regan, I had a shudder. Now Reiggs wasn't and and you might tell me otherwise, but I don't think he would have been thinking I'm gonna get better and long, he's gonna get better with me.

SPEAKER_00 27:17

You know, absolutely, absolutely, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:20

And and again, you know, sorry, those things uh those things would all be things that I mean, obviously you're real good mate to announce that, but you know, and played at Northampton as well in the twilight of your career. Um, those would all be things I would associate, having spent time there, with the environment at Northampton at the same time.

SPEAKER_00 27:40

No, it's totally different. It's totally different. I mean, I you know, I woke up in the morning thinking of Mark Regan, I went to bed at night thinking of Mark Regan. I don't think he did the same about me. Uh uh, you know, I had a photo of him on my fridge, you know, um, and an article he did in the in the paper at the Chronicle. I remember he wrote something about me or about getting the shirt back or something like that. I cut it out and pinned it on my fridge. I looked at it every day. Now, not many players do that. I mean, that's probably not healthy way of dealing with the things that I can control. It motivated me, it motivated me beyond belief to want to get better and go out on the field and and and work hard. It did motivate me, but I probably put too much attention, I don't think there's a scale of that, you know, and I probably put too much on that. Um I remember I remember not getting picked in an England A squad. Um, and then London Irish Shooker, Richard Kirk, got picked ahead of me, and uh a Kiwi guy, and uh lovely bloke, lovely bloke. And um, I remember hearing the news on C Fax where it was, and you know, this is probably a Thursday. We're probably playing on a Saturday, and I just got out and got a run like I just ran around Bath for two hours because I didn't know what else to do. It was just like the only way I could do it. I'm gonna show this guy that he's not gonna be fit than me. Oh, I'm gonna be fit than him. What can I do? He won't be doing this when I'm doing this. That was just the mentality of those days. He would never do that now. He'd never go and do that. I don't think people would do that now. It's just, you know, he's not training when I'm he's asleep and I'm training. And but that was the mentality, and I think it's hard to shake that off. I think still now I have that a little bit of that. Um, but that's not necessarily healthy. I don't think it was necessary for me in terms of my mindset. Having some people around me probably to give me a bit more perspective and actually be a bit more um focused in how I was going to respond would have been better. Um, but it wasn't the case, right? So um knowing now, I wish I'd known then what I know now.

SPEAKER_02 29:40

Yeah, there's a there's a sorry, there's a like a good reminder here, isn't there? Like the way you described what you did uh Marth and De Sabler uh uh how old are you now? 48, 49? A little bit older than a little bit older than you were back then. Of taking a step back, having perspective, seeing other people and giving you perspective, planning some what if, planning around your mindset, working out like what was outside of your control versus my thoughts, my view. I was probably the opposite of your bath. So you were like, you were if in doubt work harder, you were uh probably not able to take that step back, and probably didn't have someone to help you take that step back. Um, and again, so Austin Swain came in and did stuff with us at Cambridge. We did uh some scenario, like some what if stuff with him for the vasty match, and I remember going, he was like, Come on, everyone's imagined, we're under the post, we're two scores down, and I was like, Hey, we're not gonna be two scores down, we're fine, like so we chill, like and then when I was at Walker, Alan Buzzer, Buzz came, Buzz like come around my house, Salt Lane, Sheffield, like, hey Rusty, how are you doing? I'm like, I'm right, mate, what do you want? And Buzz is like, oh, I just want to should we have a cup of tea and chat about goal saying? And I was like, what the fuck is going on? Like, and and just that building, you know. So you now think way differently about how you plan. Yeah, you know, things like mindset are super important to you, things about like, you know, possible scenarios are super important to you, so that when things do happen, you're better you're better prepared for them, you're more effective in those critical moments than you would have been back then. And again, this whole like that I just don't think it was helpful at the noise around because the other thing that would have happened, and you might tell me it's this isn't true, it's there'd be players in that basketball that when you you came back and when you didn't get capped a bit, they'd start like calling you one cap wonder or putting up a one cap wonder team and making you captain. And so I also think there'd be some people that would take some joy in the fact that that had happened.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

Yeah, I'm sure, yeah, absolutely. I'm sure there would have been players in that squad, and but you know, again, go back to it. It was it's it's it was awful, it felt awful at the time, it felt awkward at I guess at the time, and um, and you know, but you know, I didn't I didn't have the I wasn't mature enough maybe to get perspective. I didn't have the things around me to get perspective and go, actually, this is what's happened, it's not all that bad. Lots of other things happened, you know. But it's it's interesting what you you're saying there about um uh marathon disabled is actually one of the things I put in my control circles was is um was around being too competitive, knowing myself, and trying to push too hard and being I knew what it felt like if someone overtook me, or if uh and I felt I should be what am I not? Why am I not there? And that that was one of the biggest things, even in my tent, like going back and going right, this is where I am, they are where they are, race my race. People go past me, it doesn't matter. You're here for the charity, you're here to get to the end. This is when you're doing stage two of six, you're thinking, well, I've just got to get to the next stage, and that was it. Checkpoint to checkpoint, checkpoint. But I actually had planned for how I was gonna feel when I was getting overtaken because I knew that my tendency would be to push harder. So, what could be a really good, what could be a really powerful uh tendency that I have and behavior that I have, which shows up really well in certain things of perseverance, pushing hard, flip that on the other side. This isn't gonna serve me very well in this environment with the heat, it could go really badly wrong. So that is a quite good example of what we're talking about before, if I'd known that before, but being able to do it now is is is is pretty it's pretty good and also help you know help others as well.

SPEAKER_02 33:40

Mate, if that had been a workshop in 1996, I mean because you were so skillful and like you were way ahead of your time as a player. Like yeah, I mean it's not gonna happen in 1996, unfortunately, but and it's way more likely to happen now for players, but yeah, wow. I I love that you did that because again, when I ran my first half marathon, like which is it's pathetic compared to marathon, I I ran the first two miles too quickly because there was because they put me in the wrong star group, and there's people around me, and I'm competitive. And it's like I didn't do any of your registry planning. So obviously I then ended up walking a bit later on because I was goosed.

SPEAKER_00 34:26

Even to the decent the details around it is like you know, the the speed of music you listen to in the race will it dictate on how fast you've moving and your heart rate. And I could prepare that, I knew that. I knew all the things I needed when I needed it. The dis how do I when I'm really struggling, what are the distractions I'm gonna use? When am I gonna use it? All that stuff. But then things crop up that you don't expect. You suddenly start feeling bad when you think we should be good. And that's the thing with like a long run like that, is you're gonna go you can go from feeling really good to feeling bad pretty quickly, and it's not like different to a day, you know. You know, it passes, right? You know, in our life, doesn't it? Things happen, but um, yeah, yeah. I that that comes as no surprise to me, Russell, that you flew off the the start line pretty quick with the elite.

SPEAKER_02 35:11

Like I was racing JC down the canal doing our 10k run, step back to the uh to the pub, whatever it was called, the anchor or whatever, and back.

SPEAKER_00 35:19

Oh, well, yeah, actually, it's a good story, isn't it? The the Jim Blair Trundle wheel and the 5k down there. It's a good story.

SPEAKER_01 35:26

So there's a what uh there seems to be some real themes coming up here. In fact, something that keeps popping into my head is going back to you 10 years old, finding something in rugby that was helping you, and you just threw yourself into that. And one of the things Rusty and I have spoken about quite a lot is pro sport. I'm not a fan. Um I I love the idea of community sport and people playing sport for like you're talking about mouth and disab, you know, you're not doing it to get the best time, you're doing it for other reasons, which are probably more nourishing and helpful than trying to get paid and win a win an individual game, isn't it? And there seems to be something there, it's like you know, you didn't have anywhere to go, you know, you had the doctor or the vicar, um, but you had the rugby club, and just because that wasn't signposted as a place for you to go to help you with with your struggles, the rugby club. I mean, you know, the three of us know rugby clubs really well. I certainly I've grown up around rugby my whole life. Rugby clubs are amazing places, you know. If somebody's having a hard time, all these big burdy blakes will pile in and help, you know, emotionally, physically, financially, most rugby clubs, you'd find that in a rugby club, wouldn't you? And I wonder how much of that is being slowly eroded by professionalism and the need for eyeballs on games. So people don't you don't want people playing rugby, you want people watching rugby, don't you? You don't want people participating, you want people spending. And the the idea of community sports and competitive sports, especially for young chaps, is huge in terms of helping them through challenging times, whereas that that it may not suit them to go and see a psychologist, a therapist. I mean, that might not be what they needed, but those this is all it's almost an informal um mental support by community. I mean, Rusty talked about resilience by community. That is a community that I don't know, it feels like it gave you a lot of resilience. So, how much of that could might you reflect on and think that actually really helped you through to an England cap and then to deal with some of the challenges that came after that as well?

SPEAKER_00 37:46

Oh, 100%. It's so pivotal, and not just to the rugby club, it was a sports club, former sports club, and it was so I played cricket there, I played rugby there. I was there for full the whole year. Yeah, um, you know, mum would drop me and my mate off in the morning with all our kit, what we ever had. We stayed there all day, get picked up at the end of the day. Either there'd be tennis rackets, footballs, the groundsman would become like our best friend. Uh, the guys down there would literally, it just reminds me, and then I grew up there to the point where I played first team rugby, first team cricket. Um I uh worked behind the bar. Um, you know, all these things that I was doing, just absolutely, and there was people in the cricket, because my dad was a much more of a big cricketer than rugby. Rugby was quite alien to him. But actually, from cricket perspective, the people that he was at school with were involved with the cricket club, so they without even knowing, I now looking back at it, you can see that they were there helping me. There was a kind of a an ecosystem, an ecosystem I didn't know that was going on behind me that was actually supporting me. And then all I had to do was ride the wave of using a bit of talent and a bit of hard work and ride this wave to going where it was going and just go with it. Um, to the point where, you know, even when I was going to the trials, you know, at least thinking trials are like at 18, 17, 18, Dorset and Wilts, local trials, there were people from the rugby club helping my mum to get me to the trials. So without them, I wouldn't be able to do it. Then it's the school to get, you know, I was very much just a comprehensive school, but to go to schools, uh trials, uh, we had to have a school team. No, we didn't have a school team. So somehow or another, I got a few of my mates together and we said, well, let's create a team. So we create the team at school so we could go to some trials. So it's kind of that kind of whole thing just went as a bit of a momentum, um, which was quite cool. But yeah, you're right, Simon. Without without that sports club ethos, uh, yeah, it would have been very difficult. But it was somewhere which uh I still find comforting to go back there. It's uh it's a place of comfort, go back there, got so many good memories, sure.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

And of the people, yeah, and an unbelievable experience. And how much of that is getting lost? I mean, how much how much could you get government spending on initiatives to help young boys? Because there's a problem, isn't there? We all know it. There's issues with young boys and feeling very much outside of society. Those were the places that they would be feel part of the community and they'd meet, they'd find role models and people that would help them. And you know, I don't know, did anybody sort of have a word if you were going off the rails a little bit and say, you know, do you really want to be doing that? Did that happen much? I mean, certainly did in my maybe a little bit.

SPEAKER_00 40:31

Um, yeah, and I was definitely led led astray and stuff like that. I was lucky, I think. There's a couple of there's been instances throughout my life where I probably um didn't get it completely right, and um, you know, I you know ended up in a a cell overnight when I was a younger lad, and you know, things like that that happened that due to you know alcohol and being a lad. Uh yeah, and I think that it but it was there was more good stuff than bad stuff. I think, but yeah, there were people there that probably yeah, yeah, you they were keep an eye, keep an eye out. But it's you know, those clubs there, you know. I'm not and I'm not saying that that sort of drinking culture is is is great, but back then that it was just a huge drinking culture as well within those junior clubs. It's probably not sane now. I don't think there's the relationships are completely different now, which is good. But um, yeah, no, there was some there was some there were some good people that really definitely definitely helped me out. And I think that yeah, it'd be a crying shame if we're not investing in those or putting shining a light on how important they are. Because probably the those stories probably don't come out, you probably don't hear about them, but there's probably quite a few. People either lost parents or every club, you know.

SPEAKER_01 41:38

I mean, I can think of one at my local club seven or five years ago. Um, you know, lost his dad, and everyone has been helping him out, young lad, you know, uh keeping those on and keeping him involved in sport. That's that's fire a rugby club and a cricket club, actually. That it's uh I don't think it's uncommon. I I really don't. I community well, I mean this comes up on this podcast, uh, most episodes. Community is is enormous, environment is enormous in resilience and helping people to be able to cope with challenge, support people around you and the ability to connect with others and them l having having your interests to some extent is is enormous. And then going into an environment like Bath, Northampton didn't sound ideal. I don't know if that's fair or not. Um, England, you know, how much were those places similar to the rugby club and then they had your best interests at heart? Doesn't sound like they did. They just wanted to win. I mean, they wanted to win, want to make money. I mean, how much were they really looking out for you?

SPEAKER_00 42:43

I think it's a dude, I think it was different. I think uh yeah, I you know, I went from you know, I went from Bath, yeah, yeah, I was meant to go to sale, that deal fell through after leaving Bath. That was another kind of difficult moment in my career, I think, because I'd I'd I'd left, decided to leave Bath. Uh, I'd actually got myself out of a contract to leave Bath and then um and then I went to sign the contract and the person that went not to be named was didn't turn up. Uh and then spoke to the agent that'd come to sign me and it's like he'd gone quiet on me as well. So all of a sudden I've got myself out of a contract at a club that I absolutely loved because I was probably a petulant younger man, and that I wanted to change at that time. I thought I wanted, that's what I wanted. Uh, and then I had no club. I'm like, I'm left without a club, and I'm a 25-year-old or 24-year-old international rugby player without a club. So I went to Munster, and actually, one place where I felt that they did do that really well is I went over to Munster for uh the Rugby World Cup 2003. And and I've probably fallen out a bit of love with rugby at Bath. You know, I wasn't getting picked, I had a few injuries, you know, the I think when you weren't playing. You were kind of just left and you're over there right now. And I thought I need to do something. So I probably that's probably why I did it. And it all fell through at sale. But actually, in many ways, it was the best thing ever because I actually got like a short-term deal over in Munster. And um, it was brilliant. No one knew who I was out there, really. It was amazing going out there, um, playing with some amazing players. I've just fell in love with rugby again at Munster, and they really did put their arms around me as a player, they really did listen to me. The players would listen to you. Um, and that opened my eyes. And get, I guess that helped me, you know, move. Yeah, sadly, I couldn't stay there much longer because all the internationals came back. But and then the next journey was Rotherham, and you know, Rotherham's a completely different the mighty rod. That was, and that was an eye-opener, really. Um, there. Uh and and then Newcastle Falcons enjoyed my time there immensely. Um, but again, I met Steve Black there. So Blackie for me was so you see people that meet you along your journey. Blackie was someone that came into my life at that time who was amazing at just he just knew what to say at the right time. He just knew what to say to you. And he just like put it, made it really simple. You know, are you being a good person? Yes or no, basically. Yeah, where can you be a better person? You know, what's gonna help now? Be a better teammate. Oh, it was just amazing. And everyone, he was so it's so funny in the way he did things, but he was amazing for me at that moment. Um, so I think that's the probably place where players did feel like they were loved through Blackie. I felt loved by Blackie genuinely. Not all the coaches felt loved by, but I felt genuine love and care from Blackie, and um left there then at Northampton. So uh and Northampton was was was was different, you know. There was a it was a different environment, you know. Jim Mallander, Dorian West, they were very focused, they knew who they wanted to play, it was very focused. But uh on the flip side of that, you know, I met some really great people there that in terms of the strength and conditioning side of it, how far all that had gone and training had gone full circle from Bath to there. Um, so yeah, it was quite amazing. But the the journey before I joined Northampton is I was in Spain for three months as well, four months as well. So I didn't have a job after leaving Newcastle. So I don't know what to do, right? Where do I go? And uh so someone I knew was over in Spain playing, so I thought, okay, let's go to Spain. So I went there and that was quite cool, you know. That was like just go and play, do a bit of coaching. Um, and then funny enough, the the the the the Northampton came, and the person that was gonna sign me its sale was a person that was doing recruitment for Northampton at the time. So he was the person I had to have a phone call with when I was in Spain, which is quite funny.

SPEAKER_02 46:46

Yeah, well, I mean, if you could design one person to bump into your life, uh it would be Steve Black for you, wouldn't it? Probably for lots of us it would have been Steve Black.

SPEAKER_00 46:57

Yeah, yeah, just a brilliant man. Brilliant man, brilliant man, yeah, sadly missed.

SPEAKER_02 47:04

And the uh yeah, no, as we speak now, like there's there's riots in Belfast and lots of people who probably haven't found a club like you found a club. The other thing that I would really remember is that I think when you when times were tough, you would always go back to Bournemouth. So I've had a few nights out at Bournemouth with you because you were like, should we go back to Bournemouth? Um, and then I wonder uh to what extent I don't know whether you feel the same as me. I actually, and and I've I've given Holly a shout out and all the others and tricky and that, but I actually feel better connected to Bath than I ever have because of the alumni stuff, probably more so than when I was a player, which I think is quite weird. I don't know how I don't know how you think about my view on that.

SPEAKER_00 47:51

Yeah, no, I think that's uh it's probably true. I think that this alumni thing we've done is is really important. A lot of clubs are trying to do it as well. But I feel that bath are really reaching out to us as players, it makes you feel it makes you reconnect with it. And I think you're right. I think it's um uh when we went back the other day, it was it was really heartwarming. It was really heartwarming to see uh all the players and you know everyone there. Um but I do genuinely feel that there is a group there that would look after you if if if there was something going on, and I feel I feel that with Bath, definitely. I feel like it with other groups as well. There's certain people in certain areas, but with Bath, I think it's because of who we were, the ages where we were at the time. I do think that that group has got a special bond. There's a special bond because we went through some stuff, it was good and bad, it was funny, it was it was sometimes not funny, but just generally it was. I love the way Pesza calls it a dysfunctional family. I think that's just such a great way of using it. It's like a dysfunctional family, and it but we loved each other, and yeah, I love that. And I I think that if any anyone was having struggles, it we'd all help. And I think that's that's a test. I think that's a test. I think that's why Hawley's done a great job in bringing everyone kind of back together.

SPEAKER_01 49:06

Sounds quite functional to me.

SPEAKER_02 49:10

It's more functional now, it's more functional than it used to be. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_01 49:16

Well, um, we need to wind up there, I'm afraid. I could go on for hours, it's been brilliant. I mean, genuinely it's superb. And we have there's so much we haven't covered as well. I mean anyway, um, really, really good. Um say yeah, thanks for coming on, Longy. I can call you Longy now, can't you? Haven't spoken to you yet.

SPEAKER_03 49:39

Of course you can.

SPEAKER_01 49:40

Um and uh yeah, well um well I think I think there's some incredible stuff in there. I mean, I really do. I think some of the things we've covered off and it's it's incredible how much of what you've spoken about is just a it's just a constant theme with people who've done uh cool things. You know, like you know, whether you like it or not, your career's pretty cool and you've done some cool things, and there's uh there's some stuff that really stands out to me that you see consistently across um people who perform at the highest level. It's um it's brilliant. Really enjoyed it, thanks.

SPEAKER_00 50:17

It's been great. It's great to come on. Thanks for having me. Thank you, sir. Been a pleasure. Thank you, Rusty.

SPEAKER_02 50:24

Oh well, there we go then.

SPEAKER_01 50:26

Uh turns out I wasn't as bad a housemate as I thought I was. Yeah, that was weird, wasn't it? It was like you and I think you're a terrible housemate, and actually, he got a lot out of I mean, it's not that surprising, Rusty.

SPEAKER_02 50:40

I mean, maybe. I think I was pretty chilled, and then it was interesting. Like one of the things we didn't speak about on the pod, though, I was thinking, I might mention on the pod as I remember living with Longy, and like you'd be sat watching the telly or playing Journal of Maruby, whatever you did in the 90s, and then the next thing, like you'd look, and then Longy wouldn't be there and he'd have gone to bed. So he definitely went to bed earlier than me, and he rarely like told me when he was going to bed.

SPEAKER_01 51:05

So French extraordinate going off without telling anyone. Yeah, that's cool. So um, I mean, that there's a I thought that was brilliant. I really, really did. I just just loved it. I mean, the big one for me is this idea of resilience by community. You mentioned it in the pod. Um, and hit ten-year-old lad lost his dad pretty traumatic. Sounds pretty awful, to be honest. I mean, that's that's hard. And the rugby club provided him with what he needed, which was community, father figures, loads of stuff he looks back on and realizes what was going on, but at the moment didn't notice. That is so, so important. And how much of it it's it's making me feel stressed because I feel like that is actually actively being dismantled in favour of stuff that doesn't work.

SPEAKER_02 52:00

Yeah, I mean, community centres, scouts, I'm sure like we're not getting as many members. Rugby clubs, sports clubs, you know, selling land to to to then move outside of centres so they're not in their location. I'm sure there's you know loads we could unpack there. My memories are very clear that that long he loved going back to Bournemouth and going back to the rugby club. Like, and that would have been that would have probably felt uh I'm not gonna it felt like that might have felt like home to him. And obviously it was home to him, but that was uh that was a big thing that I I remember and I hadn't really thought about it that much to be honest.

SPEAKER_01 52:42

Well you see it replicated around rugby clubs all the time, I think. And it's not just rugby, I mean I I know rugby clubs, so that's where I see it, but it will be in that kind of support will be around those community centres, and the uh bounce back ability, the ability to be resilient in those formative years is massive, and that will have helped him to to be the man he is now, and that is and and there are you know he said he was led astray a bit. I mean, we've all been there, I certainly have. Um but there there would have been things there, unspoken stuff going on that would have helped him through that so that he didn't end up spiralling out of control, and at the moment there's a lot of kids knocking around without that, without the ability to have have an outlet for their for their youthful exuberance that is going to be channelled into a direction that's a bit more less helpful for them. So I just think it's massive, and I it's so so important. It's got me thinking I really need to get back involved in community sports clubs because it's it's the place to help people, isn't it? It it really is.

SPEAKER_02 53:54

Yeah, it's uh I'll go on my RFU rant now as well because they're not engaging with England Touch, but like again, like touch rugby is uh a way of us engaging older people as well. We're not just talking about young people here, aren't we?

SPEAKER_01 54:07

Talking about of course not like loneliness and connection and all you know, but an older way but an older guy meeting up with a younger guy in uh in a rugby club and talking about you know, the older guy talking about their experiences and what they wish they would have done later is gonna help that younger person and it's gonna help the older person to have someone younger to connect to it's it's just massive and it's and it's disappearing a bit and it's it's really sad. And I'm I'm thinking that's something that really ought to be a bit of a focus for those of us who care. Um so yeah, that's massive for me.

SPEAKER_02 54:41

Well there you go, you'll be you'll be down the rugby club in Porto pretty soon. How cool, what was your second thing? What was your second thing?

SPEAKER_01 54:48

My second thing, well, was prep. I mean it's the red and blue stuff and the hit him talking about the math and the sab and how he prepared for things. Um you know, I it's interesting when you talk about the stuff that happens that you can't control and not worry about it. I think you do need to worry about it, and he did. He's like he scenario planning, what if someone runs past me? Well, how am I going to react? And because he'd thought about that, he was then able to not go into uber competitive international rugby play and try and run past. He was able to go, no, I I know that I know how I feel right now, and actually, what I need is not to chase that person but to to run my own place and not do Forrest Gump at the start of a harris half marathon rusty. Um because yeah, um, but I I just think again, massive, just massive. That is. I mean that that it and it's overlooked all the time. Mindset, and it's you know, you think, oh, it's something complicated. It's not, it's just think if this happens, how do I how will I choose to react? And because you've planned it, you've got a better chance of it going that way. It's genius, but forehead slappingly obvious as a lot of this stuff often is.

SPEAKER_02 55:59

Yeah, it's uh yeah, there's two tools that people can use. One is the it's it's gazing red to blue stuff. So if people want to Google that, and the other one is yeah, like uh a Gary Klein pre-mortem, like uh let's imagine some stuff's gone wrong, like one of the reasons. So yeah, long he's performing some helpful mental simulations before it happens, so that probably doesn't end up seeing as big a hole as uh as he might have otherwise.

SPEAKER_01 56:26

Uh yeah, well what about you? What did what what were you taking away?

SPEAKER_02 56:31

Two things really one's perspective, like you know, you see you see that, don't you, when you think the fact that you've got a macadamia and that's like the end of the world, and then some people are pushing someone in a chair over the desert. So perspective is a really helpful skill to have. Um, and then the other one was just like yeah, either choose your teachers or meet your teachers. So it doesn't surprise me. He mentioned Steve Black. I've met Blackie a couple of times. I wish I'd met him more, wish I'd known him more. Fletch speaks super highly of him. Um, huge impact on people. Um, yeah, probably long. He met him at a time that was pretty cool for him. I'm sure he wished he'd met him a little bit earlier as well. So, yeah, just that kind of finding or bumping into or tripping over good teachers is uh that'd be very helpful.

SPEAKER_01 57:22

That's huge, isn't it? Because I'm working, I'm in in the business side at the moment where I'm doing a lot of coaching. One of the things is trying to help people find mentors, and actually, I think you can actively go and find people you think are gonna help you and and and talk to other people. In fact, I was uh I I was with my counsellor this morning and she sent me someone to help me with um physical exercise because I'm off the wagon a bit with that, and she said, Oh, I think this person might be able to help you. We talked about the sort of person that I am helped by and the sort of person that I'm not helped by, and she just turns out she knows someone that we think would be a pretty good fit, so I'm gonna have a go at that, so um, and everybody's different, aren't they? And thinking about that really helps you, I think. Um what what else what else did you have?

SPEAKER_02 58:05

I hope you I hope you find a good teacher.

SPEAKER_01 58:08

Well, I'm I'm gonna look, and I think actively looking, you're absolutely right. It is it is that you know good having good people around you. I mean it comes back to environment community, doesn't it? And but you have a choice, don't you? I mean you I mean I guess i in a pro sports team you often don't have a choice, the coaches aren't picked by you, but I guess when you're in an environment that is really working for you to to get up and leave it, as happened with longing a bath, um with retrospect, he's thinking, I probably shouldn't have done that. Um you know, it I mean it's no point be beating yourself up over it, but that's a good lesson, isn't it? If you if you're in an environment that works for you, you know, try and make it better, and even better than you than you're currently finding it, rather than think I'll I'll just have a change for the sake of it.

SPEAKER_02 58:56

Yeah, I don't know, I would be the same. I left Longly with a year on my I left Bath with a year on my contract, and there's definitely a huge resistance to change at that point of bathrought B. So, you know, some of the unhelpful behaviours we spoke about.

SPEAKER_01 59:12

Um Yeah, so it wasn't great for him to stay there, but it does sort of the the point being that if you are in a place that's working, maybe think about making it even better. If you're starting to get itchy feet, it's not always the right thing, is it?

SPEAKER_02 59:25

Oh, yeah, no, no, no. Yeah, and if you're in a place where you feel like yeah you belong and it's getting the best out of you and you're supported and you're loved, like someone asked me yesterday, like if you could measure there was like three things for your best environment. Like number one for me would be love. Uh if you feel like you're in a place where you're loved, then definitely like don't leave under any circumstances.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

What are your three things? Even love. What are the other things?

SPEAKER_02 59:51

Oh I was chatting about uh your um ability to like are you in a place where it's gonna help you get better?

SPEAKER_01 1:00:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:03

Like clearly I think trajectories uh super important as well. Um and then the third one, oh god, you now throw me under the bus.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:13

Well, okay, well, I I would I would add autonomy to that. Well, you add to me autonomy, I'd I would suggest is uh is a really important one where you feel like you have a choice on how you can show up and you don't feel like you've got to be a cookie cutter in the organisation, you've got to just be whoever they want you to be, you actually can be yourself, and there's a bit of autonomy you know within within a community. I think I think autonomy is huge in in environments. You know, if you feel like you can choose to be who you are, who's gonna be the best version of you, and you're allowed to do that. I think that's massive. That comes from love though, doesn't it? I guess.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:49

Yeah. And that's a better answer than I gave yesterday, so I appreciate you.

SPEAKER_01 1:00:54

Oh, thanks, mate. Don't often say that. That's that's pretty unusual. I'm feeling pretty good. I gotta walk out on a high. Um, yeah, well, nice one. I mean, brilliant. I mean, thanks for getting him on. I actually want to get him on again for another pub because I don't I think there's so much sense that. Well, we just didn't cover loads of things I'd like to, but it was just brilliant. Yeah, but it's always the case, isn't it? I mean, we get people on, they're so brilliant, and you've only got so long, I guess. But yeah, unbelievably good. Thanks, Ted. Um, see you soon. Thanks everyone for listening.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:29

Thanks so much for joining us on the Bans Back Building podcast with Samuel Russell. We've really enjoyed your company. If you want to reach out to us, Simon, where can they reach you up?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:39

Um LinkedIn's best place. Simon Ursell, U R S for Sugar E L L. Send me a message. Rusty, where can we find you?

SPEAKER_02 1:01:45

TikTok? No, not really. LinkedIn, Russell and Shaw. And then the same on Twitter, but please uh ignore all my political thoughts.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:53

Yeah, second that over and out.